Full text of "FDNY1"
File No. 9110016
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER CRAIG MONAHAN
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
C. MONAHAN 2
MR. CASTORINA: Today is October 9th,
2001. I'm Ron Castorina. I'm at Engine 24,
Ladder 5.
FIREFIGHTER MONAHAN: Craig Monahan,
firefighter first grade, Ladder 5.
MR. CASTORINA: Present is —
MR. McCOURT: Tom McCourt.
Q. Firefighter Monahan, can you tell us on
September 11th the events that took place that
day, where you were working and going through all
the details?
A. I was off duty. When I saw the second
plane hit, I drove in to work from Staten Island.
I had two other firefighters with me, Steven
Altini and Joe Ray. Joe Ray and I both had our
bunker gear with us because our last set of tours
we had been detailed to other companies. We just
so happened to have gone home with our bunker
gear. Altini didn't have his.
So I rushed in, and I got here pretty
quick. I parked in front of 90 West. I came
through the tunnel, Battery Tunnel, parked in
front of 90 West. Joe Ray and I geared up, put
our gear on. We started heading north towards
C. MONAHAN 3
the towers. Altini, we left him at the rig. He
started heading towards -- the command center at
first. I think he ended up going back to 10 and
10 to get gear.
Anyhow, as we were walking through the
streets, the West Side Highway was littered with
body parts. You could identify a hand, small
pieces, but obviously body parts. It had that
odor. I've been through this before.
Q. What time is this now, approximately?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Both towers were still up?
A. The two towers were both standing, and
they were roaring.
Q. Both planes had hit at this point when
you were there?
A. Right. I left Staten Island at -- it
wasn't my house; it was somewhere else. But I
was on the south shore of Staten Island. I went
into somebody's house, because they said that a
plane hit the tower, and they were showing me on
their TV.
As we turned it on and looked at it,
the second plane hit. I knew right then that we
C. MONAHAN 4
were losing companies and mine was probably going
to be one of them. So I was going in, and the
other two guys came with me.
We got there really fast. I drove on
the shoulder or however it took to get here. I
parked in front of 90 West, left the keys in my
truck in case anybody needed to move it. The
highway was kind of clear as far as vehicles.
There was no traffic going through. It really
wasn't congested with rigs at that spot.
I saw an ambulance. Dr. Kelly was
getting on the ambulance with I don't know who.
They were putting someone on the ambulance. That
was before we got to the south pedestrian bridge,
before Liberty Street. You could see airplane
parts just littered across the street, across the
highway.
Joe and I walked north. My goal was to
find Ladder 5, my company's rig, and try to
retrace their steps and find them and help them.
As we were walking past the towers, it was just
unbelievable. You had to watch where you were
walking. You didn't want to step on a scalp or a
knee joint or something like that. There was
C. MONAHAN 5
just stuff everywhere.
We kept going north. We were just on
the edge of the sidewalk. We got in front of One
World Trade Center, and I looked in. It looked
like it was dark in there. I had to find 5's
rig. As we were going, I'm looking to see the
rigs. I know we normally come down West Street.
I want to find my rig, get tools, and then maybe
I can trace my way in from there.
It turns out we found Squad 18 under
the north pedestrian or somewhere around there,
and we got masks. We took masks off of there.
We were looking for tools. All we got was a
couple of masks.
Just north of that pedestrian bridge
before Vesey, we found Ladder 5. It was parked
in the middle of the highway, right up against
the divider.
Q. Can you mark that on the map, where it
was parked?
A. 5 Truck was right here.
Q. Just write "5 Truck."
A. That's where it was when we got there.
The tormenters weren't down.
C. MONAHAN 6
Q. Put "05" or something like that right
next to it.
A. It was just parked. It was running.
But the tormenters weren't down. It wasn't close
enough to ladder the building.
As we're looking through the rig to try
to get a Halligan or some tools, some
construction workers or I dont ' know if they were
civilians. They were employees I think somewhere
down there, and they came running over to us
saying there's a chief that needs to get down.
There was a chief up on the mezzanine area right
on the corner of Vesey and West.
I got in the truck. I pulled the
tiller wheel in position so that all Joe had to
do was sit up there and hold that wheel. I was
going to back Ladder 5 close enough to this
mezzanine area so that we could put up the aerial
ladder to get him down and whoever else he had up
there .
We did that. We backed it up. We got
it close enough. We laddered the building. We
put the aerial up, and that's it. Basically
that ' s it .
C. MONAHAN 7
Q. Who was the chief there?
A. I didn't get his name.
Q. When you got there he was still there?
A. He was still up there. I don't know if
he came down our aerial or what. That was right
about when the first building came down. We put
the aerial up.
Q. Could you put on there where you moved
it to? Was it pretty close to where it was
originally?
A. We moved it this way, right there.
Q. So basically just as you got it in
place, that's when the building started coming
down?
A. We got it in place, and then we got off
the turntable. We were looking for tools again.
Then all of a sudden you heard something, and it
sounded like a harrier jet was landing right over
top of us. Sure enough that second tower was
just coming straight down.
It was sick. I didn't think I was
going to survive. It was really a sick sight and
a really sick sound.
Q. What did you do?
C. MONAHAN 8
A. I said, "Let's go, Joe. We're going to
dive under this engine there." There was an
engine, I think it was at Vesey and West, I think
it was right on the corner by the median, and we
ran to it and we dove underneath it. We ran to
it, ran around it and dove underneath it, because
we figured we were going to get covered and
that's our best chance.
Although debris fell around us, the
main structure felt as if -- we were lucky. When
it sounded like the explosion stopped, the steel
hitting, when it all seemed to stop, this just
like a fire storm of wind and material, a
sandstorm kind of, just came and wailed by,
really flew past us quick.
We huddled and stayed in place, and we
threw our masks on. I knew which way was north,
so we started walking north to try to get out of
that storm. Eventually it cleared. It was
probably 20 minutes. It's hard to say, because
it seems like to me that all of the time frames,
how many minutes it took me to get there, I
couldn't tell you. It's just like everything is
just one. Your mind is playing games.
C. MONAHAN 9
Q. Most people have the same problem.
A. I would like to ask you guys questions,
you know, the times of what happened, piece my
life together.
Together Joe and I walked north on West
Street, and we found an engine company, hooked it
up to a hydrant, and we fired the stag to try to
knock down some of the smoke just so that we
could see. We did that for a short time.
Q. Was there a lot of burning debris
around or anything?
A. Not that we were able to hit. But
there was a parking lot I think on the corner of
Vesey. I'm not sure. I think it was the corner
of Vesey and West. I'm pretty sure, yeah. On
the southwest corner of Vesey and West, there was
a parking lot that was just roaring. Every car
was transmitting to the next car. This was
between the two collapses, I think.
I went over there. I took a saw off of
some fire truck, some ladder company -- I don't
know -- and took a metal-cutting blade. There
were two fences between the highway and this
parking lot. I cut the fences and, with an
C. MONAHAN 10
engine company, advanced the line and started
knocking down those fires.
Once that line was in place, that
engine was in control, they didn't need me. So
that's when I started making my way back down to
try to get inside the rubble.
Q. Did you get any direction from anybody
at all or were you kind of like working on your
own? Did you meet with any chiefs or
lieutenants?
A. I saw chiefs. Yeah, I ran into chiefs,
and they were all telling me to get lost: "You
ought to just go north." But I didn't really
want to do that because I know my guys are in
there .
I left the saw there. I left that
engine company. I figured they don't need me to
put these cars out. I started walking back
towards the towers. Then, bam, the next one
started coming down. I just couldn't believe it.
Q. Where were you when the next one
started coming down? How far away were you?
A. I think I was north of Vesey. I might
have been closer to -- between Vesey and Barclay
C. MONAHAN 11
on West Street.
Q. You were by yourself at this point?
A. I had Joe with me. We had lost each
other and then got back together, I think. Your
mind plays games with you when you see this kind
of shit. I know we were together when the second
one fell also. After that one came down, we
walked north again.
We met up with an engine company. They
were just staying by a hydrant and spraying the
water, trying to knock the smoke down. They were
just going to stay there. We hung out with them
for a minute.
Then, I don't know, that's when I lost
Joe, after the two towers were down. I knew he
wasn't in the collapse. Somehow in the dark we
lost each other. I headed back down -- well,
that's it. That's all you want to know, the two
towers .
Q. Well, you can go on a little bit.
A. I came back down, and I went to five,
and it was crushed with steel and all kinds of
crap. I didn't see anybody in it or under it or
around it. So I started making my way towards
C. MONAHAN 12
the pedestrian bridge, and I saw that the bridge
had come down substantially. But there was about
four feet -- there was a void underneath the
pedestrian bridge where you could see the street.
So I climbed under. I went under and went into
the pile and started looking for guys and
everything. There was just nothing to find.
Everything was the same color.
That's all you guys want to know;
right?
Q. You covered it all. Anything else you
want to add?
A. That's it.
MR. CASTORINA: The time is 12:50.
This concludes the interview.
File No. 911001?
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MARCEL CLAES
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
MR. CASTORINA: The date is October 9, 2001.
The time is 11:47. I'm Ron Castorina. I'm at
Engine 24, interviewing -- your name, sir?
FIREFIGHTER CLAES : Marcel Claes, firefighter
1st Grade, Engine 24.
MR. CASTORINA: And your name.
MR. MC COURT: Also present is Tom McCourt.
Q. And on September 11, 2001, can you tell he
what your assignment was that day?
A. My original assignment was in Ladder 5. I
had a mutual with Paul Keating, but the engine was
short that day, so they -- it was common practice to go
back into the engine, being I'm an engine man.
So the call came in, and we got on the rig.
We responded going south on Varick Street, and I said
to the nozzle man when I saw the damage, "That's got to
be an explosion," not realizing that it was hit by a
plane .
We pulled up to -- I believe we went down
Canal Street and went along West Street south, and we
ended up parked on West and Vesey Street. There was a
sprinkler system, a Siamese for the sprinkler right
there .
We went to the lobby of 1 World Trade, and
Claes
when we got in there, we saw a lot of damage in the
lobby around the elevator banks, and we found -- I
found out that it was hit by a plane, thinking it was
an accident.
So we proceeded up with other engine
companies and truck companies in Stairwell A. After a
dozen floors or so, we started to take breaks every
four floors. We didn't realize it was hit by -- we
didn't realize 2 World Trade was hit by an airplane, so
we kept going up. It was single file, civilians going
down and firemen going up.
The civilians were orderly and blessing us
and helping the injured down. I checked the standpipe
a few times on the way up. We made it up to the -- I
believe the 35th story. We were taking a breather. I
was on my knees, catching my breath, and we were
discussing -- we were going to hook up with another
engine company to make it up there -- easier to get up
there. We were going to have some guys just take
cylinders and the other guys take hoses, but we felt
this rumble and this noise, like a train was going
through your living room. Felt like an earthquake.
A few minutes later, a chief -- someone told
me he believed it was 11 battalion -- said to drop
Claes
everything and get out, get out. He didn't say why.
He just said, "Drop everything and get out." Probably
said it a couple of times.
So basically, that's what guys did. I went
back and got my coat, my cylinder and my standpipe kit,
and I was the last one to go down from my company, but
they ended up -- we got separated because I found out
later that one of our -- Richard Billy was on the 27th
story in the hallway with a woman in, I believe, a
wheelchair, and the rest of the company went in to get
him.
I continued down, not realizing that they
stopped at the 27th Floor. I made my way down to
around the 10th Floor. Someone said go to Stairway B,
so I went down. I went to B. I saw Faust with
Battalion 8. I asked him did he see anybody from 24
engine. He said no. I continued down.
I made it to the lobby. I did see a woman
walking real slow. I walked behind them. She was
being helped. I don't remember if it was a fireman or
EMT . I got -- I just wanted to get some fresh air, so
I went around them. I made it to the lobby.
I saw building employees running around.
There was a lot of debris in the lobby. I went out the
Claes
same way I came in. That was on the northwest corner
of tower -- 1 World Trade.
Q. On the map on there?
A. I went out a window that was taken out,
because I knew my engine was parked on that side. I
made it out to the -- I saw a man in the courtyard. He
was waving me out, like come on out, get out of there.
I didn't look up. I just went out to the street.
When I got out to the street, I looked up,
not believing what I was looking at. I saw three
people jump out of the building, and it started to
collapse, and I took off north on West Street. I made
it behind an engine. I was only carrying my coat. I
had time to put it over my head. I was at the back
step with another fireman. I don't know who it was.
Finally when the dust cleared, I started
walking north on West Street for a couple of blocks. I
didn't see the rest of my company. I saw some members
from Ladder 8, and I decided to go back to the engine,
because it was still running when I went out the first
time, so when I went back to Engine 24, which was
parked on the Vesey and West, it was still running, but
the supply line was severed and there was a lot of dust
and debris on the ground.
Claes
It was -- I believe Engine 239 was a couple
of blocks north on West Street, who were originally
supplying 24 engine. They --
Q. Can you mark on the map where you believe
Engine 239 was?
A. I'm only guessing that they were up the
block .
Q. Where was the chauffeur from 24? He was
still at the rig or he --
A. I didn't see the chauffeur. I don't know
what happened to anybody. That's why I went back to
the engine, hoping that I'd find somebody from my
company.
I got no response on the radio. I found out
later they went to the hospital, and I didn't -- I
didn't know where the chauffeur was, so I went back to
24 engine. I went back to the engine. It was still
running, still hooked up to the Siamese.
Firemen were taking hand lines off, so I had
to boost the tank. They were looking for people, and
they needed precautionary lines. Actually, it was over
here, 24 engine. I stayed with the engine, 239. I
believe -- yeah, it was an officer, I think, from 239,
and his men that were -- he supplied me -- it took
Claes
awhile, but we found the first lengths. At one point,
we were putting out ground fire with the first
lengths .
There wasn't much pressure, because when I
did get resupplied finally, I hooked up to a tower
ladder, I believe 12, that was parked or maybe they
moved it, Ladder 12. They operated up Vesey Street
because a lot of rubble over there and ground fire, you
know, going over here.
It was like ground fire and rubble that was
on fire, so I just stayed right at the engine hoping
somebody would show up from the company, at least
they'd find me, but I just felt I had to do something,
so I -- you know, I made sure that those hand lines
and -- you know, I was -- I felt I was being useful
just by manning the pumps.
At one point, a rescue company came by, and
they walked into the -- you know, this is after the
collapses. I they walked in. I guess they did their
thing. I guess they were -- actually I don't know what
they were doing. They must have got off. You know,
they were off that day and went back to the company to
gear up and made it there on their own.
Q. How was your breathing with all the dust and
Claes
the debris?
A. Oh, at the -- after the collapse, I was
gagging behind the engine, and there was -- my throat
was caked up with this stuff. I almost threw up.
Couldn't see the hand in front of my face.
Eventually the dust cleared. That's -- and
after that, I picked up my cylinder and my coat and
went up West Street, north on West Street, but then I
came back after my eyes were all itchy.
Q. Smoke got cleared a little bit when you went
back?
A. Yeah. After the dust cleared, I went back
and operated the engine. I wasn't in any condition to
climb through the rubble, but I felt, you know, I was
being useful at manning the engine.
Q. Right.
A. Because of the ground fire. They ended up
taking a multiversile tower ladder and two hand lines.
I believe the hand lines were mostly because there was
guys operating, searching over the terrace.
Let me see. There is like a terrace there
and then the building. This building ended up -- there
was a lot of rubble over here, of course. I guess
that's between 8 World Trade and 1 World Trade that was
Claes
on fire. This building -- I was watching the fire,
started in this corner.
Q. Which building was that?
A. 8 World Trade, U.S. Customs building, and I
guess about six stories, and it was on the 5th Floor,
and then it just went from south to north in the course
of the day. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade
burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it
was so much chaos looking for missing members.
Q. Did you end up going to the hospital or were
you injured in any way or --
A. Yeah. When I was running, some hot stuff
went down by back, because I didn't have time to put my
coat back on, and I had some -- well, I guess between
first and second degree burns on my back, ended up in
the crack of my ass, and that's where the worst -- the
worst ones turned out to be, because I was covering
myself, and I couldn't -- it finally settled.
Q. Went down to your back?
A. Yeah, in my bunker pants.
Q. Did you get any first-aid?
A. I did. About four o'clock -- no, actually, I
got some first-aid by some EMTs that were parked, I
think on Vesey -- yeah, at the intersection of Vesey
10
Claes
and West I got some first-aid.
Q. This was how much after?
A. A few hours afterwards. A few hours
afterwards, because I was going to get to some water.
I ran out of cigarettes. I was hoping to grub a
cigarette .
Q . I'm with you .
A. All right. So I did get some first-aid
earlier in the day, but finally after 3:30, quarter to
four, I was feeling nauseous, and I wasn't sure why.
I thought maybe the burns were affecting me
somehow, so I ended up going to the triage at
Stuyvesant High School, and I found -- I was looking
for the command post, and there were a lot of firemen,
I guess who came after the fact.
I got to triage. They put some cream on my
burns and flushed out my eyes for the first time, and I
-- like my eyes -- I mean, I had great glasses to
read, but I used to be able to read the paper with good
light, but I couldn't even do that for a couple of
weeks. They finally got better.
And then I sat around. I found out the rest
of the guys were okay. They went to the hospital. I
saw the chauffeur there. That was at Stuyvesant High
11
Claes
School. Well, actually it was on West Street right
outside Stuyvesant High School. They thought -- they
were relieved, because they thought I was missing.
I did see members that came after the fact
that were -- you know, but they weren't from the
company. They came from home, but I guess they stayed
looking for members that were missing and never went
back to where the triage was by Stuyvesant High
School .
What else? So by six o'clock I decided let
me go home. I called my wife finally, because the
phones weren't working around ground zero, so I found
someone with a phone at four o'clock. I called home,
and she was relieved, and I sat around there to rest,
and I walked to the firehouse, and I made it to Canal
Street, and I saw another fireman, a messenger I
believe he was, and he drove me to the firehouse, and I
took a shower and talked to the guys for awhile, and I
was hoping they would find guys from Ladder 8 -- Ladder
5, rather, and that's that.
The next day I came back just to see what was
going on. I was in no condition to go back there. And
I worked Thursday. I was -- it was 24 on, 24 off. So
I came in Thursday morning, and we didn't even have a
12
Claes
fire truck until earlier that afternoon.
The shops did a great job fixing it up. It
was missing gauges, the gauges on the pump, and the
windshield was broken, and cabinet doors were bent. It
was missing a lot of hose and tools. So we got it back
that afternoon. We cleaned it up Thursday afternoon.
I believe they took it to the Sanitation
Department, and they power washed it, and we got it
back here. We had to hose the inside out, and we
stocked it with whatever we had in the tool shed, and
we went back in service around six o'clock that night.
We didn't have many runs, but I think that
was the only operating engine covering lower Manhattan,
except for the one that was operating within the
collapse zone, the ground zero.
We did go back Thursday night. Was it
Thursday? I think yeah, we did go back. It was our
turn to good back to ground zero, and all I did was
fill buckets with dust and debris. It rained that
night, so we went back to the -- after a number of
hours, we went back to the firehouse.
I was up all night, and Friday morning I went
to the medical office, and they gave me a prescription
for antibiotics, told me to keep -- it was starting to
13
Claes
get infected, my burns, so they told me -- they put me
light duty.
So Saturday I came back to the firehouse, and
I was due to work at my light-duty position at Rac 5
Sunday morning. I went home -- when I got home Monday
morning, we started with wakes and funerals all that
week, because they did recover guys from Ladder 5, so
we were off.
Basically, I didn't come back to the
firehouse until the following week. The following week
after Greg Sausito's memorial Mass, and then we were
on -- when I was scheduled to come back to work. They
went back to the regular schedule.
And that's about it.
MR. CASTORINA: The time concludes this
interview is 12:05.
File No. 9110020
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER KEVIN MURRAY
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
2
K. Murray
MR. MURAD/CUNDARI: Today is October 9,
2001. The time is 1240 hours and my name is
Murray Murad/George Cundari of the New York
City Fire Department. I am conducting an
interview with --
A. Firefighter, Third Grade, Kevin Murray,
assigned to ladder 18 that day of the Fire
Department of the City of New York.
Q. I am currently at Ladder 11 and Engine 28
regarding the events on September 11, 2001.
Firefighter Murray, do you want to give your account
of the tragic day?
A. Okay. I'll start from the beginning. I
came to Ladder 11. I was -- I knew I was being
detailed to 18 Truck and I thought I was riding for
somebody on 11 Truck when the first plane hit. The
second alarm was given, 28 Engine was turned out and
I had somebody relieve me on 11 Truck so I could get
over to 18 Truck in case they went on the box. I
got over to 18 Truck. I was assigned by Lieutenant
Borega, I was assigned the can and shortly after
that the fifth alarm was given for the first tower
and we went to -- 18 Truck was assigned. That's
just about the same time that the second plane had
3
K. Murray
hit, because we still saw kind of the explosion when
we got onto the FDR, because they're pretty close.
On the FDR, there is a lot of traffic on the
FDR and we saw -- I don't know which tower it was,
but I think it was Tower 2, what looked like a hole
where the fire was. That looked like a plane had
gone through it.
Q. So that would probably be the south tower?
A. Probably the south tower, right, because
we were coming from the FDR. So the south tower is
closer. So probably the south tower. We saw -- I
couldn't believe what I was looking at. We got
under the bridge that goes from the FDR into West
Street and there was -- it was unbelievable. There
was jumpers everywhere, there was bodies everywhere,
pieces of plane everywhere. It didn't seem like a
lot of firemen everywhere. There was rigs parked in
a couple of different areas, but you didn't see a
lot of firemen, at all.
Q. Would you happen to know basically or to
the best of your knowledge, where you saw those
rigs?
A. There was a couple of rigs parked in front
of the north tower and a couple of rigs parked --
4
K. Murray
there was a bridge that comes across where Liberty
Street is and there was a van fire right next to
that. I remember seeing that when I came in. And I
saw a couple of rigs parked on Liberty Street.
Where we parked, our rig was on -- we parked our rig
under the bridge, the pedestrian bridge of -- that
comes from 1 World Trade across the street to the
Financial Center, the pedestrian bridge. That's
where we parked our rig under.
Q. Were you able to identify any of the other
apparatus or units that were there?
A. That were there?
Q. If you recall.
A. The rigs that we saw?
Q. Right.
A. No. Not to my knowledge. There was a
company that was pulled in right next to us. I'm
not sure what that company was .
Q. Okay.
A. Now we're all just looking up. The first
thing the Lieutenant said is "We're staying together
on this." I said, "Lieu, I'm grabbing a search
rope." I grabbed a search rope, we all grabbed an
extra cylinder and we started heading across under
5
K. Murray
the bridge towards the first tower, Tower 1, the
north tower. So we had walked alongside of 6 World
Trade. We're parked under here. 18 Truck was
parked on this side of the street, right there. We
walked under the bridge and then pretty much walked
into 1 World Trade right on this corner. Tower 1,
that's how I went into the building (indicating) .
There was a bunch of glass broken and we didn't
go in through a doorway. There was all glass
broken, there was glass everywhere and there was
bodies everywhere. Everywhere that you looked there
was a body or mush, you know. We got into -- the
command center was somewhere in here or there was a
bunch of chiefs somewhere in here (indicating) .
When we got in there, there was a lot of people not
knowing what to do. Van Essen was there. Van Essen
came over to 18 Truck.
Q. This is the north tower; correct?
A. North tower. Van Essen came over to the
18 Truck as soon as we got into the building or
shortly thereafter and said, "Forget about the fire.
Just get the people out." That's what they actually
told us and these people -- we're waiting to get a
sign basically.
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K. Murray
So we stood over here on the northern most
wall, the exposure 4 wall -- the exposure 2 wall and
waited to get a sign. 21 Engine was doing the same
thing, standing there with us and we were waiting to
get a sign. I actually helped Father Judge into the
building, because he went under one of those --
where the glass was, they had these metal bars going
across and he had to bend over and walk under it.
So I helped him into the building and then they
said, we're going to be sent to the third floor and
above. To start working our way up to start doing
the search.
Now my father works in the building and I'm
looking for a directory to see where he worked and
we went to -- the first floor we went to was the
third floor and all these people were coming down in
the rear of the tower back here. They have these
escalators that were shut off and all these people
were coming down.
The elevators looked like they were on fire in
the lobby. There wasn't smoke coming out of them,
but it looked like they all bubbled up and
everything and there was a fire in there. Basically
we took the B stairwell, which is in between the
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K. Murray
elevators. I'm sorry. We forced an elevator door
first and we got an lady out of an elevator. The
elevator in the B stair, next to the B stairwell,
closest to the B stairwell. We helped a lady out of
there and we started walking up to the third floor.
That third floor was clear. There was no damage,
nothing. We got up to the fifth floor and there was
severe damage. The ceilings had come down, the some
walls had caved in. Major sprinkler damage, because
there wasn't just a sprinkler. It was just like 2
and a half inch hose hitting you in the face when
you were walking up there. So we were walking. We
figured this is a good place to start looking for
people and we were in some sort of -- we didn't see
a company name or anything. Like we were in some
sort of corporate area with cubicles or anything.
It was almost like we were in like a locker room or
something. We had made our way to like where the
janitors worked or something. We had checked all
the locker rooms and everything else. We were
forcing some doors. We were there for a while.
Then we went to the sixth floor and did the
same thing. Same sort of damage up there. When we
were on the sixth floor, it was the sixth floor or
K. Murray
the fifth floor, we were helping the people get down
the B stairwell. And what I found out later to be
was the first tower had collapsed.
Q. The south tower?
A. The south tower had collapsed. Now, it
shook us and knocked a couple of guys down.
Everybody ran to the stairwell. All the lights went
off, all the shit came up the stairwell. It was
filled with dust. There was a report that a third
plane had hit the building and then we got another
report that the 65 floor in the north tower had
collapsed. That's what the rumbling was. We had no
idea that the south tower had gone.
So at that point we --
Q. Did you get a report from the radio? Any
communications? How was the communications at that
point?
A. Communications were all over the place. I
had the can so I didn't have a radio, but I was with
the irons man and I kinds of heard a lot, but a lot
of people were trying to talk at the same time. It
was just static, a lot. What you did hear was --
what I did hear at one point, which I thought was
Ladder 11, but it wound up being Battalion 11,
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K. Murray
because I was listening for them, was on the 30th
floor. But it wasn't Ladder 11. It was Battalion
11.
We basically did an evacuation at that point
and we started trying to get the people to keep
going down the stairs, to calm down. What happened
was that we didn't see it, but a portion of the
lobby had gotten knocked out when that tower came
down, so we couldn't evacuate people down that
stairwell anymore. So we started funneling
everybody that was on the stairwell through the 5th
floor, across the 5th floor through the locker room,
to another stairwell. I think it's the C stairwell.
I'm not sure. And we started sending people down
that.
Eventually someone -- and we were basically set
up on a relay where it would be a couple of us every
15, 20 feet with flashlights showing people where to
walk and we sent the people down that stairwell.
Whatever was blocking the B stairwell must have got
freed up, because then we were able to -- we were
able to start sending them back down that stairwell.
Because people, it was taking forever to get these
people through the 5th floor.
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K. Murray
Q. And were all you guys still together at
the same time or were you separated?
A. We were spread out on the 5th floor, but
we were all together. We were all there.
Q. Okay were you also on channel 1?
A. Yes. We were always on channel 1.
Q. At any time did they advise you to switch
to another channel?
A. I heard something about somebody being in
a different tower or something, switch to channel 3.
But I didn't have a radio, so I didn't really think
about that.
Q. When you were in the second collapse, of
the north tower, do you recall the individuals or
the companies that were with you?
A. 28 Engine was with us when we left the
building. They weren't with us on the floor when we
came down. After that, after we got everybody out,
it was all firemen in the stairwells, in the B
stairwell and I saw a guy from 16 Engine that I knew
on the stairwell. We kind of waved to each other.
I saw a guy from 15 Engine in the stairwell.
Q. Do you recall any of their names by
chance?
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K. Murray
A. Yes. Jimmy Hynes from 15 Engine, I saw
him in the stairwell. He's okay. Pete Fallucca
from 16 Engine, I saw him. He's okay. And this is
all in the stairwell coming down. We went down to
the lobby. Because once the firemen were all
evacuating, we decided to evacuate with them. We
went down to the lobby, this is the first time I got
to see the lobby. We were missing Charlie Maloney
from 18 Truck. We didn't know where he was. I
think he was the irons with me that day. Because he
had gone down to the front of the stairwell to guide
civilians out the stairwell. When we got to the
lobby and saw so the lobby was devastated, we
thought maybe he got killed in that. But he wound
up being okay later on.
What happened was we got down to the lobby and
a guy from Rescue 1, I don't know his name, came
over to 18 Truck and said, "You gotta help us if you
got any steam left." He was all bloodied up. He
goes, "My company is trapped upstairs and we got
more companies trapped upstairs." He goes, "If you
got anything left, come with me."
We run up the stairs. We started going back
up. Now all these firemen are evacuating the
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K. Murray
building, we start going back up the B stairwell.
We made it to the 5th floor and then there was a
report of major gas, a gas leak on the 5th floor.
So now I'm heading back up the stairs to the 20
something floor and there was some sort of gas leak
on the 5th floor. I smelled it, but I couldn't tell
if it was a gas leak or anything, but you definitely
smelled something that wasn't there when we were
doing the evacuation.
Q. Was there any conversation when you guys
were going back up and there were firefighters
descending down? Was there any conversation between
the two groups?
A. More so through Lieutenants, but, you
know, just basically. "Be safe." No one said
anything about the tower having gone down. I don't
think a lot of people knew that it had gone down.
We didn't know.
So when we got up to the 5th floor and we
smelled that gas and we saw these guys evacuating,
we said, "We better get out of here." So we started
heading down again. The guy from Rescue kept going
up. He didn't stay with us. I don't know his name.
A short, stocky guy.
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K. Murray
Q. Was the stairwell lit?
A. We removed an injured civilian at the
beginning and a couple of hundred civilians through.
You know, getting them through that stairwell. But
other than that, we didn't carry anybody out. The
civilians were kind of -- once the collapse
happened, they were shot. But they weren't
panicking, running or anything like that. They were
kind of staying calm.
Q. Given the current known status of the
missing, the injured, deceased members, who did you
see and where did you see them and what were they
doing at the time? Was there any verbal
interaction? Like I asked before when you guys were
up and down the staircase. Did you last see
someone?
A. When we came down to the lobby, we saw 2 8
Engine. We also saw 4 Engine. 4 Engine was in the
lobby with us . There was another company that was
back -- I don't know what company it was. It was
back by the escalators, walking towards the front of
the lobby. I think it was an Engine Company. I'm
not sure.
We had a guy from 28 Engine, Roy Chelsen, had
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K. Murray
said, We saw all these jumpers coming down, a lot of
glass was coming down, said we should run.
Lieutenant Becker and Roy, who is a senior man said,
"Let's run." They ran out Tower 1, alongside World
Trade 6 and we had said -- 18 Truck conferred too
and said, "We should go too." But the thing we were
scared about was that the jumpers were coming down
and all the glass was coming down. There was a lot
more jumpers coming down at that time. And there
was a guy under the bridge screaming, "Come on.
Come on. Come on." You know. We ran. A couple of
jumpers just missed me and the roof man.
We got under the bridge and we stopped, because
my hook got caught in Harry's suspenders and his
radio. It took me forever to get my hook out of his
thing. We thought we were safe at that point. We
saw a guy, I think big Port Authority Police or
somebody had a guy locked up in handcuffs right in
front of us and there was a guy, a rig right there.
Q. You can use the diagram to show us.
A. There was a rig right here. Actually,
even closer. It was right as soon you got onto the
street. There was a rig and a couple of guys
sitting on the back of the rig.
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K. Murray
Q. At West and Vesey?
A. Yeah. Right in front of World Trade,
right under the bridge. And they were all messed up.
You know, like exhausted and they were sitting
there. We walked -- now we're walking. This guy,
they were locking up this guy a little bit from
Vesey, right here. A little bit south of Vesey
Street on west. We started walking when the second
tower --
Q. They are describing it as the north tower.
A. The north tower came down.
Q. Where did you exit out of?
A. The same place --
Q. The same way you went in? Okay. You went
north on West Street?
A. We went north on West Street. We decided
not to go to our rig, because we saw a lot of people
up here, so we started going towards them. When the
tower started -- there was a big explosion that I
heard and someone screamed that it was coming down
and I looked away and I saw all the windows
domino -- you know, dominoeing up and then come
down. We were right in front of 6, so we started
running and how are you going to outrun the World
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K. Murray
Trade Center? So we threw our tools and I dove
under a rig. The chauffeur Hughey from 18 Truck
dove with me. The rest of 18 Truck dove under
something else. Not the same rig as us, and then it
came down. I don't even think we made it to Vesey
Street. We might have been right on the corner of
Vesey Street.
Q. And were the guys from 18 safe and
accounted for?
A. Well, not at that point, but eventually
through the day we found Charlie Maloney who we
thought was killed in the lobby. He had made it out
himself across to the Financial Center, across the
street, and the roof man, Ralph from 18 Truck had
gotten hurt and he was found at 7 Engine and 1 Truck
later on. About seven hours later.
Q. Anything else you want to add?
A. No.
MR. MURAD/CUNDARI: Okay. So basically
this concludes our interview. I would like
to thank you, Firefighter Kevin Murray, for
this interview which you just gave us.
The time now is 1300 hours and at this
time I would like to conclude this
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K. Murray
interview. Thank you very much.
File No. 9110021
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MATTHEW LONG
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
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M. Long
MR. MURAD: The date is October 9, 2001.
The time is 1425 hours and this is Murray
Murad and --
MR. CUNDARI : George Cundari.
MR. MURAD: Of the Fire Department of
the City of New York. I am conducting an
interview with the following firefighter:
A. Matthew Long. Firefighter first rank,
Ladder 43.
MR. MURAD: Of the Fire Department of
the City of New York. We are currently at
Ladder 43 and this is regarding the tragic
events on September 11, 2001.
BY MR. MURAD:
Q. If you would please give your accounts of
that day, on that tragic day what happened at the
World Trade Center regarding your ladder company and
personally yourself.
A. Okay. We were at a box. That's when the
seconds plane hit and then we took in the Trade
Center incident. We came in on West Street and to
the best of my knowledge I could see both towers on
fire, a lot of smoke. I witnessed people jumping as
we were driving down the West Street highway.
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M. Long
Q. If you could draw on the diagram of where
your resting place was.
A. I believe we stopped somewhere on Murray
Street, almost two blocks from the 6 World Trade and
another block from the first tower. At that moment
we got off the rig, we got all our equipment
together and I started walking towards the command
post. We took a minute. Our lieutenant, Glenn
Rohan, took a minute, stopped us all and basically
gave us a little pep talk. We didn't know what we
were getting into here. It was obviously some kind
of an attack and that we should conserve energy, get
rid of some tools and stay together most of all.
So we started back down West Street towards the
Trade Center and I would say we got to between
Barclay and Vesey when the first tower came down and
it was chaos. It was crazy.
Q. Were all you guys from the truck together
at the time that collapse came?
A. We were all together at the time with one
extra roof man.
Q. That was the south tower that you're
talking about?
A. I believe, yes. I believe it was the
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first tower. I believe when we were coming down the
West Side Highway the both towers were still
standing and burning and there was no chaos going on
at that point.
So we retreated a little bit I guess, right to
about Barclay and we ducked in, possibly, I don't
remember, but we possibly ducked in 125 Barclay. We
ducked in like an entranceway and just lay on the
floor while most of the stuff was blowing by us.
And when it seemed to have -- when the cloud of gray
and black crap and things going by just seemed to
slow down, we tied off a rope and started walking in
to go back towards where everything used to be.
Q. You came down West Street from there?
A. Yes. We came down this way, like that
(indicating) .
Q. Just circle this here and identify this as
125 Barclay. That's where you waited until the
debris and everything cleared?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any communications by radio or
was there still command post communications post --
A. At this point it was just -- there was
just people running past us and so much chaos. We
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masked up and we started walking in with a rope. We
had a search rope on and at that point I didn't know
where we were headed.
Q. Were any other firefighters running you
way or did you intercept anybody?
A. There were some cops running our way.
There were -- there could have been firemen running,
but there were fire trucks everywhere and when we
got in further, there was just fire, a lot of rigs
on fire.
Q. Were you able to identify the rigs that
were on fire, by any chance?
A. No, I didn't recall which rigs were there
at that point. But at that point we stretched in.
We started climbing over the rubble and the boss
said --
Q. What boss was that?
A. Lieutenant Rohan, Glenn Rohan, 43. He was
just telling us to get -- he took three guys and
said, "Grab a line off that rig and start putting
out some of these car fires and rig fires." As he
tried to look to see if there was still a command
post. So that's what we did. So he split us up
into two teams. And that's what we did probably for
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a while and I don't even remember the second tower
coming down. We just kept working and climbing over
stuff. I don't remember it coming down. I don't
know if it came my direction or it went in the other
direction, because it was just black. It had to
be -- visibility was horrible for at least 45, 50,
60 minutes. I don't remember the time at that
point .
So that's what we kept doing. We kept
stretching hose lines . There was a ladder to --
there was a portable ladder up on 6 World Trade, so
we were in this area right here just climbing over
all sorts of debris. It was crush -- I think Rescue
1 was right about here.
Q. You are identifying the West Side Highway,
right off Vesey; right?
A. It was in near Vesey. It was inside of --
it was between 6 and 1 and that's where the foot
bridge I believe is.
Q. So that's the pedestrian bridge?
A. That's the pedestrian bridge. So it was
right in front of 6.
Q. Okay. So that was Rescue 1.
A. Rescue 1 was right around here. I
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remember that. And this was down. So this is where
we operated from the most, for the first hour, right
here. Vesey and West Street. There were rigs
everywhere. Rigs were all over here, they were
burning. Between Barclay and Vesey there had to be
a dozen rigs burning.
Q. At any point did you remove any civilians
or a member of the service following any of the
collapses? If so, were there any injuries or did
you see any firefighters that were injured?
A. No. I didn't encounter any injured
firefighters. I didn't leave anyone alone. If I
saw them alone, I checked to make sure they were all
right. If they weren't, I was looking for their
company or looking for their boss.
Q. Were people still running towards you or
running away at that point?
A. No. At this point now when we were
putting out fires everyone was, you know, was pretty
much just scrambling for hose line and doing stuff
like that. Then, like I said, the boss went up a
ladder that was to the scaffold of 6 World Trade
here, where the U.S. Customs building is. He yelled
down he needed two stokes, because they had a down
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fireman up here.
So we went and grabbed two baskets, tied them
up and they carried him up the land. At that point
is when they were looking for 6 Truck. 6 Truck and
39 Engine, they were saying were missing over the
radios?
Q. I don't remember.
A. 6 Truck and 39 were together and they were
trapped and they were calling for help on the radio.
That's the last radio transmission I heard on
channel 1. My boss and Jerry Suden and Todd
Frederickson, two firefighters, and Johnny Colon, he
was the chauffeur that day. The four of them went
through this building and into the rubble of the
both towers .
Q. The both towers were down at that point?
A. Yes. Both towers were definitely down at
that point. So they went in there and that's the
last I heard from them. They switched to channel 5.
I didn't hear it given over the radio, for the 43
truck to switch to 5, so I operated with Frank
Macchia. He was the second roof man and we teamed
up in 6 World Trade with the 40th battalion. And we
searched this building top to bottom. That's the 6
M. Long
World Trade, U.S. Customs building.
Q. Right.
A. So we searched that building top to bottom
and just constantly getting dead ends.
Q. At what point do you think you guys hooked
up all together as a company? Was that at any point
or not at all?
A. I didn't hook back up with the rest of my
company until 5:00 or 6:00 o'clock at night. So I
operated alone a lot.
Q. Okay. Anything to add?
A. The 7 came down at 4:30, I believe?
Q. Yeah, around that time.
A. Okay. Then I'm wrong. If 7 came down
between 4:30 and 5:00, I hooked up with my company.
Frank Macchia and I went under this foot bridge and
started climbing on top of the rubble. At that
point there was like a chain gang of guys and we
were trying to get one of the Chiefs that was
trapped, they were trying to get closer to him.
Q. Let's highlight that area.
A. Okay. We came under the foot bridge this
way and we probably would be on top or in this
little courtyard between 1 and 2 .
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M. Long
Q. Okay. And this is where --
A. 1 and 2 here. And there was a rubble
here. There was like a big 40, 50-foot drop you had
to walk down and then back up and we had a little
bit of a chain gang trying to pass stuff out and
they were supposedly in communication with one Chief
and I was probably midway up with Frank Macchia and
my boss and Jerry and whoever else was up on top of
that rubble. So I waited there and that's when we
finally got reunited. And at that point they were
worried that 7 was coming down so they were calling
for everyone to back out.
So I waited for -- we waited for the boss,
Lieutenant Rohan, in the middle of the rubble and we
all walked out together back to the West Side
Highway and crossed the highway and pretty much hung
out by the marina when 7 came down.
Q. Where were you during the first collapse?
A. Walking down West Street. We were walking
to the command center.
Q. And then you heard the second collapse,
you said; right?
A. I don't remember the second collapse at
all. I guess it was just stuff going through my
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head and whatever else. I'm almost 100% positive --
actually I had a camera on the rig when we were
driving on the West Side Highway, I took pictures,
but they didn't come out and I can remember both
towers burning and we could see people jumping.
From then on our minds were just like you didn't
know what was going on. Unimaginable.
Q. A lot of talk on the radios or --
A. A tremendous amount of talk on the radios.
Q. Were you able to understand?
A. I mean there was a lot of people yelling.
"We're trapped here." "We need tools here." "We
need tools here." And nothing was getting answered
because rigs were -- there were rig fires and police
vehicle fires. They said the ESU units were on fire
and they had explosives and weapons. So that was
the concern. The amount of stuff that was flying in
the air. It wasn't even like smoke. It was like
dust or whatever it was. It was just lingering and
it stayed there for such a long time. Which led me
to believe that the second building collapsed and,
you know, they just kept it going.
I mean that's my story pretty much. I mean it
was a long time. I was by myself a long time. I
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M. Long
didn't try to call them for a while because there
was other stuff on the radio and I was all right.
Q. You had nobody with you?
A. I was with one other firefighter, Frank
Macchia. The two of us worked.
Q. You were together the whole time?
A. We stayed together after we left the 48th
battalion. We worked in that building for a while
and the building was totally evacuated. We didn't
see anybody and there was some pockets of fire, you
know, big holes in it, but we were -- we eventually
left him to try to reunite ourselves with our guys.
Q. And you finally found them over where?
A. We found them through this foot bridge,
probably right in this area here of the rubble, the
center of the rubble. We went through the foot
bridge and came up and there were some I beams and
there was a big wall. You kind of climbed down a
bit and then came back up, and that is where our
boss was operating up there, on top of that where
they said they possibly had communications with a
chief that was trapped. I'm assuming he was one
that they left there. Because they were just
adamant about 7 coming down immediately. I think we
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M. Long
probably got out of that rubble and 18 minutes later
is when 7 came down. So I watched -- we watched.
There was a command station right here on Vesey. We
were here with a whole group of guys. We watched 7
come down and then we went through, I guess this is
the morgue now, Merrill Lynch, we went through that
building there and there was an atrium we came
through to go back on the other side and try to get
back in to help.
Q. So you came from North End street then?
A. Yes. We came right through. This is the
marina. We went right through -- there is an atrium
here and we came through here and there was another
command post on this side and we were trying to get
back in to see what they were doing. Lieutenant
Nigro from 58 Engine was missing and apparently they
knew where he was . We were trying to help out
there, but by then it was -- by darkness we were all
just spent. We were just hanging out.
MR. MURAD: Firefighter Matthew Long, I
would like to thank you for sitting down with
us for this interview. The time now is 1440
hours and this concludes this portion of the
interview.
File No. 9110022
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIRST GRADE FIREFIGHTER GERARD SUDEN
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
G. SUDEN
MR. MURAD: Today is October 9, 2001. The
time is 1445 hours. I'm Murray Murad.
MR. CUNDARI: I'm George Cundari.
MR. MURAD: Of the Fire Department of the
City of New York.
Q. I'm conducting an interview with Firefighter?
A. I'm Gerard Suden, Ladder 43.
Q. Rank and command?
A. First grade Firefighter.
Q. Your assigned command?
A. I'm assigned to 43 Truck.
Q. Okay.
A. Fire Department of the City of New York.
Q. I'm currently at Ladder 43, Engine 53 and
this is regarding the tragic events that occurred on
September 11, 2001. Gerard, would you like to give an
account of that day that you were working or assigned
to Ladder 43 on September 11?
A. Sure. To the best of my knowledge I wasn't
too familiar with that area before it happened, but
from looking at this map, I will try and give you the
best account I can.
MR. CUNDARI: Start from like when you came
into work that morning or where you got the call,
G. SUDEN
where you were.
A. Like I was telling you guys, it was my first
tour back to 43 Truck after a 90 day detail to 2
truck. As you know those guys are gone. That whole
truck was wiped out. It was good to be back. I was
cleaning the tools on the rig and the next thing I
know, guys are yelling from the kitchen and I went in
and we were watching it on TV.
It was kind of hard to believe, but what
happened was the Engine, 53 Engine got sent down there
pretty early on, like before the second plane hit they
were en route and I believe from talking to them, they
witnessed the plane hit. They were down there. I knew
it was bad.
We wished them well when they went down and I
think me and the other members of the truck, just the
nature of the job, we were chomping at the bit to get
down there ourselves. We wanted to help out. They
were kind of pulling most of the companies from the
area and we were getting the feeling that we weren't
going to get to go because they pulled the company
north of us and the company south of us.
We wound up getting at some point in the
middle of -- wound up getting an EMS run on 42nd Street
G. SUDEN
which is way out of our district, but being that the
city was so undermanned, they sent us all the way down
there and as we were en route you could see the smoke
and people watching it on the streets, executives
smoking cigarettes and everybody was looking. We
wanted to get there like I said.
We went to assist -- the EMS run was for a
guy who had his foot stuck in a revolving door. I
remember being a little annoyed, like I want to be down
there. We got finished with that and we were pretty
much asking the dispatcher to send us, let us help out,
we are closer to the area. We weren't getting a
response and shortly after we were en route back north
towards here, home, we did wind up getting sent. We
made way, headed down there --
Q. What was the radio communication at that time
after you finished the EMS job, what was the
transmissions going over the air?
A. From the back I couldn't hear too much of
what was going on in the cab and I recall being at a
light on the way north again and we knew, by now you
figured out it was a terrorist attack. You see the two
planes, and I remember scooters -- motors, one of the
guys, a delivery messenger guy listening to a head
G. SUDEN
phone told us they just flew a plane into the Pentagon
and that was kind of unbelievable. It was all real
pretty surrealistic, but I remember confirming that
with another driver, somebody driving a car was
listening to his radio so then we were kind of
-- believed it.
The radio communication, I'm going to tell
you when we got down there I wasn't really clued into
the fact that the first building was down and I found
out later that that's what the situation was. When we
got down there the first building had been down. When
I found out later on that there was like 20 something
minutes between the collapses, it's a pretty long time
not to go with that information, but there was no
communication. Not from the air anyway. I think -- we
were 10-8. We had less ability to find this out.
People that were watching it on TV knew, like I said,
at home, but we were just on the air and trying to get
down there.
Q. You can draw on that, by the way.
A. That's fine. I will just tell you.
MR. CUNDARI : Mark where you were.
Q. You went south on West Street?
A. We are coming down the West Side Highway and
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some point, pretty good distance north we jumped out
with a good view of the tower and I guess the south
towers was down. It was buffered by the north tower,
so we really couldn't tell. We just seen the smoke
from behind it. We figured the building was there just
burning, but looking at the north tower, walking down
the block you could see the gaping hole and we were all
pretty in awe of it.
We commandeered a bus, kind of stopped a bus
because we were a good distance. We were a few
blocks. I couldn't even tell you which street, maybe
Warren or even further north from what I remember. We
wanted to get there even quicker so we jumped on the
bus and they dropped us somewhere -- I remember this
pedestrian bridge, I remember walking south of that and
I can't tell you how close we were but we ran back past
that because as we were walking down, the building came
down .
Q. That was the north building?
A. That was the north building, which for a
while I was arguing with the guy that I wasn't
convinced that the other building was down. Like I
said I thought that was the first one. I thought
somewhere in the midst of that whole noise maybe the
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second one came down and I couldn't pinpoint when it
was, but that was the case. That was the second one
coming down.
Q. So you said you heard when you got there that
the building came down but you weren't sure, someone
said that the building --
A. No, I didn't really -- I wasn't sure at all.
After talking about it later on, one of the guys -- a
Lieutenant, said that they were debating it on the way
in, saying to each other that I think that building is
down. We were all talking to each other and talking
about we are going to stick together. We knew it was a
bad situation we were going into. We were going to be
working a long time. I remember the Lieutenant telling
us to take an extra minute also. Make sure you don't
have any heavy clothing on under your bunker gear, we
are going to be here a while.
We stripped down a little bit, so between the
guy with his foot stuck in a revolving door and the
Lieutenant giving us a good heads up on the way in, who
is to say what kept us being there a minute sooner, but
we were at a distance when the building came down. We
were fortunate. I thought we were going to be sand
blasted off the street by the looks of it. We all ran,
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we were trying to break into a gate. We ran back
north, we were trying to break into a gate and get
further off the street.
When it passed us, the dust and debris, we
were at a decent distance but the visibility was zero
so we masked up. You couldn't see. We were starting
to get back down the street. We knew people were going
to need help. We masked up for a time.
I remember also, we used a rope for a little
bit. That became pretty burdensome, you couldn't get
far and you have to run back and untie it, but that's
how low the visibility was. It started to lighten up.
We went down, I guess, to right outside the north
building and as we were walking down, all the cars were
on fire on West Street, so I remember my Lieutenant
telling me and another guy -- well, we all started
working on this pumper. It was a Brooklyn pumper, it
was a Brooklyn Engine, parked somewhere a little north,
maybe to Vesey, maybe the corner of Vesey, but we
pulled the line off of that and I remember him telling
me stay on this line, me and another guy I was with,
Mike Regan, that was working with us that day, we
stayed together on the line and he took the rest of the
crew. I can't tell you exactly what he did in the time
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that we were putting out the car fires, but I remember
-- the visibility -- putting out the car fires, it
wasn't exactly what I am normally doing, working in a
truck company, but all bets were off. He told us to
stay with that line. It needed to be done.
We put out I believe it was Rescue 1. Some
of the rigs, I mean there was rigs also. I can't even
tell you how many car fires there was, but we are
putting them out and you realize the visibility was
getting somewhat better. I mean it needed to be done.
Q. You worked your way south on West Street?
A. Worked our way south putting out fires. We
even went further south of tower one putting them out
and coming back and we had a lot of help along from
other guys, stretching the line and the debris in the
street was just tough going over.
Q. People still running by you at that point?
A. Yes, stretchers are being carried out. Guys
are on top of -- there was some scaffolding there on
what building. I'm not sure. Maybe it was 6 World
Trade Center. I thought it was just west of the
tower. Maybe it was the lower portion. Like I said I
wasn't that familiar with the area to begin with.
There was stretchers coming out.
10
G. SUDEN
After putting out the car fires I was trying
to find the Lieutenant again. The original plan was
stick together. They weren't all put out either but
just there was enough Engine companies there. I wanted
to group back up with the Lieutenant. I wound up
finding him and he had -- I helped carry a couple of
stretchers. I learned later that one of the stretchers
I carried was a friend of mine actually. I didn't know
at the time.
Q. It was a Firefighter?
A. It was Lieutenant Desperito from Engine 1,
where I used to be assigned. I was telling one of the
guys in 22 Engine and they took it hard, a company
south of us, I was telling him about it, because he was
there and I remembered seeing him and I was telling him
hey, I saw you and he said oh, yes, that was
Lieutenant. I found out later that --
Q. Was that after coming out of the north tower
or was that from the south tower, where was it
basically?
A. He was being taken down, I believe he was in
the north tower and they were taking him out. I just
gave a hand. So after doing that, time was, I couldn't
believe when everything was done later in the day. You
11
G. SUDEN
lose kind of track of time with the adrenaline going
and all. It seemed like it went faster than it did and
then looking back on it sometimes it seems slow. But
at the time, I don't know how much time was in
between .
But when I hooked up with the Lieutenant
again, I heard later they had been helping people out
also, helping bring out victims, but he had gotten an
assignment. He had commandeered a Chief and said I
need an assignment. He got us an assignment and it was
to follow a Mayday that was coming from Chief Picciotto
from the 11th Battalion. They were trapped inside the
north tower, 1 World Trade Center. I didn't mention
also when we were on the way down, like I said I was
pretty clueless of the building being down and some of
the things I do remember were the Maydays, one of the
guys was saying he was in the rig, I don't know how
much longer I am going to be able to breathe. You
heard a lot of commotion on the radio.
Q. I'm in the rig, he said that. He was in the
rig?
A. Yes, one of the guys was saying he was in the
rig. I think he even gave the company and where he
was. I don't remember all the information. I just
12
G. SUDEN
remember, there was a lot of screaming and a lot of --
you knew it was bad.
So now at this time, I hooked back up with
the Lieutenant. It was the original crew, Matt Long,
Frank Macchia, me and Mike Regan, who were originally
on the line, we are crewed back up with these guys and
there was also -- it was a little confusing because by
now, the recall, there was guys from our company that
weren't working that day but they were also with us.
They somehow -- we found each other, you know.
Now we have our guys, even more guys, and we
have Chief Ferran from the 12th Battalion, is a Chief
that my Lieutenant, who is Rohan, Lieutenant Rohan,
from 43, a regular assignment Lieutenant, they were
leading the rescue to follow the Mayday. Ferran had
led us -- I don't know the buildings but he led us
through a building that I believe wasn't 1 World Trade
Center. Thinking the next day I thought maybe it was
part of the outskirts but it couldn't have been from
the way the pancaking and being back there.
So we are from another building, we went down
and they knew where the one Trade was at. I wasn't
familiar with it but we went down an escalator and came
to a shopping mall area, like a concourse or whatever,
13
G. SUDEN
and I remember passing these stores and I remember
walking and thinking there is a wall -- we saw some
more escalators that went down and up after we crossed
this long hallway, as best as I can recall.
I remember at first thinking well, there is a
wall running into it. But after looking at it I
realized it was a big section of the ceiling that just
like leaned to and collapsed. Like it only collapsed
down and it was resting right on the bottom of the
escalators, so there was this big slap of concrete and
you couldn't just walk. You had to go under this slab
from the ceiling to get into the escalator stairs and
we were looking at each of them, looking for victims
and also the main objective, was like I said, Ferran
had radio contact with Picciotto, who was trapped
somewhere in the north tower and that's what we were en
route to.
Some guys got separated. We found some
injured guys. I don't remember everything that went
on. I remember my big objective was just to stay with
the Lieutenant at this point. So I was pretty much
sticking with him and some guys I guess, they brought
out some more people so we got a little separated.
Some rescues were going on. But Ferran and Rohan and
14
G. SUDEN
me, we were going out on to the rubble and who else
followed, Picciotto had a bull horn, he had a siren, so
not only was he making radio contact but he would say
okay, I'm going to hit this siren now. Maybe you can
hear abouts where I am.
It had to be hundreds of yards away but by
the time we got up and climbed up a little bit and knew
which way one tower was, we did start to hear the
siren, but it was such an open area that we weren't
sure if it was coming -- it seemed like it was coming
from the left or straight ahead. We weren't sure, and
to the right of us whatever building it was, I'm not
sure, there was a really good fire going.
Visibility was really low. I remember we
kept saying to each other wow, look at the (inaudible) .
Q. Building 7?
A. I would think so. I would think that would
probably be it before it fell. I remember it was bad
and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that
way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way,
that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was
coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of
floors, just fully involved, rolling.
Anyway, we hear this bull horn and some guys
15
G. SUDEN
got separated, so by now it's Ferran and some of our
guys are still there but ultimately what happened was
me, Lieutenant Rohan, Jimmy Lanza, Tommy Corrigan,
that's the 4 of our guys. Rohan, me, Tommy Corrigan
and Jimmy Lanza, were the 4 guys that continued on. I
remember we had radio contact so I remember I really --
I was chomping at the bit to get to this guy, feeling
like you are going to do something good now. We are
going to go.
I remember Ferran asking us to stick tight
and I was getting somewhat insubordinate but I didn't
want to get cut off from going and making the push, so
I remember walking ahead and like kind of just keep my
back turned to him, because I knew Rohan and the guys,
we wanted to go, but I think it probably would have
been deemed too dangerous to do, but like I said, you
hear your brother calling.
So at one point, Ferran I think was going to
cut it off, but I walked far enough ahead and got
through one of the big pieces of steel that were still
resembling a Trade Center. There was very little that
resembled anything any more, but one of those big
pieces of steel with like an hourglass shape on the
bottom, I got through that and I guess that's at the
16
G. SUDEN
point where Ferran said let some of us go and continue
through .
We all got together and kept going. I lost
track of time. I don't know how long that took
either. That had to be a good little while, maybe an
hour of hiking and following this bull horn still. It
was all craters and beams and what not. Not that we
lost, but we separated from the original amount of
guys. So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it
and I remember it would have at one point been an
easier path to go towards our right, but being building
7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with
that fire, we decided to stay away from that because
things were just crackling, falling and what not.
So we decided to go straight and which kind
of made us like go down craters and up. After climbing
beams for a while as we got closer, he was saying he
sees light and we are trying to figure out he where he
is still. He says he sees light and things are
starting to clear up a little bit. He was seeing
daylight. He had started to mention he was seeing
daylight. I was going ahead a little more and at one
point we asked him do you see anything that resembles
anything .
17
G. SUDEN
We asked him -- there was another wall ahead
that resembled I guess, like I said the hourglass,
there was another piece of steel there and we said do
you see that. He said yes it's right in front of me,
so we knew he was on the other side of that looking at
it towards us. We were there. So we said we are
almost there. I guess it was comforting, like, he knew
we were coming and so we had an idea, the bull horn was
coming in clearer now.
So I went ahead, when I got through that
steel and up a little further, I saw through and the
smoke was moving like clouds, so one second you would
see a little better and I remember yelling back and
saying I see them. The first person I saw was a
civilian and where they were was at the highest point
in the rubble of what was left of the stairwell they
were in. I think he said it was the C stairwell. I'm
not sure. That was the highest point of the rubble and
the only thing that -- the only void above the top of
the pile and that's where they were; Picciotto, the
Chief, was in, like, under the ceiling, under the very
top of that, which was just rubble on top of pancaked
stair slabs, the landings of the stairwell.
You could see straight through the stairs but
G. SUDEN
like I said, the first thing, I didn't even see them.
The first thing I saw with the clouds and through the
smoke was this civilian and I remember saying -- I
thought it was a fireman. One of the guys
(inaudible) . He was sitting on top of the pile with a
pole or probably what was the stand pipe coming out at
an angle. He was kind of holding on to that ready to
slide off the top of that.
I remember yelling from 30 yards away, hey, I
see you. I have a personal rope in my pocket. Don't
worry. I will give it to you. You can -- you will be
able to slide down. Then I started to see Picciotto
and those guys. I am like hey. Then as I get closer I
realize, I'm talking to Charley and I realize that that
guy is a civilian so I'm not going to be able to give
him a rope. He is not going to be able -- he doesn't
have a harness like we wear or whatever. I told him to
sit tight, we will whatever, something will come, a
ladder or a rope.
Picciotto, in the meantime, they were shook
up. There was him and a few other guys standing there,
so later on we learned how many people and who was who
and there was a couple of civilians in there too. But
Picciotto passed me a rope. There was a big crater in
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G. SUDEN
front of them. They were on the stairwell. It became
almost like a balcony for them because the wall was
blown out on the front side while I was looking at
them. There was a big hole there, so they were
reluctant to start moving out of there by themselves
and you couldn't see.
Things were starting to get a little better
when we got -- so he passes me a rope and I'm spotting
him and they are coming out over that hole. By this
time, my Lieutenant and the other guys come up and my
Lieutenant told me that these guys that were able to
walk, lead them out. Bring them back to where we
were .
As it turns out there was an injured
civilian, a remember the black lady, I remember seeing
her, and I remember Picciotto saying that I have
contact with the Second Battalion. He's hurt bad.
That was important to him. He was saying he had been
speaking to the Chief, whose name was Prunty from the
Second Battalion in floors below who later on died, he
didn't make it out.
I remember him saying that, but as it turns
out, there was a Port Authority cop who I thought was
an ESU cop at the time. Not important, but he was able
20
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to climb and walk, Picciotto was able to climb and
walk. I remember them asking me how is the walk? I
said it's rough climbing, but we can do it. We are
going to get out of here. I know the way back out. My
Lieutenant asked me to go back out that way.
So I started a little bit of a conga line and
there was a couple of guys from 6 truck I remember, so
I start going out with Picciotto and I think the guy's
name was Dave Lynn, the Port Authority cop. They were
the closest to me and we are making a line and I'm
ahead and I'm going back out, showing them the way out
that I came in.
So as I'm going back, that fire that was on
my right is now on my left. I'm backtracking and that
fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we
put down our masks, which at this point I started to
realize maybe it would have been a good thing if we had
this mask on the way back, but then again, between the
fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I
got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was
Johnny Colon, the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a
different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.
He had called me and said hey, Jerry, don't
try and get back out the way you went in, which was a
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big heads up move, because he said that building was
rolling on top of the building that we were passing.
That building was on fire and likely to collapse more
too .
Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we
can get out this way because it really didn't look good
with that fire and my guy telling me that you better
not because of the area where we crawled in was
unattainable now too. I said to Picciotto finally, who
was questioning the whole time, I said yes, I guess you
are right. We are going to find a different way. So
we started going back the other way.
Q. Would that be towards West Street?
A. That would have been back towards what I know
is the Winter Garden, because I will tell you in a
minute .
Q. Here's the Winter Garden over here. On the
other side of West Street?
A. So instead of going back, like backtracking
the way we came in, I kind of was trying to the best I
think I went as the crow flies, the opposite direction,
straight out the other way back past the stairwell
where they originally came out, maybe not to touch it,
but to the right of it I believe it was and out that
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G. SUDEN
way and it was a good while going back that way before
we really knew what was even there. What we were going
to see if we were going to get out, what was there.
So after going past the stairwell and we
realized that that was a better way out. We went down,
I remember another crater. However many yards. It was
hundreds of yards all together, but down to the
crater. When I finally reached a certain point, I saw
when I came back up a hill, it's all beams. I saw
guys, I saw firefighters and it was clear enough to see
that we are going to get out this way now.
There was guys with hose lines but they were
still hundreds of yards down. No one was really at
this point. I know there was Chiefs down there, I
learned later, that were telling the guys not to go too
far into the rubble, trying to -- some guys eventually
did. It was funny that the first guys I saw on the way
out were guys from our company, from the Engine
Company.
Anyway, so when I yelled back to Picciotto, I
said Chief, we are going to get out this way. Relax
them and Dave and the guys . I remember thinking at
that point I need a drink. I want to get back to my
Lieutenant, who told me he is going to stay with the
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injured civilian, who was a black lady. However much
I 'm skipping .
The gist of it is from there Picciotto was
good, those guys were good, we knew we were getting
out. Picciotto said go and I went and I tried to get a
drink. The first thing I did was as I got down more
yards, got down a ways, they were trying to move in
with a line and I took a drink out of the nozzle
thinking I could get refreshed enough that way to go
back and do some good with my Lieutenant again. I knew
we were going to be working on the Second Battalion and
whoever else might be in there.
I remember trying to call him and I couldn't
reach him. I guess because what they were doing --
what I found out later what they were doing was going
down lower through confined spaces under that stairwell
to find guys who were down there, to find the Second
Battalion Chief. So I couldn't reach him.
The saltwater I drank out of the nozzle did
me worse than good, so I wound up walking out until I
could finally get something to drink and in that Winter
Garden, I just grabbed the spritzer, hit number 1, took
a drink of what I guess was 7 Up and when I was walking
on my way back in now after drinking about a gallon of
24
G. SUDEN
7 Up, when I was walking on the way back in I started
getting a radio transmission from one of the guys that
we left who was originally on the rig, had I believe
the irons position, Todd, from my company, Todd
Fredericks on .
He is calling me, saying Jerry where are
you. I said listen. I didn't go out the way I came
in. I went straight out. As soon as I spoke to Todd,
I guess he was with Ferran, who originally started the
push to follow the Mayday for Picciotto. So Ferran
must have took his radio right away. I guess they had
been trying to reach me for a while, anybody of us, the
original five, so Ferran took it and starts talking to
me and says where are you? I said well, I didn't go
out the way I went in. I went straight the opposite
direction. He said well, where are you? I want to
lead a rescue team to get in there, because I told him
about the injured civilian, my Lieutenant staying
there, the Second Battalion Chief probably being in
trouble from what Picciotto said.
I guess I was just saying a lot of things.
What I forgot was I should have just told him was that
as I walked out more past these people, I had told
rescue companies, I remember seeing the Captain of
25
G. SUDEN
Rescue 2 even and him grilling me when I told him, him
grilling me even further, where, there, I said yes.
That stairwell. You see a beam coming out on an angle,
so you got to get your guys up there.
There is a guy, I remember I was describing
and I was joking, I said you got a civilian on the top
of that pile hanging on a flag pole just being
dramatic. Describing it, that's really what it seemed
like. That guy, I would love to meet him some day. I
said you got an injured civilian in the stairway. You
got my Lieutenant's back down there. Supposedly the
Second Battalion is in, so I told rescue guys and I
told everybody I was trying to gather guys to go back.
That's where you got to go. It seemed like nobody was
really making it that far. But actually I remember
seeing Kevin Joos and Kevin Toorey and Al Schickler, I
think they were like the first guys, as far as towards
that stairwell, and they are from 53 Engine, and I told
them where to go too.
What I could have told Ferran looking back --
everyone made mistakes and everyone wished we could
have done more, but I should have told him I already
put some guys on the trip to where to go. I could have
said the Captain of Rescue 2, but he was being really
26
G. SUDEN
demanding and I was trying to describe where I was. He
kept asking, well, where are you, what do you see. I
said I went straight past where I went and I'm thinking
to myself, there is no street signs around here and I'm
trying not to be insubordinate, but I think at the last
transmission I made I had offered to go out past, ,
because what I did to get a drink, I followed the line
out to what you thought would be a street eventually,
but I dead stopped in this bar in the Winter Garden,
grabbed a board and went back out.
I went back out past that bar and told them I
see a marina. If you want me to wait here, you know, I
remember saying that. I see boats. I remember him
saying boats, where are boats. Eventually I wound up
telling him, I don't know where the fuck I am. I'm
going to back to (inaudible) .
I waited about as long as I could. I said
guys are on it. I have been trying to gather guys up.
I tried to describe it as best as I could. I walked
back. I remember when I got back to where the Captain
of Rescue 2 was and I was going to go back in, I
remember the Captain telling me we don't need more guys
up there that we are going to possibly have to get out,
so don't go.
27
G. SUDEN
I hesitated about a second and turned my back
on him and I'm going to go, like I said, and stick with
the Lieutenant. I was a little upset we got separated
a couple of times. I went back, I made it a little
side step, went back down. Rolled back up to them. By
the time I got up there they had the black lady on a
Stokes. They were rescue guys. They had the guy
down. Some of the rescue guys that got there later had
effected getting that guy down with a rope.
The stairwell was filled with a couple of
rescue guys and my Lieutenant. I went back to this
stairwell, then you had to go around it to the other
side to get back in it through that hole. Anyway, they
were down.
Q. What point are we at now?
A. After Picciotto is out and the Port Authority
cop and the guys from 6 Truck, the guys that were able
to walk out at first, what I found out later was that
my Lieutenant helped get -- there was guys from 39
Engine and 16 Truck and I don't know all the names, and
eventually we will all talk with each other I guess,
but they were trapped down low and Rohan had breached a
wall to help them get out of the confined space below
and stairwells.
G. SUDEN
At this point that was done. Those guys
walked out, they followed the conga line, whatever,
there was enough guys there to lead everybody out.
When I got back the only thing that was being done now
was unfortunately, Chief Prunty of the Second Battalion
was dead now. We hadn't had a pulse on him from what I
learned from the guys for a while. We were trying to
effectively get him out of a confined space.
I found out later that Mark Carpiniello had
went down a couple of confined spaces to find this
guy. When we found him, my Lieutenant -- when I went
back my Lieutenant, Mark Carpiniello, Jimmy Lanza.
Mark Carpiniello is from 53 Engine. He is the guy that
was there on his own time. He is also one of the first
guys that came up. Jimmy Lanza, a guy from rescue 4, I
think his name was Dave, real nice guy. The guy from
Rescue 4, I guess, set up a high angle thing and was
trying to move this guy now, so everyone that was alive
and ambulatory -- and even that was not able to walk,
but that was alive. They got the one lady out on a
stretcher .
One of the guys from 6 Truck too, when we
first started walking out, the reason Prunty asked me
how is the climbing is this guy from 6 Truck Prunty
29
G. SUDEN
even knew, he has got a concussion. He got hit in the
head bad, but they were able to hold him and walk him
out and he was following behind. That was what was
left to do.
I went down there. I was asking, give me a
shot. Maybe I can lift this guy up, we had the rope.
We were trying to get him out of this confined space,
but the thing is even after we got him out of that
space, we knew there was two more really tight spots to
get through down the hallway and then back up. We
actually crawled up a slab of stairs that was actually
on an angle. That was the slab that was down a floor
or two from the original stairwell that Prunty walked
out of. It was below grade what was there, the pile,
where the stand pipe was. There was a few really tight
areas to get this guy out that we went through. We had
to climb high to get between two door jams and I think
the door jams were about the only thing holding that
place up where Prunty was . We would have had to get
him out of that spot and then lift him high enough to
get him between those doors and then another hole and
we would have been happy to do all that, but we were
being told for a while after I was back, and I think
they were telling me even before I got back we got to
30
G. SUDEN
get out of here, because it's still shifting and it's
smoky and things are still clanging, falling around.
Q. Did 7 collapse yet?
A. 7 hasn't collapsed yet. We were being told
by -- I guess everybody was being a little
insubordinate that day. Everyone wanted to do as much
as they could, but we were told 5 minutes, I don't know
how many times. It was a long while before we gave up
and we finally came to the conclusion and the rescue
guy agreed, we all agreed, it's irretrievable. It's
not a rescue. I regret to say we left him there
knowing that we would get him eventually and I heard
that they got him out a couple of days later. Thanks
to the information, we told him where he was.
Q. Okay, pretty much everything?
(TAPE ENDS)
File No. 9110031
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BILLY
Interview Date: October 10, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
R. BILLY
MR. CASTORINA: Today's date is October 10,
2001. My name is Ron Castorina. I'm at Engine
24. Accompanied with me is -
MR. McCOURT: Tom McCourt.
Q. We are here to interview -
A. Firefighter Richard Billy, Engine Company 24.
Q. Firefighter Billy, on September 1 1 , can you
tell us about that day, where you were and what
happened?
A. We got a call for an explosion in the World
Trade Center number 1, roughly about a quarter to nine,
around there. Got there a few minutes later. I think
we parked the rig on West and Vesey.
MR. CASTORINA: Excuse me one second. The
time is 1123. Sorry. Go ahead.
A. Okay. Then we entered the north tower on the
map there for 1 World Trade Center. We were in the
lobby for a minute or two. We followed, our company
followed Ladder 20. 1 believe it was Ladder 20. I
don't remember this stairwell, but I believe we
followed Ladder 20. We basically were going up with
our rollups and our equipment. We took a breather on
floor number 29 and with Ladder 20 also.
After a while, we were there for a couple of
R. BILLY
minutes and then taking a breather. Lieutenant Hansson
of my - of Engine Company 24 told me there was a
civilian, a handicapped person with a friend of his on
the 29th floor. He told me to stay with him because we
were riding heavy. We had an extra guy. I had a
radio. He told me to stay with him. They went up to a
couple of more floors to the staging area, I believe
they went to 35, I'm not sure. I was with them for a
few minutes.
What happens is a couple of other people came
by, they wanted to look at their office, I don't know
why, but for some reason. About that time, I don't
know exactly what time, I don't have the times down,
but there was a collapse. At this time, I never knew
that number 2 World Trade Center was ever hit at this
point. I'm thinking it's the top of our floor, our
building, number 1. That's what I'm thinking.
At that moment, of the collapse, there was a
Captain from the 21 Engine named William Burke. I
happened to know him because he used to be a fireman at
24. He shows up at that time. I'm with this
handicapped person alone. William Burke, Captain
William Burke and his men show him up and I told him I
have this handicapped. I'm with him alone. He took
R. BILLY
over for me at that moment. He was to go with the
handicapped person and his friend.
At about that moment, Lieutenant Hansson came
down and the other men from 24 came down and said Rich,
let's go. We started proceeding down from the 29th
floor.
Q. Were you getting any radio transmissions,
because you said you had a radio?
A. I had a radio but I really can't recall
hearing anything. He just told me we had to leave.
Got to about the second or third floor and there was a
fireman from Squad 18 named Pat Kelly. He said he
needed help. There was another person who couldn't
walk. I think he had broken legs, I'm not sure. What
we did was we split up. Me and Lieutenant Hansson and
Firefighter Sterling went with Pat Kelly. The other
two I think continued down that stairwell, wherever
that was.
We went through the building into - with
Firefighter Kelly from 18, to help with this other
handicapped. I don't think he was handicapped. I
think he had broken legs. I'm not sure. He couldn't
walk.
Q. Was he a heavy set male?
R. BILLY
A. Yes, very heavy, and we had Port Authority
cops with us too, so we got him down another flight of
stairs I guess in to some kind of lobby. We dragged
him across, got to the entrance or the exit, building
number 1.
Q. Do you want to mark it off.
A. Somewhere around here. Whatever the exit is
here. We ran across to building number 6. Us, three
from 24 Engine, Lieutenant Hansson, me and Sterling,
Pat Kelly, another fireman and a couple of PA cops
ran. At that point they had enough men between the PA
and they had enough men to take care of him. We had
way too many men. We started to leave, 24.
At that moment the collapse came. As I found
out, that would be in our building. We went across, we
ran across over here. It started collapsing. After
that, we couldn't see anything. It was all very dark
and brown. Couldn't see anything. We are just
waiting. I'm thinking we are trapped. I was giving a
Mayday, I believe. I think the only response -
Q. Did you take cover somewhere?
A. We went back into the building. After we
came down, the building overhang, because the building
had an overhang.
R. BILLY
Q. As it was coming down where were you?
A. I was about here.
Q. You had an overhang over here?
A. There was an overhang, kind of like an
overhang. That's it. We survived. I found Sterling
but I couldn't find Hansson. I thought he was dead. I
went back in here a little bit and came back out. I
thought we were trapped, so I gave Maydays out. I
don't think I heard - somebody responded, what ended
up being Hansson I think. I thought he was there. I
thought it was somebody else from 24. I don't think we
were trapped. After a while it lifted. We saw some
light here.
Q. Did you get injured in any way, anybody get
injured?
A. No, only abrasions of the eyes. So I ran
over here, and there is sort of like a 30 foot drop so
I didn't want to jump.
Q. What street is that?
A. Vesey, like a 30 foot drop. If I had to I
would have jumped. But I waited a little bit more. We
found stairs over here. There were stairs here that
led to the street around here, somewhere around here
there is stairs, outside stairs. Went down, then I
R. BILLY
came out. Actually I came out with Pat Kelly and some
other fireman. I found out later I think Sterling must
have jumped over here. I'm not sure. Hansson I
thought was missing. When I came out of here -
Q. Once you came out where did you end up?
A. I saw some kind of command post outside,
somewhere, maybe around here. I'm not sure.
Q. You worked your way over there?
A. Yes. Then I'm like in a daze, so I kept
walking around, then I found some other guys from 24
that came in on their own.
Q. Then you started meeting up with people?
A. Then I was taken to the hospital. Because I
couldn't -
Q. Eyes -
A. My eyes were killing me.
Q. How was your breathing?
A. My breathing was all right.
Q. So you were treated and released?
A. Yes.
Q. What hospital did you go to?
A. The NYU downtown, right by Pace University.
Q. Anything else you remember or want to add?
You have pretty much covered everything. If there is
R. BILLY
anything else you want to add. How was the lighting in
the stairs and the smoke conditions initially when you
were in the building?
A. There was no smoke. You mean going up?
Q. Yes, when you were going up. When you were
on the 20th floor helping -
A. 29th.
Q. 29th. How was that floor? Was there any
smoke or anything?
A. No.
Q. Everything looked normal?
A. Everything looked normal. Never knew the
other tower was hit.
Q. When the building started collapsing you
heard the rumble and -
A. Which building, the other one?
Q. Yes.
A. I heard that, I never -
Q. Where were you at that point?
A. On the 29 floor.
Q. On the 29 floor. In other words, when you
got the signal from Lieutenant Hansson let's go, you
were up in the 29th?
A. Yes, with the handicapped person. That was
R. BILLY
taken over by Captain Burke and his men.
Q. Okay. Anything else you want to add?
A. No.
MR. CASTORINA: Okay. This concludes the
interview. The time now is 11:33 a.m.
File No. 9110049
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DEAN COUTSOUROS
Interview Date: October 11, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
D. COUTSOUROS
MR. FEILER: Today's date is October 11th,
2001, the time now is 1250 hours, and this is Monty
Feiler of the Fire Department of the City of New York.
I'm conducting an interview with the following
individual :
Please state your name, rank and command.
FIREFIGHTER COUTSOUROS: Dean Coutsouros,
Firefighter 2nd Grade, Engine 220.
MR. FEILER: Of the New York City Fire
Department. We're conducting the interview at the
Lieutenant's office of Engine 220. The interview is
regarding the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Go ahead.
A. Okay. We arrived, we came over the Brooklyn
Bridge and we wound up on the West Side Highway just
north of building 7, World Trade Center No. 7. We
proceeded to grab cylinders and all our gear and we
marched down the West Side Highway to Liberty Street
where the pedestrian walkway is. Under the pedestrian
walkway we met up with a Chief. The Chief gave my
Captain orders for us to go into 2 World Trade Center.
We went to the parking lot directly across
from the World Trade Center. There was whole bunch of
debris coming down on Liberty Street, which prevented
D. COUTSOUROS
us from walking down Liberty, and we got in front of 90
West Street, we held up there for a few minutes
underneath the scaffolding to reassess the situation,
how we were going to get into the building. There was
all kinds of human debris. The landing gear of the
aircraft was in that parking lot there. It was right
near us. There was all kind of stuff all over the
floor. Other companies near us, I think, were 205 and
there was a truck company there, but I'm not really
sure who it was. It might have been 117.
The Captain took us, we went through 90 West
Street, we went through the front door, we came out the
back door. The Captain was Stephen Grabher. He was a
covering Captain that day. Him and Owen Carlock made
it behind the Bankers Trust building. I was directly
in the middle of the street on Washington Street, and
there were two guys, three guys behind me, and I was
right in the middle of the street and that's when the
tower started to come. I happened to be looking up at
it, and from the fire floor down, it was just like a
really loud crackling noise, it sounded like a million
firecrackers, and just a wave, right from the fire
floor down, just a wave that started to come down.
Q. Do you know who the two firefighters were
D. COUTSOUROS
that were with you?
A. Right. Mike Schroeck, George Marsh and Eddie
Plunkett. I happened to run straight ahead and I went
east and I got behind the Bankers Trust building, which
has a little overhang and there's steel columns holding
up the overhang. We tucked in behind that overhang
there. George Marsh and Eddie Plunkett and Mike
Schroeck actually stayed behind 90 West because by that
time it was already coming down. They had no chance to
cross the street, Washington Street. We tucked in
behind this building and in seconds it was nighttime.
The dirt was over my head. I was chewing it trying to
get some air. We didn't know what really was going
on. I saw the building come down, but I think I was
the only one who actually saw it come down.
As soon as everything collapsed, that loud
rumble, everything collapsed, Owen Carlock handed me an
ax. The Captain screamed we've got to get inside this
building. I took an ax and I smashed the window, but
it was just a dummy panel. It was wall behind it. I
smashed the next window, no luck. I threw my helmet
off, I put my face piece on, which was filled with
debris, shook it out, put my face piece on. We went
west. We went back to Washington Street, searched this
D. COUTSOUROS
wall left for a door, and over here there is a service
entrance and we wound up getting in the door here. We
all got in there.
Q. Did you hook up back with the other
firefighters?
A. Not as of yet.
Q. Okay.
A. Me, Owen and the Captain wound up getting in
here, plus a couple other guys, there was like a truck
unit, guys I don't even know who they were, and we
wound up getting in there. Then like once the dirt
settled, there was still a lot of dust, but once the
dirt settled, like a few minutes, we wound up hooking
up back with the other three guys. We met them in it's
like a little courtyard right there on the side of this
building .
We regrouped, we got our stuff together, and
we went back out to the West Side Highway, right about
here, and we were starting to walk. We wanted to get
north of the towers. We were trying to get back up
around here, and right about here, on Albany and
Washington, is when the first building came down, and
the debris cloud started coming. So we started going
south on the West Side Highway and we got into this
D. COUTSOUROS
building right here, which I think is the Millenium
Hilton or something like that. This building has
revolving doors .
Q. Between Albany and Carlisle?
A. Right. That building right there. As the
debris cloud came down, we got covered in it, but I
knew I was facing east.
Q. That's the one in the hotel?
A. Right.
Q. Okay.
A. There was a revolving door and I saw the
light through it and we wound up all getting in there,
except for Mike Schroeck. He went running down this
way. He just took off down the West Side Highway.
There was all people in there. We got some water.
Some guy had -- I don't know where it came from, Red
Cross maybe or something like that. There was just a
barrel of water on ice out of nowhere. We helped
people get down out of this building after it all
settled and all. The Captain went and searched for
Mike Schroeck. He didn't know where he was. We lost
him at that point. We were helping people come this
way and getting them south towards the Battery Tunnel.
After that we regrouped once again, we all
D. COUTSOUROS
got everybody, we got Mike Schroeck back together, we
all stayed as a unit and we crossed the West Side
Highway. We went around whatever that street is that
crosses over. We crossed the West Side Highway and
there were a couple of car fires and some paper and
debris there, and we left George Marsh there. He's
NPO. We left him there to pump water for I think it
was 210 I think was the engine and he pumped water for
them. We left him and we went around to -- let's see
exactly. Where is this notch here?
Q. That's the harbor.
A. Right. This is where we wound up.
Q. Then you had to go down East End Avenue.
A. Right. We went around here. We came down
East End. Actually, we put a fire out in a building
that's right there. We went through here. There was a
fire building. We started stretching all the lengths
that the fireboat had through I guess it's the Merrill
Lynch Building. The Winter Garden was -- that half
dome was collapsed over here. We started stretching
lines, everything the fireboat had, through this
Merrill Lynch Building. We got like halfway, but this
whole side of the building was collapsed. It was a
little scary. We started stretching lines and hooking
D. COUTSOUROS
up hose, and then all of a sudden a company came
walking over with a firefighter in a Stokes basket and
his head was crushed pretty bad. So we took the Stokes
basket and we went down -- there's a ramp here.
Q. You loaded him on the boat?
A. We loaded him on the fireboat and the
fireboat took off. Now our line is dead. Over here
there was a gas leak. The Police Department was
telling everybody to get out of the area, blah blah
blah.
Q. Can you just verbalize the street corner
there?
A. Okay. We went over -- I guess 4 World
Financial, Merrill Lynch, is Vesey and North End, that
corner building. We went down this street, which isn't
marked here, whatever it is. The Captain told Owen
Carlock and Eddie Plunkett to go get our rig, which is
right here at this time. We were going to bring our
rig back here and pump water. That was the last I saw
of them. They're alive and everything, but we didn't
see them the rest of the day.
We came back over here, right by Gateway
Plaza, right on this corner of Liberty, I don't know
the building there, but it's a residential building.
D. COUTSOUROS
We were sitting there taking a blow, washing our eyes
out because our eyes were bleeding, and as we're
sitting there with our coats off, I look up and black
smoke starts billowing out of the 9th floor window. So
the Captain goes, all right, get your gear on.
So it's now just me, Captain Steve Grabher,
Mike Schroeck and myself, the three of us, there was
like a loaner rig, one of those rigs from the rock or
whatever it was, a 5 something, 515 rig, we tested the
hydrant and there was no water, this guy John Orloff,
Buffalo, from 201, he's a Lieutenant. The Captain
says, all right, come on, guys. We grabbed two cans
off that rig and we walked up to the 9th floor to that
apartment. There was someone there already forced the
door. We went in with the cans to try to see what we
could do. It was already vented, so it was just a lot
of flame, not too much smoke, not too bad. We went in
with the cans. It did nothing.
We went back down to the 8th floor and
Buffalo, Fireman Orloff, was pulling up. He dropped a
Clorox bottle. He was pulling up two lengths of two
and a half to hook to the standpipe. A guy in front of
me grabbed a nozzle. I had a knife. I was cutting the
rope off the nozzle. We went up to the 9th floor. We
10
D. COUTSOUROS
got there and I figured I'd back this guy up and he
just handed me the nozzle. Now I realized he didn't
have a mask. So I masked up, I got the nozzle, I went
in. They hooked up one length from like the standpipe
on that floor. They broke it one length and that was
it. It was right there. The apartment was right next
to the standpipe.
I went in, knocked down two rooms of fire,
had absolutely no pressure. There was a couch next to
me that was burning like directly by my shoulder, but
every time I turned the nozzle, I was cutting off my
water. I had absolutely no pressure. So I pushed the
couch out of the way, knocked down the two rooms. I
stood up, I got a little past it and turned around and
hit the couch. Just as I finished hitting that area
right there, I turned around, a little corner flared up
again, and then I ran out of water. There was no water
because the gravity tank must have took a hit or
whatever or just that was it. I wound up shaking the
hose to put the rest of the fire out. Once there was
no more flame, we shut down, came back out. The
Captain was searching all the apartments on that floor
and Mike Schroeck. We came back out, we regrouped, and
we started heading down the stairs.
11
D. COUTSOUROS
Q. The firefighter that you backed up, do you
know who that was?
A. No, he backed me up. I have no idea who he
was .
Q. Was he on duty or off duty?
A. I don't know. He had a mask so. . . It's hard
to tell because masks were being traded. God knows. I
didn't even know what company he was from. He might
have been from 201 because there was a bunch of 201
guys up there, but I really don't know who he was or
whatever happened. We were just trying to put this
fire out, which we did.
Coming down the stairs, the floor, with all
the soot and gook on our feet and stuff, it was really
slippery. I fell like a half landing on my back. We
got two floors down, me and the Captain, and Mike
Schroeck, we heard him fall down a whole flight of
stairs. We just heard bing bang.
We got back down in front of the building.
At that point we were pretty much spent. This is, you
know, it's late in the afternoon now. This isn't all
happening all at once.
Q. I know.
A. The time, you know. We went over to the end
12
D. COUTSOUROS
of Liberty, like over here. Well, actually --
Q. Was this towards late afternoon or early
evening?
A. This has got to be like 3:00, 3:30, around
there .
Q. Okay.
A. Around 3:00ish. Because I remember making a
phone call at 2:30, before that. I'm not sure.
Q. It's not important.
A. We went down by the water and that was it for
the end of us. My back was hurt, my shoulder. All of
us were hurting and we just like actually laid there.
I wound up meeting up with this guy, Dave Koyles from
Ladder 122, who had just been in a collapse in the
Marriott. He was in the Vista, in that lobby. We
wound up getting a ride from a civilian in a suburban
because we wanted to get triaged. We couldn't do any
more. That's it. We gave our masks up to another
company and me and Dave Koyles wound up getting a ride
from a civilian down where all the boats are. We got
triaged somewhere over here. They wanted to take us to
Ellis Island or New Jersey, which we said we're never
going to get home.
From there we wound up getting up from there,
13
D. COUTSOUROS
walking away, some guy with a golf cart took us down to
like Battery Park. From there two detectives threw us
in the back of their car and they took us to the Staten
Island Ferry Terminal.
Q. Back to Staten Island?
A. They got us in an ambulance to go to
Methodist Hospital. We both wound up in Methodist
Hospital that day and that's the end of my story.
Q. When you first arrived en route to the scene,
do you know if you were given any specific locations to
go to?
A. I don't know about that. I know that it was
about ten after 9:00 we were crossing the Brooklyn
Bridge .
Q. So the first building was hit by that time?
A. Both buildings were hit at that time. When
the first building was hit, I actually took a picture
from the roof of the firehouse. Then the second plane
went in and that's when we got called in. On the fifth
alarm we went.
Q. Just to put things a bit, where were you when
the second building collapsed?
A. When the second building collapsed, which was
Tower 1, I was in the middle of the West Side Highway.
14
D. COUTSOUROS
I was on the southbound side of the West Side Highway,
maybe one block away, Albany Street.
Q. Did you have a radio with you?
A. No. Nozzle man does not have a radio. But I
really -- I took pictures. I always keep a disposable
camera in my pocket. I took pictures coming over the
bridge, and just before I came over the bridge, I took
a picture of the crowd and it happened to catch a clock
just by the Brooklyn Bridge and it said almost -- it
was like maybe eight, ten after 9:00. I got a picture
of our rig going over the bridge. When we first pulled
up, I took a picture right where we parked the rig. I
took a picture right under this scaffolding of 90 West
Street, and that was about it. I took pictures of the
guys later on and stuff like that and the debris.
Q. Initially you said that a Chief directed you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what Chief that was?
A. I do not know, no. It was really chaos and
mayhem and we were just -- we didn't even bring
roll-ups or anything because we figured so many
companies were in, we were just going up and relieve a
company on the line to put this fire out. Never
thought it was going to come down.
15
D. COUTSOUROS
Q. Right.
A. We were trying -- what the Captain said, he
wanted to take us around. We wanted to attack on a
diagonal to get into the building, because this way and
this way, everything was -- just so many jumpers and
debris falling, all kinds of shit. So there was no way
to go down Liberty Street. There was stuff all -- and
we just heard that a jumper landed on somebody right
here. So we weren't going this way. We wound up
choosing a wider route, and we didn't even get to --
you know, as soon as we started out, the building came
down .
Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you think
is important that you'd like to add at this time?
A. That's about it.
MR. FEILER: We're going to conclude the
interview. I want to thank you on behalf of the
Department for participating in this. The time now is
1305 hours and we'll conclude the interview.
File No. 9110051
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL SCHROECK
Interview Date: October 11, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
M. SCHROECK
MR. FEILER: Today's date is October 11th,
2001. The time now is 1313 hours and this is Monty
Feiler of the Fire Department of the City of New York.
I'm conducting an interview with the following
individual :
Please state your name, rank and assigned
command.
FIREFIGHTER SCHROECK: Firefighter Michael
Schroeck, Engine 220, 5th Grade.
MR. FEILER: Of the New York City Fire
Department. We're interviewing at the quarters of
Engine 220 regarding the events of September 11th,
2001. Also present is...
MR. DUN: Richard Dun.
MR. FEILER: And. . .
LIEUTENANT JEZYCKI : Lieutenant Jezycki.
Q. If you can just give me a scenario of what
occurred that morning.
A. Okay. I can recall sitting in house watch
and seeing the first plane hit. That's where Truck
Company 122 was heading out the door responding to
their staging area by the Battery Tunnel. Moments
later the second plane hit and we were dispatched over
there .
M. SCHROECK
Taking the Brooklyn Bridge, you could see the
smoke, flames, from that view, I would say a lot of
chaos, people running, the bridges were packed. We're
continuing through. We parked around I guess that's
the West Side Highway, west of Vesey there, and I guess
that's where we parked, grabbed our gear and headed
towards Liberty looking for I guess the staging area
where I guess we were supposed to get our orders.
Q. Did you meet an officer at Liberty or did
your Captain speak to an officer?
A. Yes. The Captain spoke to I guess -- I
really don't recall, to be honest, just I guess caught
up in the whole thing, seeing what we saw, and I guess
I was just following him.
Q. You said you were on house watch that
morning?
A. Yes. I was in the house watch. I don't
recall if I had house watch that morning, but I was in
the house watch at that time.
Q. When the first plane hit, you said you saw it
or you heard it?
A. Yes. Somebody called out to put on I guess
Channel 5, Fox, where it was being shown, and that's
where I was viewing it for the first time.
M. SCHROECK
Q. Do you recall getting any phone calls or
radio transmissions?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Okay. You responded before the second plane
struck or afterwards?
A. I believe it was when the second plane
struck .
Q. That's when your unit, your engine was called
out?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember who was on the engine with
you?
A. We had Geo Marsh, we had a covering Captain,
Captain Grabher, we had Dean Coutsouros, we had Owen,
who was from 122, we had Plunkett, Edward Plunkett,
Edmund Plunkett, one more member.
Q. Were they on-duty personnel?
A. Well, it was in between the tour change and
so . . .
Q. On the way down there, did you pick up any
other firefighters, any civilians?
A. Yes. There was an ex-member who joined us
while we were down there. We didn't pick anyone until
we got there. I mean who came with us when we were on
M. SCHROECK
the scene. We didn't pick up anybody en route there.
The gentleman's name, I'm not sure. I think his first
name was Joe.
Q. From these quarters?
A. No. I think he used to work out of 122.
Q. He was off duty or on duty?
A. He was off duty. He didn't have bunker gear
or anything like that.
Q. Okay. How about civilians? Did you have to
treat anybody or anybody approach the Engine Company
for that?
A. I think that was John Germain.
Q. John Germain.
A. I believe his first name, yes, John Germain,
yes, and he did have bunker gear, but when I first saw
him, I don't think he was wearing it on or whatever.
Q. Okay. So you got to Liberty and West. Did
you get instructions to go into any of the buildings?
A. What I can recall was when we were coming
down, I guess heading south, I guess past the staging
area here, I believe it was located right around here.
Q. Liberty and West.
A. I can remember going underneath the walkway
there .
M. SCHROECK
Q. That's Liberty and West Street, the
pedestrian walkway.
A. Continuing I guess going up Liberty here, I
know there was like a little parking lot area there.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know if it's the Marriott parking lot
or it was a private parking lot.
Q. That's a private parking lot over here.
A. Oh, this is it here?
Q. Yes.
A. Right. So I can remember coming up this
street here.
Q. Chambers Street.
A. Right. We were standing right around here
when, obviously, jumpers were coming down and I guess
we were concerned about that. I don't know at that
point where we were heading or what, but I can remember
that the Captain gave us some orders to I guess come
around somehow and then led us toward I think
Washington here, I believe, and I guess I was standing
right around here, so right around Washington and maybe
Albany, Cedar, Cedar to Albany. I don't know. I can
remember we were backing out of this area here. We
were around here somewhere when it started collapsing.
M. SCHROECK
We hear the roaring and we all just pretty much --
Q. Was that the collapse of Tower 1, the south
tower?
A. Tower 1, the first collapse.
Q. Okay. The first, the south tower.
A. I guess we backed up, coming down Washington,
Albany area here. I remember guys saying to me stick
with us, stick with us, and that was before the
collapse starting and before we even knew there was
going to be a collapse.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. Dean. Dean actually told me to stick with
him, make sure I stick with him and stuff like that,
and that was prior to going en route and all that. He
was, of course, making me be aware, if anything, stick
around, stick with the members. But when the collapse
came down, I don't know what happened, but I found
myself away from everybody.
Q. Just you or were you with anybody?
A. Me? I was alone.
Q. You were by yourself?
A. Yes. I can't speak where -- talking to the
guys afterwards, I found out where they went. I think
it was like right in this building here, this Trust
M. SCHROECK
Plaza here, I believe, and I shot over here, this
building here, I believe in this corner right in here,
there was like a little doorway here where I was able
to get some protection there from falling debris.
Q. That was on the southwest corner of
Washington and Albany?
A. Yes, I believe. Looking at this map, it
looks like that's where I was. I could be mistaken,
but I think it's like in right here, if I'm not
mistaken, right on this corner here. I was there for
it felt forever, you know, as it was coming down, a lot
of emotions, a lot of things going through the mind.
As far as life goes, I didn't think there was much
left.
Q. What were the conditions? What did you see?
A. You couldn't really see much, I mean, at that
point anyway. I pretty much had my face tucked into
the building there, my body tucked into the building,
and I guess with the falling debris, the building
collapse, you couldn't see much, you couldn't hear much
but the roaring and, you know, obviously, you weren't
going to hear anything over that. I didn't think I was
going to make it in, if that's where we were trying to
get to. I don't know. But I found myself just sitting
M. SCHROECK
there .
Q. Okay. So once the debris settled, then what
did you do?
A. Pretty much I backed out looking for the rest
of the members because you could hear all pass alarms
going off, people screaming, companies calling. The
first thing I heard was 220, 220, and I continued -- I
backed out, climbing over a couple of little -- you
know, debris was in the way and stuff like that.
Q. Did you hook up with your unit at that
point?
A. Yes. I winded up hooking up with my guys
shortly after that, a couple minutes after that, and
then I think at that point we were started to retreat,
I don't know, trying to find out -- trying to figure
out where exactly were we. I think by the time we
gathered, I don't know if we kind of shot down more
Washington or maybe we went back towards Liberty here
when the second collapsed. It took a couple of minutes
by the time everybody gathered up and got together and
all the members were together and stuff.
Q. Okay. Now the second building came down.
A. Yes. I think we were more so on -- I guess
we shot back up this way here because I can remember
10
M. SCHROECK
being on the west side. Exactly where on the west side
I don't know, but when the second one collapsed, I was
a little bit further away than the first one. I must
have been around -- I don't know if I was this far
here. I must have been around -- this is where I was
for the first one. Maybe about here somewhere. I can
remember being in a building there where --
Q. The hotel?
A. I don't know if it was the hotel or what.
Q. There was a revolving door?
A. It might have been the hotel.
Q. Okay. That was the hotel?
A. There were people in here. We were trying to
get people out, telling them to run down this way here,
further south. There was some water there, which we
all needed.
Q. Okay. That was in the hotel.
A. Yes.
Q. So the second building collapsed. You
recovered. Then what did you do after that? Did you
regroup? Did you go anywhere else?
A. Once again I lost my guys and I guess, again,
when the dust started to settle, we started making our
way back. I can remember there was a girl, I believe
11
M. SCHROECK
an EMS girl, she was like all dazed up there, and I
kind of assisted her south. I think I walked her maybe
a block or so.
Q. Did you get her name?
A. No, I did not get her name. I did not get
her name. She was a little dazed up, I can remember
that, and obviously hysterical crying, confused.
Whether she was hurt or whatever, I couldn't tell at
that point. I assisted her a little further down to
where I guess I led her, you know, walk south here.
Q. Now, at that point did you go back up?
A. Yes. At that point I went back up this way,
where I met my guys again.
Q. Okay.
A. Then we pretty much scattered. I can
remember putting out -- I remember the debris crushing
through windows and I guess it was apartment fires
everywhere here. I think it might have even been one
of these two buildings.
Q. Did you go stretch the hose --
A. Oh, yes .
Q. -- from the marine?
A. Yes. I think at that point, yes, actually,
at that point we did come down here. Yes. They had
12
M. SCHROECK
the boat here and we were trying to --
Q . ( Inaudible) .
A. Is that here?
Q. Yes.
A. Right around here the boat was, right. It
was right against the Winter Garden. We tried to
stretch -- get a line in place into the Winter Garden
there. But I think they were talking about I guess an
odor, a gas odor, a possible collapse and stuff like
that, and we were using caution and stuff like that.
But I think we got it in place and they brought an
injured member here, head trauma, and he winded up
going on the boat. They escorted him where they needed
to.
Q. That's when you lost the line.
A. Yes, that line was pretty much done with. I
can remember going back this way, or at least I think
the chauffeur and another member went around somewhere,
I guess to find a rig and get the rig in place
somewhere else. We were bouncing back here for a
couple of minutes, and then I guess we went back over
here somewhere where -- oh, yes. Gateway Plaza.
Here. We found ourselves in front here for a little
while where there were a couple other members from
13
M. SCHROECK
different companies. I don't recall what companies. I
don't recall what members.
Q. What did you do at that location?
A. I can remember regrouping. There was more
fluid there for us. Until I think on the 10th floor
there was fire. We wound up going up. There was no
hydrant pressure. We went up with a couple of cans
here, the Captain, Dean, and I don't know who else was
there. I don't think initially there was anyone with
us. We went up. Whether there were a couple other
units who went up prior, I don't remember, but I know
when we got there, there were more members there when
we went up to put it out. I remember seeing Buffalo.
He used to work at this house here. He was pulling up
hose. We hooked up to the standpipe, we went up and. . .
Q. Then after you got the fire out, what did you
do?
A. We came back down. I was pretty much shot
then, a little left. I can remember falling. I can
remember falling. We came back down here, and I think
we regrouped again. A couple of members were injured
and somebody transported us to another place where I
think they went to a hospital.
Q. How did you get home that evening?
14
M. SCHROECK
A. After that point, I went with the Captain. A
couple of the guys, like I said, left, I guess, to get
medical attention.
Q . ( Inaudible) .
A. Yes. They jumped in a Blazer or something
like that, which took them to I guess the boat or
wherever, and I found myself with the Captain here and
we went back.
Q. To the truck?
A. We went back I believe to this point here
where --
Q. Vesey and West?
A. Yes. I believe it was this point here, where
it was tons and tons of vehicles and members. That was
pretty much it. I know we sat here for a little
while. I remember doing what we needed to do. Then I
can remember, I would say late evening, I don't really
recall the time, maybe around 6:00, I don't know,
that's when we were transported, the Captain and
myself, over to I believe Bellvue.
Q. Oh, okay. So you did go to the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there anything else that you want to add
that you think is important?
15
M. SCHROECK
A. No, not that I recall at this time.
MR. FEILER: We want to thank you for
cooperating and participating in this. It's very
important that we get this information. With that in
mind, we'll conclude the interview. This concludes the
interview at 1328 hours.
File No. 9110052
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER ARTHUR MYERS
Interview Date: October 11, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
A. MYERS 2
MR. CUNDARI: Today is October 11th,
2001. The time is 12:10 hours. This is
George Cundari with Murray Murad, Fire
Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with the following
individual .
Please state your name, rank, title and
assigned command.
FIREFIGHTER MYERS: My name is Alfred
Myers, Sr. , a first grade fireman. I'm in
Engine 39.
MR. CUNDARI: Of the Fire Department of
the City of New York. We're at Engine 39.
This interview is in regards to the events
of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Arthur, can you tell us what happened
that day from your perspective?
A. That morning I was at the watch and I
got someone to relieve me. I went upstairs to
take a shave and change my shirt. While I was
going to shave, Jimmy Long came running past me.
I said, "What's the matter?" He said, "A plane
just hit the World Trade Center. It's on Channel
5. "
A. MYERS 3
Him and I both went and turned the TV
on. We saw where the plane hit. At that time we
said we're a high-rise unit, I know we're getting
ready to go. So I changed my shirt. Sure enough
it came in as a second alarm, and we were
responding. 39 responded at that time.
Being that I'm the chauffeur, I went to
the rig, started the rig up, hit the bells, got
the guys ready, and we took off to go down there.
En route down there, it went straight to a fifth
alarm. It didn't go -- normally they say, "In
the borough of Manhattan, a third alarm has been
transmitted or fourth alarm." They didn't do
that. It went from a second straight to the
fifth alarm.
I took Second Avenue down to Houston
Street, went across Houston over to West Street,
with which we turned. By the time I got to
Houston, it went to a second fifth alarm. That's
when the second plane hit.
We proceeded down there --
Q. Did you hear the second plane hit?
A. We heard the second plane hit from the
radio transmit. I didn't see, but we heard it.
A. MYERS 4
Q. You heard it, the bang?
A. The bang. Then it went straight to a
second faith alarm. It didn't go second, third,
fourth, fifth. They just skipped all that and
went straight to a fifth. I said, a second fifth
alarm? Both towers are hit now.
I got over to West Street. I was at
Houston and West Street. When I turned onto West
Street, I said, "Oh, shit, look at this." Both
buildings were fully involved. A big blast of
fire was just blowing out windows.
We proceeded down West Street down to
the towers. High-rise is following rig. Like I
said, we're a high-rise unit. They follow us in,
driven by Jeff Coniglio. When I got there, they
told us pull up right behind 3 Engine, which is
what I did. High-rise pulled up right beside me
but right across from me.
At that time the guys got out. They
started donning masks and everything. I was
telling them, "Be careful. Put your gloves on,
put your hood on, turn your oxygen on and just be
careful . "
Q. What was that location you parked?
A. MYERS 5
A. We parked right on West Street, right
up from the north tower. I was further away from
the north tower, a block from it.
Q. So you were past Vesey.
A. Past Vesey.
Q. Past the pedestrian overpass.
A. Past Vesey but right in this section
here because this is the north tower here, I can
see the front entrance to the north tower. So I
must be somewhere down in here.
Now the guys are gone. I'm looking. I
see what I just couldn't believe. I thought it
was a big doll baby, but these were burnt people
falling. Right after that then you see live
people jumping. This is the first time I've ever
seen people jump like this in my whole career.
Q . 20 years .
A. In 20 years, this is the first time
I've ever witnessed this, and it was just blowing
my mind.
The chauffeur from 3 Engine, he was
telling me, listen, don't look, just don't -- I
said, "How can I not look? I've never seen this
before." Just any time you thought that would be
A. MYERS 6
it, then you'd see more waves of people coming.
It was like raining people. You could hear when
they hit the ground, bang, bang, and the body
parts just dismantling all over the place.
At that time it just got to me. I
turned around to look away from it, and I'm
saying to myself these are people. Man, there
are people dying here. I couldn't believe what I
was seeing.
When I turned around, someone -- they
said the chief ordered them to move 39 Engine, my
rig wasn't there. I said, "Where the hell is
39?" It's like somebody stealing your car. What
they did was they took our rig and put it right
in front of the north tower.
I said, "Wait a minute. They're full
of shit. They're not going to leave the rig
there." Now you see the bodies just falling
down .
So at that time a proby came over to
me. He said, "Look, I'm a proby. I'm off duty.
I want to help." I said, "Whatever you do, don't
go in that building. You're off duty. If
something happens to you, they won't pay your
A. MYERS 7
family nothing. You just stay with me. Whatever
you do, don't go in the building," because at
that point debris was coming down plus the
bodies .
Rigs are coming in. Guys are on top of
the rigs just going full blast into this. Now,
him and I ran over. I get the rig. The chief
orders me to hook up to the Siamese. I said,
"Bullshit. I'm not hooking up here." Some of
the guys get in the rig, which he did. I got in
the rig. The chief was telling me, "Hook up to
the Siamese. Leave this rig here." I said,
"Bullshit. Get out of the way."
Q. Where was this Siamese?
A. The Siamese right -- this is the front
of the north tower? Right by the entrance, right
to the right of the entrance before you go in.
The Siamese was right there.
Q. That's where your truck is right now,
right in front of the tower?
A. Yeah, somebody had brought the truck
over there. Originally we were over this way.
Q. You were more north?
A. More north, away from it.
A. MYERS 8
Q. By the pedestrian bridge?
A. Away from it, yes.
Q. The pedestrian bridge?
A. Exactly.
But me they brought our rig right in
front of the building. I said, "Bullshit."
We're not going to" --
(Interruption. )
A. So the chief was telling me, "Leave
this rig here and supply this."
(Interruption. )
A. I was in the rig. The chief was
ordering me to hook up to the Siamese. I said,
"Bullshit. I'm getting out of here." He kept
ordering me. I pulled out and put our rig right
back where it was originally.
At that time getting out of the rig --
I told the proby, "You stay here. Don't go over
there." Now there's more people jumping, more
chaos. But you start hearing this cracking noise
and thundering noise.
At that time I witnessed Mayor Giuliani
and his entourage coming down.
Q. From the south end?
A. MYERS 9
A. No, from this end over here, coming
down .
Q. They were coming down West Side
Highway?
A. West Side Highway.
Q. South?
A. He gets out of his car. There's about
ten of them. They're right where my rig is.
At that time you hear all this
crackling and thundering noise. We look up, and
you see the first building, the south tower,
coming down. I said, "Oh, shit. It's falling."
At that time, Giuliani, his crew and
myself, we were running. We were running neck
and neck out of there. I just ran as far north
as I could, looking back, seeing a massive cloud
of smoke and debris just coming my way. I went
to one or another street, ran up to that street.
Went to another street, ran up that -- I just
kept running.
At this time I ran over to where the
water was .
Q. Was proby with you, the one that was in
the truck?
A. MYERS 10
A. No, he wasn't with me. I don't know
what happened to him. At that point I just ran.
He may have started with me and we got lost in
the run. I don't know what happened to him. But
I just ran. We all just ran. I just started
running until I got over to where the water was .
I said, well, if push comes to shove, I'll just
go into the water.
Q. So you ran north and then you ran west?
A. Right, because you're running back this
way and zigzagging to where -- this must be the
water here. All the way over here.
Q. You went to Vesey and North End Street?
A. Right, right. I remember Vesey.
And there was a school here right by
the water, and they were saying that they had a
report of a gas leak, some sort of gas leak and
to get out of there, evacuate. So I had to run
again back over this way.
Now I'm saying to myself, my guys are
in there. So I'm on the radio, "39 chauffeur to
39, 39," calling the officer.
Q. Channel 1 you were on?
A. Channel 1. I get no response, no
A. MYERS 11
response at all. But I'm hearing radio contacts.
I'm hearing maydays . But he's not responding to
me. I said, "Oh, shit. The good guys in that
building, they're dead." That's the only thing I
could say, these guys are dead.
I said let me get closer. Now I'm
working my way back to where my rig is, and I'm
on the radio calling, "39 chauffeur to 39. 39
chauffeur to 39 control." Then it got to the
point I said, "39 chauffeur to 39 anybody.
Anybody 39 respond, respond. Let me hear from
you." No one is saying anything.
I'm walking back to the rig. Say my
rig is right here, in this area here. When I get
about within a block range of it, now you hear
this cracking again, this thunder again. You
know from the first one, hey, this thing is
coming down.
You look up, and now it's coming and
coming at a rapid -- it's just falling. Now I
start running again, but this time, being that
I'm closer to the north tower, it's coming down
with such a force. Debris and everything is
coming .
A. MYERS 12
There's another fireman to the right of
me. Him and I are running. I'm right by PS 89.
I remember the school, PS 89. There was a cop
waving us in, "Come on in here. Come on in
here." I'm saying to myself I'm not going to
make it because I have on my full gear. I have
full gear on. I seen this wave coming, I'm
heading this way, and it's coming like a tidal
wave just coming. I said, shit, I'm not going to
make this .
There are a couple police cars and a
police emergency van, and I just said, "Please,
God, let this door be open." When I pulled the
door, it opened. I looked like George jumping in
the air and closing the door behind me. When I
closed this door, it gets covered. It just
covers it.
Q. The dust cloud?
A. The dust cloud. It got so black --
Q. You're still on the West Side Highway;
right?
A. Still on the West Side Highway.
Q. North of the pedestrian bridge, by
Murray, you think?
A. MYERS 13
A. Wherever PS 89 is. I was right
alongside PS 89, that street. That may be
somewhere in this vicinity right here.
Q. Vesey?
A. Vesey. Wherever the school is. The
school was PS 89. The police vehicles were lined
up along there.
It got so black, I'm saying, either two
things, either I'm dead or it's the end of the
world. I've never seen it that black in my
whole -- I'm 51 years old. I've never seen it
that black in my whole life. I'm saying, well, I
don't think I'm dead.
Now I'm worried about being able to
breathe. I was okay inside. I was able to
breathe. There was no debris coming in or
anything .
Q. You heard all that stuff hitting the
truck?
A. It was just like a [sound] and it just
covered.
At that time maybe about 15, 2 minutes
or so, I hear the police, "Hey, is anybody in
there?" "I'm in here. I'm in here." They
A. MYERS 14
started working the doors and pushed and got the
door open, and I got out. They said, "Are you
all right?"
Q. You were trapped inside the ESU truck?
A. The ESU truck.
Q. You couldn't get out?
A. I'm not going to say I couldn't get
out, but they helped me get out. At the time I
didn't really try to get out. I was just waiting
to see if everything clears up.
They came and said, "Is there anybody
else you have in here?" They got the door open
and got me out. At that time they said, "Are you
all right? Do you want to go to the hospital or
something? Do you want to get checked out?" I
said, "No, I'm all right."
I said, "But there was another fireman
with me. How did he do?" They said, "Well, we
don't know about the other guy. We don't think
he made it." I got his helmet. He was from 1
Engine, and his helmet was 845.
Now I'm calling the guys. I'm frantic,
panicking. I'm calling the guys, "39 chauffeur
to 39, anybody." Now I know these guys are dead
A. MYERS 15
now, because the second one came down, the north
tower. No one was responding. As usual the
maydays were going all over the place. It was
just major chaos.
This goes on for about a couple hours.
I'm walking around, just trying to find my guys,
calling, calling, no one responding. I saw other
guys looking for their guys. You hear major,
major chaos, major maydays, everything. It's
just a ball of confusion.
About two hours go by. I ran into John
Drumm, who was in the engine that day. I said,
"Drumm, where 's" -- I'm hugging him. I said,
"Where are the guys? What happened? Where are
the guys? Where are the guys?" He said, "Man,
they were behind me." I said, "There's nobody
here but you." He said, "Well, those guys were
behind me. I don't think they made it." I said,
"Oh, man."
He wanted to go back in. I said, "No,
you stay out here. You stay out here with me."
So him and I walked, and we ran into a member of
16.
Q. What was that person's name?
A. MYERS 16
A. Then I ran into Rattazzi from Ladder
16, from 16 Truck. I said, "Rattazzi, where are
the guys at?" He said, "I don't know where the
guys are at." He got separated from his guys.
So the three of us together -- he was
suffering with eye injuries. So we made it away
from -- we walked up from it, and some EMS guys
came over and washed his eyes out and they washed
mine out, the same with Drumm.
Drumm kept insisting on going back
over. "Can I look for the guys?" I said, "No,
you're not going to look for the guys. Let's go
over here and get ourselves together." He was
all dirty, the debris and everything on him.
We called on the radio. Now Drumm has
a radio also. He mentioned that some guys were
on Channel 7. I said, "All right. I'll keep it
on 1. You turn to 7. Let's call, see if we can
hear something." To no avail.
Then they said some guys were on
Channel 3. So we switched it from 7 to 3 . I
stayed on 1, and he switched from 3 to 7 or vice
versa. Anyhow, now it's like five hours go by,
and I just accepted the fact that these guys are
A. MYERS 17
gone. That's just my account on it.
I ran into Joe Graziano from 13 Truck.
He's looking for his guys. I run into Lieutenant
Jones from 7 Truck, and he's looking for his
guys. I said, well, let me just walk back down
there .
I'm where the chief ordered 6 Truck to
go after 39, looking for 39, go after them. I
said, good, let me stay with 6 Truck and see if I
find them maybe I'll hear something. I made it
back down there. "6 Truck," I'm calling, "6
Truck." They're not responding back to me.
Finally one of the officers from 6
Truck responds back to me, "Did you see anybody
from 39? Negative. I haven't seen anyone yet."
About maybe a half an hour this is going on. Now
his unit is told to come out of there.
So I'm calling him. He doesn't
respond. But the officer from 16 Truck,
Lieutenant Williams -- he said, "Arthur" -- I
said, "Lou, anybody from 39? Did anybody see
anybody from 39?" No one knew. As soon as we
hear something, we'll get back to you.
Now I see Chief Schildhorn from the
A. MYERS 18
10th Battalion. I go over there. "Chief, any
word on 39?" He said, "No, Arthur, no word."
"Did you hear from anybody? Did any of the guys
call?" He said, "No, we haven't heard anything."
All right. Now I'm just saying these guys are
dead. We all came down together. I'm crying.
The sweetest voice that ever came in my
life I heard, Jeff Coniglio and Jimmy
Ef thimiades . I hear, "Arthur. Arthur." I'm
looking at these guys in amazement. They're all
covered up and everything. I said, "Get over
here, you mother fuckers." I was running over,
and the three of us were standing right by the
command post hugging and crying. I was just so
glad to see these guys.
Right behind them was Jimmy Bacon. He
was right behind. I said, "Get over here, man.
How are you feeling? Didn't you fucking hear me
calling you?" It was like seeing my own kids
being lost and then I found them.
We were just standing there crying. I
said, "Where is McGlynn, man? Where is McGlynn,
the officer? Where is Lieutenant McGlynn?" They
said, "He's inside helping with the evacuation."
A. MYERS 19
I said, "What the fuck are you doing in there,
man? "
So I called him on the radio. He
didn't respond right away. I said, "I thought
you said he was all right?" "No, Arthur, he's
all right." I said, "You guys all right?" They
were complaining about eye injuries.
So we made it over where EMS was . They
were telling everybody to go over that way, get
away from the main body of debris. EMS guys took
the post and everything. Jeffrey and Jimmy
Efthimiades, they both went to the hospital.
I said, "Look, I'm going to call and
let the families know you guys are all right."
What I did was I made it back to PS 89 and I
called back here to the firehouse. I said,
"Listen, there should be a captain there,
Savarese. The lieutenant made captain,
Savarese." I said, "Captain, listen, just let
the guys' families know everybody from 39 is all
right. "
I knew Lieutenant Williams from 16
Truck was all right. I heard Oscar, who was the
chauffeur from 16 Truck named Steve Wright, who
A. MYERS 2
was the roof man, if I'm not mistaken, and
Rattazzi. Those guys I knew were all right.
The other guys, Bobby Dana and Kenny
Rogers, I didn't know if those guys were all
right. So I didn't want to say, well, everybody
from 16; I said everybody from 39 is all right.
Let the family members know.
At that point we made it back over
to -- I left Jeffrey and Jimmy, and I came back
over to some staging area they had by either
Stuyvesant school -- one of the schools, and saw
some of the other guys.
They said, "Listen, go over there and
tell them where you were at and give account of
what happened," which is what I did. They were
seeing who was accounted for. They said, "You
have to write down your engine company and your
name." They were trying to get who was still
here. That's what I did.
Then I saw the rest of my guys from 39,
Lieutenant (inaudible) . I said, "Where are the
guys?" He said, "Over here." I said, "Where is
Lieutenant McGlynn?" They said, "McGlynn is over
there. "
A. MYERS 21
So I just made it over there, got him,
hugged him and everything.
It was a hell of an experience. I
never want to go through that again, never.
Nothing I ever saw before in my life. Just
seeing the people jumping was just in itself --
the tower coming down was one thing. Seeing
these people jump to their death was so all by
itself .
That was it for me. We all came back.
I came back with 16 Truck.
Q. You were there until late that night?
A. Late that night. We didn't leave out
of there until around 8:00. We got there around
9:30, 25 to 10. We left after the first plane
hit. No later than 20 to 10, we were down there.
As soon as I got up, we went down and over to
Second Avenue and just shot straight down there.
When I got over to Houston, I was on the ongoing
side traffic. I said I've got to get over to the
west side quick and down to the site.
Q. I would like to thank you for
participating in this interview, Arthur.
MR. CUNDARI : This concludes the tape,
A. MYERS 22
and the time is 12:35.
File No. 9110063
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER VINCENT FIORENTINO
Interview Date: October 12, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
V. FIORENTINO
MR. CUNDARI: Today's date is October 12,
2001. The time is 10 o'clock. This is George
Cundari and Murray Murad with the Fire Department
of the City of New York. I'm conducting an
interview with the following individual.
Q. Please state your name, rank, title and
assigned command.
A. Vincent Fiorentino, Firefighter first grade.
42 Battalion.
Q. We are at 8653 18 Avenue, Battalion 42. Can
you please tell us the events that happened regarding
the September 11 tragedy?
A. We were in the kitchen in the morning
watching Channel 5 news. They were giving a report
about the primary election and the camera swung over
and showed the first building, the fire and they said
plane, we thought small plane, something like that.
The Chief and I came up to the office, figuring that we
were going to go pretty quick. We took extra lights,
put them on the rig and we didn't immediately go. Took
the 40 and 48 first from our end of Brooklyn.
Q. What Chief was that?
A. What Chiefs went?
Q. Who was the Chief?
V. FIORENTINO
A. Chief Coyne.
Q. Then we got our ticket at 910 to relocate to
the 32. En route with that, we got changed to a third
alarm assignment for the Battery Tunnel, Brooklyn
side. When we got to there, we were told by Brooklyn
that the 42 and the 41 were going to -- we were pulled
back to Brooklyn and we had our complete third alarm
assignment at the tunnel. With that, at some point
Brooklyn took units off of our ticket and they were
getting another box, another Manhattan box, an Albany
Street box I believe it was. A few of them, I know 201
was one of those numbers on that that was taken off.
They went through the tunnel ahead of us. That was
right before the first collapse. 201 was caught in
that collapse. I believe 113 was also in that group
that was taken out of our group and they back filled
the assignment and when the first collapse came, the
reports at the tunnel were that the tunnel collapsed or
that there was a collapse at the other end of the
tunnel and we were trying to get confirmation from the
tunnel people as to what was happening. They were kind
of vague with that.
The Chief assigned a couple of units to
assist in the evacuation of the tunnel and prior to
V. FIORENTINO
that we were -- I was on the radio with Brooklyn and we
were right at the toll plaza where there was still
traffic coming out of Manhattan and our guys were
grouped together standing and I didn't see the building
come down, but by looking at them I realized what was
happening with the first tower. Then we were ordered
by orders of Chief Cruthers, to take the entire
assignment and go to the Brooklyn Bridge. That's what
we proceeded to do. We left those other units there, I
know 102 was one of them. They went into the tunnel to
assist the people coming out of the tunnel.
Then we went to the Brooklyn Bridge and then
we were stopped at the Brooklyn Bridge and they had a
report that the other side was possibly untenable and
the 42 Battalion went alone, left the rest of the
assignment behind as a scout unit to check. We saw
that Chambers Street was clear. We reported back to
Brooklyn and the rest of the third alarm assignment
came over with us. From there we reported in to the
command post that was at Park Row and Broadway.
Q. Around City Hall?
A. At the point of City Hall park. We met Chief
Haring there. We were assigned to work with the 15th
Division, I think it was, and we went and operated in
V. FIORENTINO
number 5 World Trade Center. We assisted in the
removal of 3 people from the concourse area. One guy
who had an I beam on him in the bottom of this number 5
building. We finished that operation, then that
building was on fire.
Q. Where was your Battalion car parked?
A. We parked right along City Hall park.
Q. Then you walked over to --
A. We walked to the command post, then we walked
up Vesey Street.
Q. At this time was the tower still standing one
of them or both were down?
A. I think they both were down. I mean it was
like a wind storm of paper and dust, which I understand
they said it was generated by that. It wasn't a windy
day. We operated there and then we operated on the
fire in number 5 and then later we swung around and we
were at a sub cellar fire at the Bankers Trust
building; 130 Liberty. We operated in 130 Liberty.
Q. Do you recall who was in that building?
A. What companies?
Q. Yes, Chief or anyone in there?
A. There were other Chiefs there that that --
21, 43 and 42 and we were gathering up guys that had
V. FIORENTINO
cylinders that were able to go down because it was
pushing from this sub cellar. So there was a lot of
guys at that point that was later on, but a lot of guys
didn't have masks. The Chief stopped guys from
assisting us further down the stairs without the
masks. We made one push, we expended our masks,
everybody came out and then they went hunting down more
cylinders. They found more cylinders and we went down
with a second push and put those fires out down there.
After that we were on the pile of number 2.
Q. Doing a search?
A. Right, that's how we operated, to the best of
my knowledge. Time frames and all, I don't know. To
me it seemed like all one big -- it was nighttime and
when we started out it was morning. It went by very
quickly in that vein of things.
Q. Which channel were you operating on, Channel
1?
A. When we got over to Manhattan we were told to
switch to Manhattan. We switched to Manhattan and the
Chief stayed on 1 and I switched mine, I think it was
to 5 and both radios had a lot of Maydays. When we
first came over there were a lot of Mayday calls, but
you couldn't really know where they were all coming
V. FIORENTINO
from. Then the radio quieted down after that, at least
the channels we were on.
Q. Initially it came in as a third alarm?
A. We went to a third alarm staging. They do
that when they have a large fire somewhere. They bring
units from other boroughs to be ready to go in for the
next wave. That's basically the best I can remember.
Q. You had a lot of people passing you on the
streets, a lot of civilians going, trying to get out of
there when you got there?
A. When we hit the corner of Church and
Chambers, we ran into two firemen that were totally
disoriented and had lost their company, lost contact
with their company. They were -- best description
shell shocked. We took their names and we told them to
continue heading more towards midtown to get out of the
storm.
Like I said, the paperwork that we had
anything written on disappeared. We came back to our
car later in the night. It was filled with about 25
pairs of shoes, jackets. A lot of things were taken
from the car, but there were no -- we had our masks
with us. The guys wanted to take our masks when we
were responding. We had to to like -- that's about it.
V. FIORENTINO
MR. CUNDARI: Thank you for giving this
interview. The time is 1010. This is the
conclusion of the tape.
File No. 9110067
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER VINCENT BUONOCORE
Interview Date: October 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
V. BUONOCORE 2
MR. CASTORINA: This is Ron Castorina
conducting an interview with Vincent
Buonocore, firefighter two, assigned to
Engine 278. The time now is 1325 hours.
Conducting the interview with me is --
MR. McCOURT: Tom McCourt.
MR. CASTORINA: And your name, sir?
FIREFIGHTER BUONOCORE: Firefighter
Vincent Buonocore, grade two. I had the
nozzle that day, assigned to 278.
MR. CASTORINA: The day of September
11th?
FIREFIGHTER BUONOCORE: Yes.
Q. Can you tell me what your assignment
was for that day and whatever you can remember?
A. Yeah. I was assigned the nozzle that
day. I remember walking into the kitchen and
seeing one of the twin towers, smoke bellowing
out of the upper floors. They said there was an
airplane crash. I said to myself, it was such a
beautiful day, I said, how the hell could someone
not see that and avoid the twin towers.
A few minutes later I was watching the
TV, and I saw the airplane coming from the right
V. BUONOCORE 3
side of the television screen, and one second
later I saw the big explosion. All the guys were
in the kitchen, and everybody was going, "Oh."
Everybody was screaming.
There were two guys outside,
Firefighter Jackson and Firefighter Zechewytz.
They were outside looking at the sky.
Firefighter Jackson said, "Wow, look at this
airplane. It's flying so low." Maybe a minute
after that they heard us screaming in the
kitchen. They ran back, and sure enough, that
was probably the plane that crashed into the twin
towers .
Once that second plane hit, pretty much
I knew we were going. I remember calling my
wife, just letting her know that I was going to
the twin towers, because I knew at that point it
was terrorism. I didn't know the outcome of the
day for anybody, so I just wanted to call my wife
anyway just to let her know.
We responded. I remember going down
Fourth Avenue, heading towards the Brooklyn
Battery Tunnel, and I remember seeing papers
flying in the air. Pretty much we went onto
V. BUONOCORE 4
Third Avenue. We were lining up on the Brooklyn
side of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, waiting for
orders from I guess the dispatcher or whatever.
We were hanging out there for about 15
minutes. I was talking to Firefighter Zechewytz.
The next thing you know, I saw what I imagine the
south tower coming down. Right then and there I
pretty much knew it was going to be devastating
to the department and to a lot of people.
At that point pretty much we started
gathering up -- we lined up then. We took the
rig from there, and we were going over the
Brooklyn Bridge. We stopped on the bridge for
about five or ten minutes, and we were watching
all the people coming off from the Manhattan
side, thousands of people, walking calmly.
Pretty much a few minutes after that we went into
Manhattan.
I was pretty happy we didn't go through
the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel because the only
thing that was running through my mind is they're
going to hit the tunnel. I didn't want to get
caught in there. I was just happy we took the
bridge, not knowing that, who knows, if another
V. BUONOCORE 5
airplane was going to be coming crashing into the
bridge or what .
We ended up going into Manhattan. It
was just ash all over the place. I don't
remember which street exactly we were on. Pretty
much we parked our rig, and we went to the
command center. We stood there for a little
while waiting for orders.
Q. Where were you when the second building
collapsed?
A. We were, I believe, on --
Q. You were in Manhattan at that time?
A. Yeah, we were in Manhattan. Again, we
were by the command center, waiting for
instructions .
Q. So you were in the staging area?
A. We were in the staging area. Then I
remember just seeing a whole bunch of dust going
up again in smoke, not realizing that that was
the second tower coming down.
That's the recollections that I have.
Q. Anything you want to add?
A. Basically it was a tragic day for our
nation and our department, and hopefully
V. BUONOCORE
something like this never goes on again.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MR. CASTORINA: The time now is 1330
hours. That concludes the interview.
File No. 9110068
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Firefighter Richard VETLAND
Interview Date: October 12, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
VETLAND
A
Q
A
Q
2001?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
MR. CASTORINA: I am here with
Firefighter Richard VETLAND. I am at Engine
278. The time now is 1310 hours. Conducting
the interview with me is?
MR. MC COURT: Tom McCourt.
MR. CASTORINA: And your name, sir?
Richard VETLAND, Engine 278.
What is your rank?
Firefighter first grade.
What was your assignment on September 11,
I was the chauffeur.
Of?
The night tour and the day tour.
Of 278?
Engine 278.
Can you recall what happened that day, in
detail?
A. Yes. I actually watched it on TV. The
Chief went first.
Q. Which Chief was that?
A. Ed Henry. Actually, Roger Jackson was
driving him, but John Picarello came in early and
VETLAND
took the run in. They went before nine. Then the
rest of the us in the Engine we just had a feeling
we were going. We watched it on TV and then watched
the second plane hit and knew we were going. We I
fueled the rig up, then we went.
We went down Fourth Avenue, to Third
Avenue, over the bridge, then they stopped us at the
tunnel and there was a staging area at the tunnel.
Then when the first building came down we had a
clear looking right at us.
Q. You were at the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel?
A. We were at the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
Q. You didn't get into Manhattan through the
tunnel?
A. They stopped us there because 228 had said
they thought a bomb went off in the tunnel actually.
Q. And they were in the tunnel?
A. They were in the tunnel. That was during
the first collapse, because we seen it. They
stopped us before that just to slow everybody down,
I think. And then once that came down, that's when
228 said they thought there was a bomb. It was just
smoke. But we were stopped before that.
Then we went to --
VETLAND
Q. What route did you take to get into
Manhattan? You went over the bridge?
A. Then we went over to the Brooklyn bridge.
We took the Brooklyn Bridge. We were the first ones
over the Brooklyn Bridge from that staging area at
the tunnel. Then we went over and parked on West
Street, on the wrong side of West Street, facing
towards everything. Facing south on the east side,
facing the wrong way.
Q. Just put an X on the map where you were
parked on that day, Engine 278.
A. We were parked right here (indicating).
Q. Had the second building collapsed yet at
this point?
A. I don't know when it collapsed. There was
a lot of dust, a lot of dust. I don't know where we
were.
Q. Do you remember, were you directed
anywhere or --
A. From there they just put us in a staging
area.
Q. Do you know who put you in the staging
area?
A. No, that I don't know. We were there
VETLAND
maybe -- we were there maybe about 15, 20 minutes
and Father John came up and I talked to Father John.
I talked to another guy. I know John Leanza from
122 truck. He was -- I know him from when we were
kids and all he told me was "I hugged the columns
like they told us in PS 30 and he was hugging the
columns there and he said they lost I think two or
three guys that he were standing with. He ran over
and hugged the column and he came out -- he came
walking out, Father John came walking out and just
everybody started to come out. It was maybe 15, 20
minutes when people started walking, walking towards
us.
So eventually -- actually we parked in and we
started to go in and then they grabbed us and pulled
us back. We left our rig a lot closer than where
they made us go. So I pulled in and I drove right
in up over here somewhere close and then they walked
us back to the staging area. We basically unloaded
food and oranges and stuff all day and then we went
to Millennium later on. That was later on in the
day.
Q. Anything else you want to add?
A. I can't think of anything.
VETLAND
Q. Okay. Fine.
MR. CASTORINA: That concludes this
interview. The time is 1315 hours.
File No. 9110080
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL WERNICK
Interview Date: October 12, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
Wernick
MR. FEILER: Today's date is October 12,
2001. The time now is 1027 hours and this is
Monte Feiler of the Fire Department of the
City of New York. I am conducting an
interview with the following individual.
Please state your name, rank and area of
command .
A. My name is Michael Wernick. I am from
Ladder 9, I am a chauffeur. I was a chauffeur that
day.
Q. Firefighter?
A. Firefighter.
MR. FEILER: Of the New York City Fire
Department. We're conducting the interview
at the Lieutenant's office located at the
quarters of Ladder 9, Engine 33, regarding
the events of September 11, 2001. Also
present is?
MS. QUEVEDO: Fabiola Quevedo of the
Fire Department of the City of New York.
Q. What I basically need from you, sir, is
just a scenario of what happened when you got the
first alarm until the events surrounding the
collapse of the second tower. Go ahead.
Wernick
A. That morning we pulled up and I was the
chauffeur and positioned the rig -- looking at this
map --on Church Street, right behind Saint Paul's
Cemetery. From there we got all the guys and then
we went into the north 1 World Trade Center.
Enroute there, lots of debris along Vesey Street and
we entered 1 World Trade Center. We gathered in the
lobby and we proceeded to go up the stairs as a
group and as we were going up the steps -- over
time, we got separated in the stairwell and some of
us stopped at different floors.
Mike Maguire and I stopped at the 12th floor
and we stopped at the 27th floor. It was really the
27th floor was the highest level we attained on that
day. We took a rest on that floor. We saw various
companies. Some of the members, after thinking
about it after a while, I did see 6 Truck on that
floor .
Q. Were you able to recognize any of the
firefighters?
A. None of the firefighters. But I do
remember Captain Burke, Billy Burke, he's still
missing. And then I do remember the 6 Truck, a
couple of the guys recognized me. I saw them last
Wernick
week. They said, oh, you were the guy lying on the
floor. And his mask was next to mine, this guy sal,
form Ladder 6.
We were there resting five, ten minutes. We
heard reports that possibly more planes were coming
in our direction and that was from the FBI. And
there was Battalion Chief on the floor.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. I'm trying to think who it was. I think
it was from Battalion 2.
Q. You don't know his name?
A. No. And at that point we heard a loud
noise and the building shook. It was like a rag
doll. At that point we said, "We got hit by another
plane." The indications were really poor at that
point .
And then the Chief basically said, start
filtering down. So we decided to go down rather
than up. We went down one stairwell, I think it was
C, and we caught up with my boss, Lieutenant Smith
at that point and then around the 11th floor, it was
clogged up at around the 11th floor in that
stairwell, and someone on the 11th floor grabbed us
and said go down another stairwell.
Wernick
Q. What was it clogged up with? Civilians?
A. Both firemen and civilians. And at that
point it was actually quite lucky that we went to
another stairwell that was empty and then we made it
down to about the 5th or 6th floor and I remember
seeing Lieutenant Desperito because he used to be in
9 truck. I ran into him on that floor. That was a
very vivid moment in the stairwell, because he was
helping somebody out .
Q. A civilian?
A. A civilian. And I think we passed 6
Truck. They were in the stairwell with civilians as
well. Mostly firemen at that point. There really
was very few civilians. I remember seeing Engine 5
somewhere along the way. We made our way down to
the lobby which was blown out at the time from the
debris of the first tower that came down, the south
tower that went down.
At that time we still didn't know that the
building collapsed. We were still unaware. We
thought we either got hit with a plane or that
thought it might have been a partial collapse from
the upper floors in our building. We got into the
lobby and the lobby was completely blown out. I
Wernick
guess from the debris, and we had to climb out
there. And as we left the building we still didn't
know the first tower collapsed. No clue that that
first tower collapsed.
We made our way to the street and about 45
seconds out of the building the north tower
collapsed. So we just made it out. We got blown up
the West Side Highway, most of us, and --
Q. Who was in that group with you when you
left the building?
A. I think I was with B.J. Casey, a fireman
from Ladder 9. I don't remember if Casey -- I think
Casey was from Ladder 9 and Mike Maguire.
Q. B.J. and Casey, those are nicknames or --
A. Firefighter Springstead and firefighter
Casey and Firefighter Maguire.
Q. Okay.
A. I think in the lobby I remember seeing
Firefighter Walz and Baptiste.
Q. All from your company or
A. Neither of them made it out.
Q. And that was 1 World Trade Center you were
in?
A. The north tower. And then we sort of made
Wernick
it up the West Side Highway. Well, we walked out to
the West Side Highway. The minute we did that the
building came down and that blew us a few feet.
From there on, you know, we had a lot of debris
in our eyes and face and we couldn't breathe.
Eventually I got up, walked around in a dust field
and eventually I was taken to Beth Israel Hospital.
Q. I just want to know, when you first got
the run, you said you were the chauffeur. Did you
receive any specific instructions on where to stage
or where to go?
A. No.
Q. The alarm just came in of what, as far as
you are aware?
A. Well, actually when it came in Engine 33
went first. They were like 9, 10 minutes ahead of
us and then what typically happens in the city is
when something comes in they wait for 9:00 o'clock.
You know, the dispatchers, because it all has to do
with money and overtime. So at 9:00 o'clock the
alarm went in for us. So then we proceeded down, I
guess it was on the fifth alarm at that point, with
no indication of where we were gonna go. I knew we
were going to the World Trade Center. You could see
8
Wernick
the hole in the building right out here on Lafayette
Street.
Q. So the first plane had struck, the second
plane hadn't struck when you were responding?
A. Right.
Q. Okay.
A. And then as we were going down there it
struck.
Q. Did you see it hit?
A. No, We saw the aftermath.
Q. When you got down there, where did you
park? Where did you stop the apparatus?
A. I was going down south on Church Street,
against traffic on Church Street and I pulled up
right behind St. Paul's Cemetery.
Q. Could you mark that.
A. (Complied with request.)
Instead of going -- normally when we --
Like when we went to the one, we went down the West
Side Highway, we pulled up over here. As we pulled
out here, there was so much debris, the Lieutenant
said, "Just park it over here." So, you know, this
cemetery, there was papers flying all over the
place, there were engines all over, plane parts,
Wernick
building parts, and then we proceeded to walk down
Vesey Street into the north tower.
Q. Okay. Did your Lieutenant receive any
instructions from a Captain or a chief on where to
go or --
A. We just walked into the lobby and at that
point they probably got instructions to go as high
as we could climb.
Q. When you entered the lobby, did you treat
anybody? Was there any civilians that you needed to
treat or any patients that you made contact with?
A. Not at that point, but at that point there
were a lot of bodies all around outside. We were
Dodging bodies to get in.
Q. Were you asked to assist a particular
unit, either verbally or by radio?
A. No.
Q. When you exited 1 World Trade Center, do
you remember where you exited from?
A. Where we came in, in the northwest corner.
Can you mark that.
(Complied with request.)
That's where you entered. And you exited?
The same way.
10
Wernick
Q. You said you made it up to the 27th floor?
A. Yes.
Q. How long do you think it took you to walk
up?
A. About a half hour. Twenty minutes, a half
hour .
Q. Were there lights, any lights on?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the status of the elevators in
that building? Were they running at that point?
A. When we first pulled -- I do remember when
we first came in one elevator was blown out. That
was on the main floor. We couldn't use the
elevators. I don't know if the other elevators were
working. I know that definitely one was blown out.
Q. How about the stand pipes? Were they
working?
A. No.
Q. You said you weren't aware of the first
building collapse.
A. That's correct. Most of the guys weren't.
Q. Did you have a handy-talkie with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know, was it on the private
11
Wernick
channel? Was it on a Manhattan frequency?
A. Just on the regular channel.
Q. How was communications?
A. It was pretty bad.
Q. At any time were you asked to change to a
different frequency?
A. No.
Q. Were you staying on the Manhattan
frequency?
A. I stayed on the Manhattan frequency.
Q. Is there anything else that you think is
important? Any other people that you may have seen
that you recognized?
A. I remember Andy Desperito, Lieutenant
Burke, I saw Mannie somewhere, Mannie Devalle in the
stairwell at one point while I was coming down. It
was the 6th or 7th floor. He's from Engine 5.
Q. That was the last you saw of him there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did it look like he was doing at that
point?
A. I think they went on the floor. They
weren't in the stairwell. I remember the door
opening on the floor and they were just like in the
12
Wernick
lobby of the floor.
Q. That was the C stairway you say?
A. At that point we changed over to B.
Q. That was the one that was less crowded?
A. Yes. But around the 4, 5 or 6 floor it
started to get crowded.
Q. Civilians and firefighters?
A. Mostly firefighters. But we were still
able to move. But I know that there was no urgency
at that point trying to get out of the building. It
wasn't like "Let's get the fuck outta here." You
know? This thing is coming down. It was like
filter down guys and start to get out.
Q. Do you think anyone around you was aware
that the other building collapsed?
A. No.
Q. Is there anything else that you think is
important that you would like to add?
A. No. That's pretty much it.
MR. FEILER: I want to thank you for
spending time with us. It's very important
that we get this accomplished. The
department is appreciative.
That concludes the interview at 1040
13
Wernick
hours and this concludes the interview.
File No. 911084
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER PETE GUIDETTI
Interview Date: October 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
P. GUIDETTI 2
MR. MCALLISTER: I'm Kevin McAllister
from the office of administration. It's
October 12th, 2001. We're on the eighth
floor at Fire Department headquarters. It
is 9:41 hours, and I'm here with Firefighter
Pete Guidetti, who is going to recount his
experiences from September 11th.
A. We'll start out I was in Ray Goldbach's
office, the executive officer to the fire
commission, discussing the things that had to be
done that day around the office. Ray got a
Nextel message that a plane went into the World
Trade Center, and we both more or less thought it
might have been a Piper Cub, a Cessna or
something like that. We had no idea it was a
commercial plane.
With that I look out the window, and I
see the World Trade Center, I see the hole, I see
the black smoke, and I just yelled for my boss,
Commissioner Feehan. He came over. He saw it.
He said, "Oh, my God. Let's go."
With that Ray says, "Do you want to
come with me?" to Commissioner Feehan.
Commissioner Feehan said, "No, I'm going to go
P. GUIDETTI 3
with Pete, my driver. He has all my gear and
stuff in the car." Then Ray says, "All right,
then I'll come with you." With that Tom
Fitzpatrick and Tom McDonald were nearby. They
asked Commissioner Feehan if they could come
along also. He said absolutely.
I went down into the garage first to
get into the car and get it ready for them, and a
couple minutes later they came down and they got
in the car with me.
Q. All four of them?
A. Four of them, Feehan in the front,
McDonald, Ray Goldbach and Fitzpatrick in the
back .
We exit the garage. We go over the
Brooklyn Bridge. One lane was open and cleared
for us. The other two lanes to the right of me
were just bumper to bumper cars. I had this one
clear shot over the Brooklyn Bridge with no
interference of traffic.
Q. Could you see the Trade Center as you
were driving over the bridge?
A. I didn't look to see it because,
driving kind of fast, my eyes were glued to the
P. GUIDETTI 4
road. If they got glimpses of it -- we saw
enough of it initially in Ray's office to know
what we were heading into.
My plan of action was to take Chambers
Street over to West Street and down West Street
to the World Trade Center. Exiting off the
Brooklyn Bridge, heading towards Chambers Street,
Ray Goldbach said, "Pete, don't take Chambers
Street. Make a U turn right here." With that I
made the U turn, and now I'm heading past City
Hall. With that a police ESU vehicle pulls from
Park Row South in front of me. Commissioner
Feehan says to follow him. So I got right on his
tail and went right down to Broadway.
We got as far as Broadway and Dey
Street, at which point I pulled the car half on
the sidewalk, half in the street, because of all
the people, the emergency apparatus coming in,
rigs as well as ambulances and cop cars . So
there wasn't an easy way to position the car
other than to position it that way.
I popped the trunk. The four of them
get out. Commissioner Feehan grabs his helmet
and puts his fire coat on. There was a fire coat
P. GUIDETTI 5
in there that I believe Tom McDonald put on, or
Fitzpatrick, I'm not sure.
I slammed the trunk down. I turn
around and tell the people, "Get out of here.
The building's coming down." Why I said that, I
don't know. I just really felt strongly about
it. Talking to the upper echelon in this job,
nobody thought the building was coming down.
Q. So you said you told the people.
A. People. There were people all over the
place. People were in a position they just
wanted to watch. I said to them, "This building
is coming down. Get out of here." A few woman
scattered, "Let's get out of here, let's get out
of here." People just stayed there. Boom, the
second plane hits.
Q. So you're right on Broadway when the
second plane hit.
A. Right on Broadway when the second plane
hit. Shit and debris flying all over the place,
people screaming, running for their lives, myself
included. Where I ran, I ran five feet under an
awning in front of a store.
When all hell calmed down from that, I
P. GUIDETTI 6
got into the car to reposition the car and get it
out of the way. More ambulances were coming in.
I went down Broadway to Liberty and made a left
on Liberty. I parked the car about 20 or 30 feet
off the corner.
Q. You're by yourself?
A. I'm by myself. These four guys --
Feehan, Fitzpatrick, McDonald and Ray Goldbach --
once I slammed that trunk and I turned to tell
the people this building is coming down, they
were already in motion. They were running down
Dey Street.
Q. So you were by yourself when the second
plane hit?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. My understanding with them was Feehan
went one way, the other three went another way.
When you have a mass exodus of people coming at
you, it is very easy to see how four people could
not stay together and would be separated.
So anyway, after repositioning the car
and locking it up, I start heading down Liberty
towards 10 and 10, not knowing where the command
P. GUIDETTI 7
post was. I figured let me go and hook up with
Feehan -- he's my boss -- in case he needs
anything .
I have no gear. I'm LSS. I was never
issued bunker gear, helmets or any of that stuff
because there's no need for me to have that.
Commissioner Feehan, First Deputy, went
to major incidences. Most of the time I never
had to take him to third or fourth alarms and
things like that. He would let his chief of
department run it, his chief of operations. In
this particular case he wanted to go to this one,
so we took him.
I was just going to go and hook up, try
to find him, stay by his side: "Boss, do you
want me to go get your phone? A glass of water?"
In my capacity as an aide to him.
Q. At the command post?
A. At the command post. Wherever he is.
Sometimes he's remote from the command post. If
he happens to say, "Yeah, let's take a ride to
this third, Pete," we would take a ride.
Sometimes he stays in the background and sees how
it ' s going .
P. GUIDETTI £
My theory was let me go find my boss
and see if he needs anything. I was glad to get
the car out of the way. I didn't want it to be
buried. I didn't want it to be inaccessible or
in a position where we couldn't get it out of
there should Commissioner Feehan five hours from
now from that point want to go back to
headquarters, get a change of clothes, whatever.
That's what made me get that car out of there
also .
So I get that car out of there. I'm
heading down Liberty towards Church.
Q. On foot?
A. On foot.
I stop before Church, look up -- this
is the second tower that got hit -- and I said,
"Pete, don't go any further. This fucking
building is coming down." I'm sorry I cursed.
Q. That's okay. This is your
recollection, your words and your observation.
A. With that, within two seconds I hear a
rumble. I'm still looking up. I didn't do
anything. I'm still more or less -- not frozen
but I'm standing there in awe how this building
P. GUIDETTI £
is still staying up.
Q. You're on Liberty. Are you west of
Church or east?
A. I'm before Church. I never made it to
Church .
Q. You never got --
A. Never made it to Church.
Q. In between Broadway and Church?
A. Between Broadway and Church, looking
up.
I stopped. Not that I froze, but I
stopped. I said, "This fucking thing is coming
down." With that I heard the rumble within a
couple of seconds, and then I saw the brown,
thick, malted milk dust cloud and smoke and
whatever else coming down. It was rolling down
with a roar like you couldn't believe.
I turned around and I start fucking
running. Everybody's running for their fucking
lives. Somebody runs by me, knocks into me, I
fall down. The last thing I needed running away
from a falling fucking building is to fall down.
But I manage to get up, start running
again. By then the building had pancaked down.
P. GUIDETTI 10
The force of it just hit me in the back and blew
me like ten feet into a police van.
Q. Was it just the air, the force of the
air? The debris?
A. Air, dust, dirt, debris. Not heavy
debris. It felt like I was shot in the back with
a shotgun, pellets. All these pellets were
hitting me, the force. The dust engulfed me,
pushed me, literally -- I guess I was off my feet
for ten feet. Then I banged into the police van,
dropped down to the floor, scrambled to get
around the building that was on the corner for
protection .
Q. Now you're on Broadway and Liberty, do
you think?
A. Yes.
Now I can't see anything. I'm huddling
on my knees. I'm trying to feel if I'm bleeding,
because I am on blood thinners.
Q. Did you hear anything at that point?
A. A lot of screaming, a lot of screaming.
I was a little disoriented. I couldn't see
anything. I was in the thick of it as far as the
dust cloud was concerned. Day turned into night,
P. GUIDETTI 11
literally.
I started wandering, not knowing where
I was heading, because I couldn't see street
signs, I couldn't zero in on what fucking street
I was on. But anyway I was heading east towards
the seaport.
Q. Okay.
A. Midway in that trip from the west side
to the east side, I hear more planes coming. I
did not know it was our jet fighters. That was
told to me later on by Dr. Hittman.
Q. Okay.
A. I just huddled up against the side of
the building. There's no place to hide. You
couldn't see anything. There is a building
there; that I can determine. I just stayed up
against it while I thought there was another
plane coming in. But it wasn't. It was our jet
fighters. That went overhead. I continued to
walk .
I get to the seaport. That must be
Water Street there.
Q. Yeah.
A. I see the blue sky for the first time.
P. GUIDETTI
12
So I start walking north. Somebody gave me a
bottle of water. All I can remember saying to
myself is, "I can't find Feehan. I can't find
Feehan. They're all dead. They're all dead,"
meaning the four I took.
Q. Yeah, sure.
A. I look up at the Brooklyn Bridge,
loaded with people, mass exodus coming out of
fucking Manhattan.
Q. On foot?
A. On foot.
I keep walking, keep walking. I walked
to the Manhattan Bridge, which had less people on
it. Naturally people are going to go for the
nearest thing that they can get out of the
borough .
Q. Sure.
A. So the Manhattan Bridge wasn't bad to
walk over. I got to the Manhattan Bridge, walked
Did the second building come down while
P. GUIDETTI 13
you were there?
A. The second building had come down when
I was midway -- I wouldn't even say midway. I
would say after I started -- after I regained
some composure, got off my knees from this
huddled position, I started walking. Then the
second building came down.
Q. This is before you got to the Manhattan
Bridge?
A. Oh, way before. Way before I saw the
blue sky.
Q. Okay.
A. Then as I'm walking up to the Manhattan
Bridge, there was a car bomb. A car bomb went
off in some car, because the cops were saying,
"Come on, people, shit is happening. Let's go.
Keep moving, keep moving."
You could see another plume of smoke.
Somebody yelled, "It's a car bomb, a car bomb."
I kept fucking walking towards the Manhattan
Bridge. I got over the Manhattan Bridge. Some
heavyset black lady just put her arm around me
and walked with me and just talked to me and said
everything's going to be all right and you'll be
P. GUIDETTI 14
okay.
I don't think I looked too good from --
Q. I saw you when you returned. I was at
headquarters when you returned, and you were
covered in dust and you were clearly disoriented
and we got an EMT to look after you.
A. That I remember, yeah. They were very
nice. I was sitting up front at Corey's desk. I
know I had been crying a lot. I really thought
all four of them were dead.
Basically they calmed me down. They
told me I had to go and decontaminate in the
shower, get rid of all the clothes. I got some
spare clothes from Roy Katz, and I went and took
the shower. Then they said, "You should go in
for debriefing." That was on the seventh floor,
believeB
So I go. I get off and go on the
seventh floor. I come in an office like this, a
room like this. I sit at the head. There's six
people: a marshal, a couple of EMTs, Ken Cox, a
couple other people. I sit down. This one EMT
P. GUIDETTI
15
says, "If you want to talk, you can talk. If you
don't want to, you don't have to. Whenever you
feel like it, you can talk if you like or
whatever . "
I'm just sitting there. Then there was
quiet. There was silence. They're all staring
at me, six people staring at me.
So the EMT girl says, "Okay.
That's perfectly okay if you just want to sit a
while. "
| "Okay,
you want to come back later, you're more than
welcome to. We're here to help you. We're
here." I understood all that, but maybe had they
asked me questions I would have been responsive
to each question rather than six people staring
at me, waiting for me to start talking.
Q. Right.
A. I didn't want to relive what I just
did, what I just experienced, at that time. I'm
doing it now, and I've done it quite a few times
in telling friends and loved ones what I
P. GUIDETTI 16
experienced. At that time with six people
staring at me, I said, "You know what, I want to
go upstairs." And they let me go upstairs.
I just went back to my office. I sat
down. One of the light duty guys got me a glass
of water. Basically that was it. I stood around
until around 4:00, I believe it was, 3:30. Then
when I had the moment, I just left without saying
anything to anybody, and I got in my old pickup
truck and I headed home. That's all I wanted to
do was go home.
Q. Sure.
The next day I didn't come to work. Ray called
me at home. A couple of people called me at
homeB
Q. Sure.
A. I said, "I've got to go back to work.
I can't do this. I can never not go back." So
the very next day I came in.
Basically I would say that's the whole
thing in a nutshell. Was I as close to the
P. GUIDETTI
17
building as a lot of people were? Absolutely
not. I was out of harm's way. The most that
happened to me was the force of air, dust and
pieces, tiny pieces, of concrete, plaster that
just engulfed me, knocked me to the ground. I
got a little scrape on the arm.
Q. Yeah. You were disoriented, but it was
understandable after what you'd experienced. I
saw you that afternoon.
A. Yeah. I felt I had all my faculties
but yet something was missing. I couldn't
pinpoint it. I wasn't hurting. I wasn't like,
"Oh, my shoulder is killing me. My arms are
bleeding. I'm cut." No physical pain. I just
felt I wasn't right. I knew I wasn't right. Did
I think I was in shock? No, again, because, as I
said, I made it back here on my own.
What else could I add to it? Other
than the fact that I saw one distinguished
P. GUIDETTI 18
jumper; several others, but the position I was in
when several others were jumping, I didn't really
get a good look at them, but the one I did.
I don't know what more to say other
than I don't know what companies were where. I
couldn't tell you if Engine 33, which was my
company, was on Church and Vesey Street. I
couldn't tell you that. It all happened so fast.
We got there, the second plane hit within a
couple of minutes. That just totally confused
all these people even more, as well as myself and
I'm sure firefighters and Feehan and the rest of
them.
Basically that's it. I didn't see any
firefighters get injured. I didn't see any rigs
in position that I can say, yeah, Kevin, I
remember 33 engine being on the corner of Church
and Vesey. As I started to run, there was an
empty rig. I didn't see any of that.
Q. Okay.
A. I didn't get close enough.
As far as getting Feehan closer, maybe
if I would have went Chambers Street to West,
maybe I would have gotten him closer rather than
P. GUIDETTI 19
him have to walk from Broadway and Dey to the
command center.
Q. Right.
A. I might have come in the other way and
might have gotten him there -- I don't know.
These are things I question myself, why did I go
so fast.
Q. He made it there on foot. He made it
to West Street, and he was on the west side of
West Street. So either way -- he didn't get hurt
before he got there. He was hurt after he got to
the west side of West Street.
A. All right.
Again, I said I think I drove too fast.
I got him there too fast. I didn't have some
needle, life-saving syringe here that I had to go
so fast that we had to get it there. I was
taking a 72-year-old man to probably one of the
most horrendous things that he would ever see --
had seen in his career or would ever see, had he
been still alive. I question myself about that.
Maybe if you would have just take it easier a
little bit you wouldn't have gotten him there so
fast. Ray chimed in with, "Did you ever stop to
P. GUIDETTI 20
think by getting him there that fast he saved 200
lives by giving an order here or giving an order
there?"
Q. Right.
A. That kind of made me feel a little bit
better. But I do question why wasn't I with him.
I normally am in the few times we do go to
scenes. Unless it's something like, "Pete, just
sit in the car. I'll be back. I'm just going to
go check in." Then I would just stay with the
car .
But I had this sense of -- I don't
know, is it guilt or is it --
Q. Some people describe it as a survivor's
guilt .
A. That's what I've been experiencing
lately. A couple of times it entered my mind
that I was pissed off that I wasn't one of them,
which is -- I don't like to even say that. But
kind of like -- I don't know. I think the
survivors suffer more than the instant impact of
death, you know.
I'm assuming and hoping and praying
that as Feehan was running as well as all the
P. GUIDETTI 21
other guys that there was a bang on the head,
knocked them unconscious and then whatever
happened afterwards he didn't feel. That's
quick. Okay? That's kind of a quick way of
going .
The people who survived that now, that
walk away from that, is that survivor's guilt?
Is that, "Why wasn't I there too and why wasn't
I -- should it be a lot easier if I was fucking
dead than to go through life day in and day out
like this, questioning?"
Q. Why by an act of fate did I survive and
another guy is dead.
A. Right. Oh, yeah.
Q. People are so racked by that.
A. Little things too to make a person not
be caught up in that collapse, like Chief Ganci
giving Nigro an order, "Go check the side of the
building. Tell me what we've got, Dan. Tell
Steve Mosiello, 'Steve, get me two good trucks
over here. '" So those two guys had a direct
order. They leave Ganci. They survive. Ganci
is dead.
My boss, with three of his close
P. GUIDETTI 22
people, all four going down the block at the same
time, same rate of speed, because people coming
out and you can only run so fast or walk so fast,
they went one way, Feehan went by himself another
way. Feehan eventually got to the command post.
Where these guys went I'm not too familiar with.
I think Ray tried to hook up with the
commissioner, rightfully so. Fitzpatrick and
McDonald, I don't know where they were headed.
To make a long story short with that
particular statement, why Feehan goes this way,
these three go that way, these three live, Feehan
dies. Feehan goes this way, his aide moves the
car this way, starts heading towards hooking up
with him, he lives, Feehan dies.
Q. There's no explanation for it.
Everybody experienced the same thing, and why one
person got hit with something that ended up
killing him and another person didn't, I don't
know what the explanation is.
A. When you get in that thought process of
thinking about all that, you probably just
ransack your brain for answers when you can't
come up with them. Even discussing it with other
P. GUIDETTI 23
people, nobody is going to say, "Well, this is
why" and give you a direct answer. There's
probably just a lot of things involved with it.
I don't understand why nobody -- when I
say "nobody, " the people I spoke to, the upper
echelon, your Fitzpatrick, your Ray Goldbach.
These are knowledgeable guys. They're fire
officers. They told me, "We did not think the
building was coming down."
The first words out of my mouth when I
slammed that trunk lid was to tell these people,
"Get out of here. This building's coming down."
I always felt those World Trade towers were a
firefighter's nightmare. I always told my wife I
do not want to be working when we have a fire in
there .
About 20 years ago when I was full
duty -- I was full duty for 16 years before I got
hurt and became high duty LSS. So about 20 years
ago I'm in front of the firehouse. It was a
Friday night. I'll never forget this.
Q. In Manhattan?
A. Manhattan, 33 Engine, which is buried
under the rubble. I'm standing in front of
P. GUIDETTI 24
quarters. It's the 12 to 3 watch, summer night,
beautiful night. A civilian is walking by, stop,
he's looking in, the apparatus doors are up. I
start talking to him. He turns out to be an
architectural engineer. He builds high-rise
buildings, skyscrapers.
I said, "Let me ask you a question.
Can I ask you a question?" He said, "Yeah,
sure." I said, "The World Trade Center — " He
says, "Yes." These are my words, Kevin, on my
father's grave and my mother's grave. I said,
"Let me ask you a question. If a 747 out of
Newark topped off with jet fuel crashes into the
80th story of one of the stories, will it topple
the top 30 stories?" "Oh, no, it's not designed
to do that. It's not designed to do that the way
we constructed this. We took things like that
into consideration in the building of it. That
would not happen."
It didn't topple.
Q. Right, well, that's true.
A. At that time when I ask this guy this
question, I'm picturing a plane going in, blowing
out loads of floors, fully loaded, 747 I quoted,
P. GUIDETTI 25
topped off with jet fuel, would it topple the 30
stories. He said no.
Did I think when I said that day these
buildings are coming down, I didn't think they
were going to pancake all the way down. I'm
looking up at that second building saying how are
those stories above it staying up. The hole was
huge. It looked like toothpicks, four toothpicks
in the corner were holding the rest of the
stories above it up.
In me saying that these buildings are
coming down, I thought it was going to collapse,
it was going to topple.
Q. From above?
A. From above, like 30 stories, 20.
Whatever was left above the plane crash in either
tower would just give way and go this way and
come down into the street. I did not think the
whole building would pancake down. They were
designed, from what I understand, to do that. 20
years ago the guy didn't tell me that. He didn't
turn around and say, "Oh, no, you don't have to
worry about the building toppling. However, you
have a strong possibility of it pancaking down on
P. GUIDETTI 26
itself because it's primarily steel construction.
Steel expands one inch for every thousand degrees
rise in temperature. So you're popping rivets,
you're twisting beams."
But again, he didn't say that. He just
said it's not coming down.
Q. And they spoke a lot about impact.
Apparently the building was designed to withstand
an impact from a 707, which was the plane of the
day. But it doesn't appear anybody considered
the impact of a fire with all that combustible
material added to it.
A. Right, that fireball, that massive
amount of jet fuel burning instantly. It all
goes instantly.
That's it. I was amazed at why I
thought they were coming down, and I was amazed
at that question the way I worded it 20 years
ago, was the truth. The reason why I used the
747 in asking this guy that question back then
was because 747 was the biggest plane we had.
Topped off with jet fuel, it's going to have the
maximum amount of fuel. Right out of Newark,
you're not going to burn much to hit the World
P. GUIDETTI 27
Trade Center.
Q. A flight to Europe or somewhere else.
A. I didn't think of terrorism back then
either. I'm just saying an accident, the fog,
something, a plane is going to go into the World
Trade Center. I'm going to give you a scenario,
what do you think, you're an architectural
engineer .
So I found that kind of strange as well
as that day looking up at them saying they're
coming down, saying it to people, saying it to
myself with the second one, and then actually
seeing it come down, looking up at it as it's
starting to come down.
500 feet to the base of the building,
maybe, 600 feet, I would say I was, going by the
map and the schedule in the map, one inch equals
600 feet, on one of the maps I have. I was
trying to find out where I was. I used that. I
would say about 600 feet from the base of the
building .
Q. Sure.
A. Which to me 110 stories up, it's coming
down, is a little too close for me.
P. GUIDETTI 28
Q. Right.
A. If somebody told me, "you want to stand
600 feet away from the base of the World Trade
Center when it starts to collapse?" I would say,
"Absolutely not. Get me ten fucking blocks
away. "
But anyway, again, I was out of harm's
way, because I wouldn't be here now. It's just,
all of it, the hearing of the second plane
exploding, people jumping, losing my boss, losing
friends, my company's buried, just putting
everything all together, I have no words to
describe what I feel. I'm sure a lot of people
feel most of what I feel. Some feel worse
because of being closer, seeing a lot more worse
things than I did, like body parts. I really
didn't see any body parts. Some people saw that,
who witnessed that, who were closer. That
company that was in the stairwell, what was it, 6
Truck, 9 Engine.
Q. Yeah.
A. I mean, talk about questioning fate and
everything; right?
Basically I guess that's my whole day
P. GUIDETTI 29
that day.
Q. I appreciate that.
A. I don't know if I was of help. I hope
I was of help.
Q. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody's
recollections are unique, and we appreciate the
fact that you shared yours with us .
A. Do you have any specific questions you
want to ask like -- I never made it to 10 and 10.
The command center wasn't there anyway.
Q. Sure.
A. That's number one, had I gotten there.
Had I been a little faster, I probably would have
been by 10 and 10 and God knows would I be here
now. I don't know.
All these questions you run through
your mind. I'm thankful to be alive. I do think
my career with the Fire Department is over, after
31 years and losing a boss of 11 years and my
company being buried, again, and me coming close
to either being killed or seriously injured. I
think I want to spend some time with the wife and
the family and the grandchildren.
Q. Sure.
P. GUIDETTI
30
A. You've got to remember something, I'm
light duty LSS. Okay? For a light duty LSS guy
to come close to buying it at the scene of a
fire, I mean, that's a little scary. I have no
equipment. Most aides to like the chief of
department, chief of operations, they're
full-duty guys. They get out of their car,
they're throwing helmets on, coats, boots,
they're going with their boss, they're staying by
their side.
P. GUIDETTI
31
|So I guess that helps me in the fact
that I wasn't by Feehan's side, because in a
situation like that I don't think anybody who's
(with no equipment and a
short-sleeve shirt should be at the base of a
building that parts of planes are coming down,
debris is coming down, bodies are coming down,
eventually the whole building is coming down.
So maybe I helped my own guilt of not
being next to my boss's side with that. I feel
it's a pretty legitimate excuse, if that's the
word I want to use, "excuse." I don't even know
anymore .
But basically that's it. What else? I
couldn't find Feehan's car. Dismay held the
marshals for days. Then eventually they did find
it.
Q. Yeah.
A. That's it, I guess, Kevin. I don't
know what else.
P. GUIDETTI 32
Q. Okay. That was great.
A. My whole story.
Q. That was very detailed, and that was a
good account. I appreciate that.
A. Okay. Thank you. If there's anything
else you need, you think of, one single question
or something.
Q. Let me wind it up?
MR. MCALLISTER: It's 1013 hours on
October 12th, 2001, and we're going to
conclude the interview now. Thank you.
File No. 9110110
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MAUREEN MC ARDLE-SCHULMAN
Interview Date: October 17, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
2
McArdle-Schulman
MR. CASTORINA: The time now is 1205.
We are conducting an interview. We are at
Engine 35. My name is Ron Castorina. Your
name?
MR. MC COURT: Tom McCourt.
MR. CASTORINA: And your name, ma'am?
A. Maureen McArdle-Schulman.
Q. Could you tell me what your assignment is,
and your rank?
A. Assigned to Engine 35. I'm a firefighter
first grade.
Q. On September 11, 2001, can you tell me on
that particular day what the events were, what you
can remember?
A. I came in to work for a roster staff tour.
Usually on roster staffing you're detailed out if
your company doesn't need you.
I was assigned to 91 Engine. I was in our
quarters when the first plane hit. We weren't sure
if it was a small plane, a big plane.
So I was in the firehouse when the first plane
hit. I had the detail out of the house to 91 Engine
and I had just got into my car and left. I got into
my car and went over to 91 Engine. I parked on the
McArdle-Schulman
side street on 111th Street, walked into the
quarters. I had all my gear in my arms and the
announcement came over that it was a fifth alarm and
91 Engine was responding. It's unusual. It usually
comes over the computer. It came over the
loudspeaker .
I happened to have my cell phone in my hand,
that God. I stuck it in my turnout coat pocket. I
got on the rig and responded to the World Trade
Center. We ended up going through 112th Street,
down to Central Park South. We came out of the park
and we ran into all the other rigs. They were all
responding. Police cars, unmarked cars. It was
like a big caravan down there.
We parked on West Street. You know, basically
we were all in line. Whoever was in front of us
parked in front of us, we parked behind them. We
were on the wrong side of West Street facing the
towers. So the windshield was that way so we were
on the wrong side of the street. We got out of the
rig, got our stuff, carried cylinders, roll-ups,
standpipe kit, all our gear, started huffing down
West Street. I was a little slower than the rest of
them.
4
McArdle-Schulman
Q. Where were you going? Heading on what
street?
A. Heading -- West Street, towards the
towers.
Q. At this point did the first collapse
occur?
A. No, no collapses. The second plane had
hit.
Q. So you just saw the two towers burning?
A. Burning. We went to the command center,
the lieutenant reported in. There was already 75 to
100 firefighters standing in this parking garage, at
the entrance, waiting for assignments.
Companies were coming out, companies were going
in for relief. Somebody yelled something was
falling. We didn't know if it was part of an
airplane coming out, if it was desks coming out. It
turned out it was people and they started coming out
one after another.
Q. You saw the jumpers?
A. We saw the jumpers coming. We didn't know
what it was at first, but then the first body hit
and then after that we knew what it was. And they
were just like constant --
5
McArdle-Schulman
We were lucky most of them hit the set back,
they weren't landing on the ground.
Q. How far were you from where they were
jumping at this point?
A. I didn't see anyone landing on the ground
in front of us. Most of them were hitting the set
back. I'm still across the street in the parking
lot. Me and another guy from 91 just -- I was
getting sick. I felt like I was intruding on a
sacrament. They were choosing to die and I was
watching them and shouldn't have been so me and
another guy turned away and looked at the wall and
we could still hear them hit.
The Lieutenant came up to us and said, "We're
going in." So we all got our gloves and Scotts back
on and went up to the part by the command center,
and they said, "We need forcible entry tools." In
an engine we don't carry anything but our hose, we
have standpipe kits. We had things that we thought
we would need. They were sending us to Tower 2,
sub-basement 6.
So I called my husband on my cell phone. I
said, "I'm going in. This is where I'm going." I
left a message on his machine. He wasn't at his
6
McArdle-Schulman
desk at the time. I was standing there and my
Captain, who was at the medical office who just had
surgery on his shoulder happened to be there.
"What are you doing here? You're on medical?"
He said, "Nobody's on medical anymore.
Everybody's at the scene."
Okay. So my Captain and the
chauffeur from 91 volunteered to go back to 91 to
get us some tools we needed, because there was
nobody to let us into sub-basement 6 or anyplace
else.
So they went to the left. We're standing at
the command center, listening to everybody give
their positions. You know, what stairway they were
using. You know, escape stairway, rescue stairway.
Things like that or what floor they're on. We're
hearing the whole thing where everybody is.
Someone comes running over to the table and
said, "A firefighter was hit by a jumper. He needs
last rites." So a couple of guys went to the right
to give this guy last rites with Father Judge, I
guess. I don't know who else ran over. My Captain
and the chauffeur from 91 went to the left. We're
standing there and we're looking up and we're trying
7
McArdle-Schulman
not to look at people jumping. We really felt like
we were intruding on them. And the building had red
fire, a ring of fire. They started pumping and
bouncing and I'm standing there staring. Finally
somebody yelled "run." It took everybody out of
that trance we were in. We ran back into the
garage. Anybody that went to the right was killed.
People that went to the left were okay.
Q. Do you remember seeing anybody in
particular that ran that way?
A. No.
Q. You don't remember?
A. No. I was just mesmerized, absolutely
mesmerized by this building. I couldn't -- we
just -- it was like watching people jump. You just
can't believe what you're seeing and you're just
standing there like idiots staring.
And ran back into the garage -- I mean I didn't
run, because I was ahead of the pack. By the time I
turned around, it was asses and elbows and I have a
really bad sense of direction. That's why I stay in
the Engine.
So I moved all the way over to the right and
there was a curb and I ran my foot along the curb.
8
McArdle-Schulman
I still had my roll-up on my shoulder, ran my foot
along the curb cause if I get turned around, I don't
want to keep walking in the same direction. So I
just was walking along with this stuff on my
shoulder trying to stay away from the pack because I
didn't want to get killed by anybody running and the
thing -- I didn't actually watch it come down. It
just came down behind me. I was stuck inside the
garage and --
Q. That's while you were on the move?
A. Yeah. I was just kind of walking and
feeling close with my foot. I didn't want to get
lost. And all I kept thinking was this is the
garage they blew up last time. You know, you always
hear about secondary problems.
So we got in there and pretty much everybody
started "Are you okay? Are you okay?" I was
feeling around the ground to see if anybody had
fallen and then some guy said, "I know how to get
out of here." So by now I put my face piece on and
it was full of crap. So I sucked in what I now find
is asbestos. It was all in my eyes. My eyes were
on fire.
This guy says, "I know how to get out of here."
9
McArdle-Schulman
So we're all like holding on to eachother's shirt
sleeves and he leads us outside and the guy next to
us starts having an asthma attack. So he says, "I
need your mask." So I gave him my face piece and me
and someone else pulled in a police van with air
conditioning on.
And we were outside and except for a piece of a
tree that I was standing next to 15 minutes before
that, I didn't know where outside was. It was
complete black. Everybody had 2 inches of soot on
them. It was just you couldn't breathe. You know,
we really couldn't breathe.
So afterwards everybody seemed to calm down. I
went back into the garage and I started calling for
my company that I was with. The Lieutenant found me
and one of the guys from 91 found me. We were still
missing one member. The Lieutenant said, "Come on.
Let's get out of here." They actually took me into
the parking garage and through the building and came
out like half a block away. They said, "Go to the
rig and stay there."
So I went back to the rig with the other guy,
the other firefighter. I said, I got a find our
other guy. So I went back to the rig, checked the
10
McArdle-Schulman
rig. The rig was still running. Because that's
what they would do, is keep the rig running all the
time. The lights were still on. So I said to him,
kidding, I said, "Let's move the rig a little
further." So he backed up a block and we're
standing there waiting for everybody to come.
Nobody is coming back and there were people
wandering all over.
It was, you know, we all kind of started going
back towards grounds zero because we were missing
people. We felt like you weren't doing anything
standing there. And right now the sun was out and
all of a sudden you're hearing, there is a guy
dressed in army fatigues with automatic weapons
shooting people, that there is four more planes
missing .
Q. You're hearing all these rumors?
A. Yes, rumors. There was a guy with a
little TV, like a civilian, hooked it up to a
building with an outlet. He said, there is eight
planes all together and they only found four and,
you know, we're getting bomb scares on this building
and we're running for our lives.
I said, "Where are we supposed to go?" He
11
McArdle-Schulman
said, "Go by the water."
Q. And there is supposed to be a guy shooting
at you?
A. Yes. "Go by the water at least there is
no building there." I said, "But these buildings
are so big. If they come down, it doesn't matter."
So we went running, not knowing where to go. So
finally I get back to the rig and I said, "I got a
call my husband." I just called him and told him I
was going in the tower. The tower just imploded.
So finally I couldn't get a signal on my cell phone.
I found a pay phone.
A guy gave me his calling card. The pay phone,
he had used it two seconds before. It didn't work
for me. So finally I get a hold of my husband. I
said, "I'm okay." I must have been hysterical. He
said, "Calm down. Calm down." I said, "I'm okay.
I made it. I'm all right." Then I called my
father, I have two brothers on the job. So I called
my father to find out where my brothers were. Both
of them already called. I'm one of the few families
that lucked out.
Then I went back to the rig again and we were
standing there, I'm standing there with this one
12
McArdle-Schulman
firefighter. We still don't have the Lieutenant
back. We're still missing one member. We're
standing there and I look up. The second tower
starts with the ring of fire. Some puffing and
bouncing.
Q. Just like the first one?
A. So he said, "It's going, just like the
first one." So I ran to the back of the rig and got
on the back step. I still have my gear on, I'm in a
fetal position. I was afraid that if I got in the
rig that if anything came flying down the street it
would go through the windshield and kill me. So I
figure I've got the whole rig in front of me. The
hose bed is there. Hopefully if I stay down low
enough -- he went and ran under a rig, got under a
rig and the second building came down. The second
building came down.
So the second building came down, I didn't see
him for a while. Kind of like I saw him for two
seconds and he said, "I gotta find the rest of the
guys." And I said, "You know, I'm gonna move the
rig again. I'm a little too close." So we actually
moved it with him.
Q. So when the second building came down did
13
McArdle-Schulman
all the rubble and the dirt --
A. Yes. Came right down West Street.
Q. Right up to your rig?
A. Just the way -- just the way it shows in
the news. That picture of this cloud coming down
the street. That's exactly what happened. So I
moved the rig another two blocks away and I turned
it around to not face the towers and the other guy
kind of saw some people he knew. We still didn't
have a Lieutenant. We were still missing one of the
guys from 91. The chauffeur from 91 I heard they
had taken to the hospital. He had chest pains. I
saw my Captain after that. I knew he was okay. So
I was walking back and forth. "How close should I
get."
All of a sudden building number seven now has
twelve stories of fire and I ran into one of my
guys, from my company, and from there he told me
where the rest of my company was. So I found the
rest of my company. And they were in the parking
garage, which I didn't know when I saw it if it was
the parking garage I had been in earlier.
He said he needed search rope. So I found a
rig and I found a search rope and I told them to
14
McArdle-Schulman
search -- how far the rope went.
So I, you know, I really didn't know what the
situation was and 35 Engine had lines on Tower 2. On
Tower 1 they were doing some searching and then they
pulled everybody out to get away from the scene. So
we basically -- I found my Lieutenant, we finally
found the missing guy. Everybody in my group was
okay. Everybody was accounted for. I told the
other Lieutenant, "I'm staying with my own company.
You guys are too all over the place for me. I want
a company that stays together. My company stays
together . "
So basically we went back to the rig and by now
the recalls were coming down. The bus was stopping
right by the rig. Everybody company that got off
the bus was taking whatever they could off our rig.
You know, tools, whatever. So basically we're
standing there. We didn't even have a Scott mask at
this point. Everything is gone.
Q. How was your breathing? Were you okay?
A. It was horrible. I had my eyes cleaned
out about 12 times.
Q. Did you go to the hospital?
A. No. Somebody left a baseball cap in the
15
McArdle-Schulman
rig, so I grabbed that, because the sun was killing
my eyes. I mean it took about a week and a half
before the --
Q. From the dirt.
A. Plus it didn't help. I put the face piece
on and I sucked the air in and the whole thing was
full with whatever that was and all the crap went
into my eyes too. Pretty much that's it. You know,
we stayed at the rig the rest of the day, hung out,
got water when we could, found a bathroom I could
use, which was real important to me, and stayed down
and at 9:00 o'clock I finally we all started
wandering around and I went down to where the first
overpass is and I saw a Captain sitting at the
table. And what happened was I heard one of the
other female firefighters on the radio and I wanted
to find her to find out -- some girlfriend of the
Captain of Engine 6 and I knew her company was the
first or second through there. So I wanted to see
if anybody knew if she was working. So I didn't
find --
Q. So you knew your brothers were okay.
A. I knew my two brothers were okay. My
brother Kevin, he's in Squad 41. He wasn't working
16
McArdle-Schulman
so he was in on the recalls. So anybody that came
in afterwards was pretty much all right. It was
just the initial sign-ins. And I passed his rig.
Q. Where does your other brother work?
A. In Queens. I knew he wouldn't be there
unless he was on detail, from 84. Again, I saw the
guy, the Captain I knew, he used to be a firefighter
on 42 Truck, Charlie, and he said to me, "Oh, my God
you're alive. We have you as missing." So I said,
"okay."
What happened was there was a big communication
problem. They kept calling my house from the
battalion to see if anybody heard from us. Because
they didn't know who went down. Because with the
recall, anybody who was here jumped on the rig.
Q. Right.
A. So everybody went. So, you know, that's
why rescue companies lost 10, 12 guys. At a quarter
to 9 they grabbed everybody they could and got on
the rigs. Pretty much that's it.
MR. CASTORINA: Okay. The time now is
1220. This concludes the interview. Thank
you.
File No. 9110111
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER THOMAS HANSARD
Interview Date: October 18, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
T. HANSARD 2
MR. TAMBASCO: Today is October 18th.
I'm Mike Tambasco with the World Trade
Center Task Force. We're conducting an
interview with Firefighter THOMAS HANSARD of
Engine 209 at the quarters of Engine 209.
The interview is beginning at 1438 hours.
Q. Tom, I just ask you to tell us your
story.
A. I was here at work, changing tours.
They said that an airplane hit the World Trade
Center. We went up on the roof, because from the
roof you can see the World Trade.
Q. That's right.
A. We got up on the roof and saw the
explosion, not knowing that it was a second plane
hitting the World Trade Center. As the explosion
came in, the box came in and we responded to the
World Trade Center. I had the backup position on
the engine, and we went.
We went over -- there was a little bit
of traffic on Park Avenue. We got down to the
Brooklyn Bridge where we took it quickly, and
they had the Brooklyn Bridge wide open for us.
No cars, just us and police.
T. HANSARD 3
We pulled over and we came across
Chambers Street. We came straight down Trinity
and we stopped at the corner of Trinity and
Liberty, which 217 was parked right on this
corner and 230 was on this corner, and we stopped
on this corner.
We got out and picked up our equipment,
our Scotts and extra air bottles and hose, and we
started to walk down Liberty Street towards --
Q. The World Trade Center?
A. -- the tower.
Q. So you were walking west. Okay.
A. As we walked down to the tower, we went
to 10 and 10, thinking that that was the command
center .
Q. Okay. Right.
A. It wasn't the command center. They
told us to go down onto West Street, Liberty and
West, which was the command center. So now we
walked down the block, and walking on this block
there were people waving at us and jumping. We
walked through like body parts and all of this
stuff on the street, littered on the street. We
passed a guy, Suhr, from 216, his helmet and his
T. HANSARD 4
stuff was down, and guys took him away.
From there we came down to Washington.
Something was in the street there. We cut up
Washington, and we went down Cedar, and then we
came back up West Street.
Q. You came back around up West. Okay.
A. We were standing right here on this
corner, and the lieutenant from 219 was looking
for the command post. We stopped right there
while he went to check in at the command post
when we were standing there.
As we stood there, another member said,
"Let's move a little bit," because a lot of stuff
was falling on us. We moved about 20 feet. Once
we moved that 20 feet, the first tower came down.
Q. You were like right on West Street and
Liberty, right there?
A. We were like right here, West Street
and Liberty, and we ran across here to in front
of the building here, which was like One Federal
plaza.
Q. That's the one that the walkway goes
across to.
A. Yeah.
T. HANSARD 5
Q. Right.
A. The walkway, we were under it and like
over here. I don't know where it is. We just
ran across the highway or street or whatever it
is, and two guys ran into the revolving door but
it was locked. I just stood up against the side
of the building, and I found a little corner in
front of the building, and the building came
down .
It started coming down. We ran just
there. The building just came down. I stood
there. We didn't know what to do or whatever.
Then the next thing, the asbestos or whatever was
coming and you couldn't breathe, couldn't see.
It just took forever before you could
do anything. I don't know in time how long it
took or whatever. But when it finally cleared, I
got up out of my little corner, and I heard a
cop's radio, which was right near me, and I dug
about a foot or 18 inches of cement, looking for
some cop underneath this. I didn't find him; I
just found the radio.
Q. Just the radio.
A. I found two other guys, two guys that
T. HANSARD 6
were with me, Frank Dileo and Mike Minogue. They
went into that revolving door, and the cop came
in and Frank took his night stick and busted the
window in order to get into the --
Q. Revolving door?
A. Yeah. So they were good. Then Todd
made it around the corner of that building. I
didn't know he could run that fast. It was
coming out so quickly. It was just get as far as
you could.
Now the four of us met up, and Frankie
was blind from --
Q. Dust and other stuff in his eyes?
A. I was half blind, and my eyes were all
blurry. Todd, I don't know that he was okay.
We regrouped, and we were going to the
tower now to look for survivors. We didn't know
where our officer was or whatever that we were
looking for. No sooner than we started, the
tower -- we regrouped like on this corner.
Q. Down by Albany Street.
A. Yeah. We ended up going this way to
look for something. I don't know why we ended up
over --
T. HANSARD 7
Q. Towards the water, westbound.
A. I think over here there was a bar over
there and there were people running all over the
place.
We regrouped there. Then it's like,
okay, we're going back to the building to look
for survivors. As we were going back towards the
building, the second tower came down. I just
stood there in shock. We were further away from
the second tower.
I sat there, and I couldn't believe
that I was watching this antenna come down. Then
finally somebody just grabbed me, and I went back
into the building. There's a bar over there.
Q. Right.
A. After that cleared up, however long
that took, then we went back, trying to get into
tower --
Q. The south tower?
A. Right. And I ran into -- who was it?
Was it Cruthers? Mike Cruthers? I knew him from
like -- he didn't know who I was. I was just
asking him what we could do, because being backup
I had no radio, I had no communication. I didn't
T. HANSARD 8
know what was going on.
We were going back towards there, and
all of the rigs now and the EMS and everything
was on fire. People were running. It was --
Q. Pandemonium?
A. Yeah. We were trying to figure out
what to do. Now I think where the hotel was --
Q. Right, where Three World Trade Center
was.
A. That was all down. We were climbing
over the rubble. We were trying to get -- from
there we were trying to get into the lobby and
climb over all this rubble and get into this
lobby, because there were reports that there were
firemen .
Q. Trapped.
A. -- trapped by some elevator bank. When
we were going up there, there was fire burning.
I don't know if it was Liberty Street or what,
but you could see down maybe four floors to the
street. You're climbing over the rubble, and
you're trying to get in place.
We had no water pressure. We had some
hose lines run. There was no water pressure, and
T. HANSARD 9
we were just trying to put the fire out and make
a push.
From there some squad guys and some
rescue guys came in, and they were taking over
after this report. From there it was like just
trying to search for hours. Finally I walked
away like hours later. Time didn't really mean a
whole lot.
Q. Right.
A. I went and I was looking for my rig on
Trinity. I ran into another guy that was on
light duty at Metrotech. He came, and we walked,
looking -- we walked back up Cedar back to
Trinity, looking for our rig, and I didn't find
it. And I was looking for the chauffeur.
He left. He was hurting. I came back
to this section I think where Rescue 4 was.
Q. The north tower.
A. Yeah, in the middle somewhere.
Q. The middle.
A. I found our rig over there, like
right -- maybe it was back here.
Q. I've got you, right here, away from the
buildings on the other side of West.
T. HANSARD 10
A. I don't know how it got here and then
over to there. But it was there, and it was
pumping to tower ladders and to hand lines from
the marine unit, which was over here somewhere.
So since I'm the chauffeur, I just took
it over.
Q. Right.
A. You know, the guys -- you know we have
a new rig. I pumped until like 1:30 that night.
The new rig has a computer throttle, and every
time we lost water it overcompensated for itself
and it started overheating. Then everything was
clogged from --
Q. The soot and debris?
A. Yeah, the debris. It started smoking
real bad. The chief said take it out of there.
I took it out, and another rig took my spot. I
just parked it over here. There's like a walkway
back here.
I drove the rig down like here and left
it here for a while.
Q. Like by that Merrill Lynch building,
around the back, closer to the water?
A. Yeah, because there were boats and a
T. HANSARD 11
walkway. I left it there for a couple more
hours.
I grouped up with all the guys from the
company, and we all were here just for a while,
because guys came in. Everyone regroups and
(inaudible). They were going in and out and
doing whatever.
I had enough. It was like 1:30. I was
there from like 9:15 or 9:20 before the tower. I
had enough. They took the chauffeur away to the
hospital. They took Frankie to the hospital.
They took Todd to the hospital. So it was just
me and Mike left.
So me and Mike got on the rig around
1:00, 1:30, and we brought it back to the
firehouse. We had nothing. All our hose was
taken off the rig, all the equipment. You know,
guys just took whatever they could use. When we
came here, we restocked the rig.
From there, I called 230 and there were
guys that came in and were just hanging here.
They came over and --
Q. They got on your rig?
A. Yeah. They helped me, because I was
T. HANSARD 12
worried about the overheating. We washed out all
of the filters and whatever we could do when we
got it here to get it running better. They were
going to help us ride, and we got the rig back in
service.
The lieutenant from 230, he came in. I
figured I'd let him be the boss. We went back to
the dispatcher, and the dispatcher sent us back
out at about 5. Then we went back at 5:00. When
we went back again, it was just trying to search
and looking for people.
I was pumping water -- at that time I
was the chauffeur, and we parked back like
Broadway. There were rigs there. We just parked
our rig. I didn't even want to pump from ours.
I used the other rigs. Actually I was pumping
three rigs. I'm trying to think of the numbers.
There were three rigs relaying water.
Q. All the way up from Broadway?
A. Yeah. Even further than Broadway,
because one was down Broadway and Vesey?
Q. Yeah, Vesey, right around in here.
A. That relayed to here, and then that was
relaying to another one, which was like right on
T. HANSARD 13
this corner.
Q. By the cemetery?
A. They were supplying two towers and a
hand line.
I had to make sure, because this one
was running out of fuel. Then the one I was in
was running out of fuel. I was just one
chauffeur with three -- actually I had four rigs.
Q. Running, running, running.
A. Right. The guys went -- they did
whatever they could. But I was pretty much from
there on the street.
By then somebody came, sanitation or
transit, to fuel me up. So we got them all
fueled, and we just hung out there, because I'm
sitting there ready to go. I'm sitting there
saying that things must be organized. These guys
must know that I'm -- I'm thinking I'm here doing
regular fire and I'd be out of there by 9 or
10:00. I ended up being there until like 4
o 'clock.
We went back here and just back to
regular. We went back again.
Q. When did you eventually get home?
T. HANSARD 14
A. That night on the 12th I got home maybe
around 5:00. I got home at 5 because it was my
girlfriend's daughter's birthday. I picked her
up later, and we went to eat. We passed like 105
and 219. They had their street closed off. I
stopped in there, because I know all the guys
there. We went to eat, and by then it was like
the next day.
Basically that's what happened.
Q. Well, Tom, unless you've got anything
else you want to add to it, any feelings like
that -- like I said, it's going down as a
history, so it's up to you if you want to say
anything else; if not --
A. It was just very unorganized. All of
the bosses were killed, so no one knew what to
do.
Q. Right.
A. Just the way the manpower was and all
of the reports that you heard, they said we were
under attack. It was like, look, you've got to
do this, you've got to get ready for the next
one. We heard all kinds of stories.
Q. Sure.
T. HANSARD 15
A. The truck was told to go through the
Battery Tunnel, which saved their lives, and they
had to walk through the Battery Tunnel. So by
the time they walked through, everything fell.
Q. It was down already.
A. Then we're here reports that they blew
up the Brooklyn Bridge. We're like, wow, we just
came across the bridge. You know what I'm
saying? I expected worse. I just think that the
organization was -- like guys coming in off duty
or whatever, manpower, everything has to run even
in the chaos.
Q. Right, right.
A. When we got back to Bed Stuy, there was
no one here. If there was a small fire or
whatever it would spread -- the rest of the city
was left defenseless. The building was way too
big. We had the one years ago. I felt that they
should have torn it down or do whatever then and
spread out. The rest of the city, like around
here, is vacant, vacant warehouses and property.
Q. They could use a few buildings around
here.
A. Yeah. And it's close to the Wall
T. HANSARD 16
Street area. Now that Metrotech is being built
up, people are looking on this side of the river.
Q. Right.
A. That's basically all I have to say.
Q. All right, Tom. Listen, thanks a lot
for your interview?
MR. TAMBASCO: The interview concludes
at 1459 hours.
File No. 9110113
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER FRANK SWEENEY
Interview Date: October 18, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
F. SWEENEY 2
MR. CUNDARI: Today's date is October
18th, 2001. The time is 9:35. I'm George
Cundari with Richard Dun of the Fire
Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting the interview with the following
individual.
Please state your name, rank, title and
assigned command.
FIREFIGHTER SWEENEY: My name is Frank
Sweeney, firefighter second grade, assigned
to Engine 3.
Q. Frank, can you just tell us the events
of September 11th, 2001?
A. I was assigned to Engine 3
approximately two weeks before this happened, so
I was kind of unfamiliar with the way the
high-rise unit operated. But that morning I came
in. I got here about 8:00 in the morning,
reporting to work. I was upstairs.
I think I was brushing my teeth or
something with Angel and Michael. I can remember
Angel making fun of Michael, the way he was doing
his hair. Angel said, "Frank, go downstairs and
make sure they've got your name in the house
F. SWEENEY 3
watch ready to work.
So I came downstairs, and I walked into
the house watch. Battalion 7 was to go down to
the World Trade Center for a fire. Somebody pops
on the news, and we can see the World Trade
Center. There was a lot of black smoke coming
from the north tower.
Q. Who was working Battalion 7? Who was
the chief?
A. Orio Palmer.
Q. Orio Palmer.
A. So they go down. Very shortly after
another set of tones go out. I don't know who is
being dispatched. I think it might have been
Engine 3. Somebody got on the air and said, "Do
you want us to bring the high-rise unit?" The
dispatcher came back on and said, "Bring
everything you've got."
Now the truck guys are getting ready to
go. I'm like, "Holy shit, Scott, what do we do?
Where do we go?" Because I don't know who goes
in the high-rise unit. So Scott said, "Yeah,
come with me. I'll drive the high-rise and you
sit next to me." I was like, all right cool.
F. SWEENEY 4
3 Engine got right out. We were right
behind them. We were flying down Seventh Avenue.
You can already see people are out on the streets
looking. People are already watching. The
citizens are already watching what's going on.
Q. When you got there did you see a lot of
debris on the ground already?
A. When we got to the scene?
Q. Yeah.
A. When we were coming down -- well, we
crossed over West Side Highway and were coming
down still just -- you could see a lot of things
falling from the tower. But no, I can't see a
lot of debris on the street, no, because the
World Trade Center is actually up on like a
parapet wall of some sort. There's like some
kind of wall there you can't see.
We got in front of the World Trade
Center, and we could see things were falling.
Scott and I just looked at each other like this
is not a good place to park. Scott turned the
high-rise unit around and parked it under the
pedestrian walkway.
At that time I remember looking at
F. SWEENEY 5
Engine 3. Engine 3 went really far south, and
the lieutenant had them turn the rig around and
come back north. So we were actually facing the
other way and were near a couple hydrants just
north of the high-rise unit and just north of
that bridge.
Then another unit comes in around us.
It was another engine. I can't remember what
engine it was. We're standing there for a short
period of time. I remember the lieutenant turned
to Scott and I and said, "You know, this could be
a terrorist thing. Maybe it was a bomb or
something." I can't remember his exact words.
Shortly thereafter Scott said, "What's
wrong with the flight patterns around here?" I
said, "What are you talking about?" And the
south tower blew up. Scott said, "That was a
plane." I said, "Scott, it was not a plane. It
was probably another bomb." He said, "No, I saw
it . It was a plane. "
Then a chief came up to him and started
yelling at Scott saying, "Are you sure you saw a
plane?" He was like getting angry. He wanted to
make sure that it was a plane that Scott saw.
F. SWEENEY 6
Scott said, "Yes, I saw it." That's when things
really started changing. You could see the fear
in a lot of people's faces.
Q. The plane never came over your head,
then?
A. No. That was south of us. That was
south of us.
All the meantime, we were seeing people
jump. That's what really started getting to me.
At first it didn't start getting to me. I was
like, all right, people are going to be jumping
here. We had to keep our heads up to make sure
we don't get hit by any of these.
Then I think we were there an hour and
it really started getting to be too much. I saw
one woman come down and beheaded. It was just
too much.
Q. Are you still looking up at the north
tower?
A. Yeah, I'm looking at the north tower.
The south tower is going. Somewhere in this
time -- it's really hard to tell time frames, but
I saw Giuliani with Von Essen, and they were
going to what I believe was the command post.
F. SWEENEY 7
It was set up like maybe in front of
the Marriott Hotel, somewhere around there, maybe
on the West Side Highway, yeah, in front of Two
World Financial Center. They were walking over
towards there somewhere.
I can remember a lot of the officers
yelling to the guys, "Do not put down your
equipment. If you put down your equipment, stand
next to it, because you don't know who's putting
what down next to us."
We were clearing all of the civilians
out of the area. I can remember getting upset
with one civilian who was being very theatrical
about the jumpers, and I asked him to leave. He
didn't need to be there.
I can remember about seven people
walking from like at the Marriott over to where
we were. I said, "Where are you people coming
from?" They said the south tower. But it was
only like seven people. Other than that there
were no civilians walking in the front there.
There was nobody coming out from the towers. I
was very surprised about that.
Q. Did you have a lot of chaos or mayhem
F. SWEENEY 8
around you?
A. Not at this point, no. Initially when
we parked the rigs there was a lot of civilians
still in the area. At this point now it ' s a lot
of security guards from the World Financial
Center and a lot of Fire Department and police.
So we're standing by in front of the
Winter Garden. The lieutenant has us up one
level from the rest of the fireman because he
thought if something else were to happen we would
be able to run through the Winter Garden, where
all these guys would be stuck down there in the
basement .
We were actually under the pedestrian
bridge at the entrance to the Winter Garden.
Scott said, "If something happens, we'll all run
into the Winter Garden and go to the right." I
said, "Scott, look at this huge concrete pillar
here. Nothing's going to go through this thing."
Later on the north tower did.
So anyway, we were standing there. One
of the chiefs calls for three engines and three
trucks to the south tower. I can remember we
went back outside, because we walked inside for a
F. SWEENEY
short period, just walked through the doors to
see where we could run to in case we needed to.
Q. You heard that over your radio?
A. Then we walked back out. Yeah.
Q. That came over your radio?
A. Came over the radio.
Q. Were there a lot of maydays on the
radio at that time?
A. No, no. I don't remember maydays at
that time, no.
The lieutenant said, "Let's go, 3
Engine." I bent over to pick up the hose, and I
hear what sounded like firecrackers and a low
rumble. I look up, and the south tower -- I
could see the top part of the siding overlapping
the bottom side of the siding. The siding
actually was like this. Then I saw the dirt
above that.
I ran. I was right behind Scott.
Scott ran into the Winter Garden and got against
a concrete pillar, and I just hugged the pillar
with Scott. Aguilera was right behind me. I
thought we were dead. I thought the tower was
coming down on top of us. I thought we were
F. SWEENEY 10
gone.
It was a loud rumble. The Winter
Garden filled up with the dirt, the dust and that
was it. Then it was quiet. Then you heard the
maydays on the radio. I can remember hearing,
"Mayday, mayday, mayday. Mayday, mayday,
mayday." I think I can remember like Ladder 4 or
something like that, if that makes any sense.
Q. Right now you're just with Scott in the
Winter Garden? Anybody else with you?
A. Scott and Aguilera.
The rumbling stops, and we start
looking for people. I can't even see Scott, and
I'm right on his back. That's how thick it was.
We start back towards the entrance to
go back out of the building, and we hear people
in this little room. So Rob and I go towards the
little room. I don't know where Scott went at
that time. We grabbed the people out of this
little cubbyhole and bring them to the back of
the building.
Then we go back to the front of the
Winter Garden and we found another person just
wandering around. He said he's Commissioner of
F. SWEENEY 11
the Fire Department and he needed to make a phone
call. He tried making a phone call on one of
those little security phones. We're trying to
tell him he can't call out on that phone. He
says he has to call headquarters. We just
grabbed him, pulled him and dragged him out back.
Q. Do you know which commissioner this
was?
A. It was not Von Essen. It was somebody
I don't recognize. He identified himself as a
commissioner. He was trying to make a phone call
on that little white security phone. So we just
told him, "Come on, let's go. You're in shock or
something." We just dragged him out back of the
Winter Garden.
Then we came back out front looking for
the lieutenant, who then shortly appears. Now
we're worried about Kevin Cronick and our
chauffeur. We didn't know where our chauffeur
was. The interesting thing there is the
pedestrian walkway bridge is still up. It's
still intact at that time. The south tower is
gone. Rob Aguilera says to me, "The Marriott's
gone." I said, "Never mind that. The tower is
F. SWEENEY 12
gone." I didn't think that the tower would come
down, not like that. I thought maybe a quarter
of the top came off, because it didn't seem like
that long of a rumble.
Q. How dark was it for how long a period?
Was it a long period or short time?
A. I thought it was kind of short,
thinking of what came down. What was interesting
is when we went back out towards the walkway, it
was actually getting clearer. The closer we
walked to the tower, the clearer it was getting.
Inside the building it was very dense.
Q. Were there a lot of people there other
than you and your partner in the Winter Garden?
A. Just the commissioner and maybe three
other guys that we took out back.
Q. There were no civilians?
A. No, no. I don't know where they all
escaped to.
So the pedestrian walkway was still up
at that time after the south tower came down.
So we just got together with our
company, and we walked through the garden out to
the back.
F. SWEENEY 13
Q. The second building hasn't come down
yet?
A. No. The north tower is still standing.
We come out on Vesey Street and we walk
towards the Hudson River. The lieutenant -- I
said, "Where are we going? We've got to do
something here." He said, "Well, this other one
may come down." I said, "This ain't coming down.
That was just a fluke that that first one came
down." All the time I wanted to go up in there.
He said, "Yeah, the second one -- that one may
come down too." Not even five, ten minutes later
the thing came down.
Q. So you were around North End Street and
Vesey at the time the second one came down?
A. Yeah, North End and Vesey. Everybody
started running north, up to where you see North
Park on there. We started running north. That
whole area became cloudy.
Q. Were there boats parked over there,
going to New Jersey, taking people over?
A. There were boats taking people over,
but I don't know if it was before the second
tower came or after. I know afterwards when we
F. SWEENEY 14
found Engine 5 and the fireman having a heart
attack, yeah, there were boats there and we put
him on the boats and sent him over.
Then the rest of the day we just spent
running from bomb scares and gas leaks.
Stuyvesant school had a gas leak. The World
Financial had a gas leak or bomb or something.
Q. Then you were putting out fires on the
rigs, ambulances, police cars at that time?
A. No, no. By that time we were up by
Chambers Street. We're north of Chambers now.
Now the Fire Department is trying to gather the
people and make some kind of organization out of
it and getting companies together at that time.
Once they got us back together and
organized somewhat, they sent us back down to
Vesey, where we stood and waited for Seven World
Trade Center to come down.
Q. Were you able to drive your apparatus
back or you came back with Engine 3?
A. Well, no, that's the interesting thing.
After the north tower came down, that pedestrian
walkway bridge was gone, and the high-rise unit
was underneath there.
F. SWEENEY 15
Q. How did you get back to quarters?
Jumped on the back of a volley rescue.
A. Oh, right, right, that's how we got
back. That's right.
But that was a long day.
Q. After the towers collapsed, you never
really saw any injuries after that? No civilians
were coming up to you?
A. No, it was surprising; right? Not many
injuries at all. I think you either got hit with
that building and died or --
Q. It was unbelievable the lack of
injuries.
A. Yeah.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, you know, I can remember -- we were
standing on Vesey Street, and it was just --
everybody is looking around in disbelief. We
were wondering where 12 Truck is, when Angel
Rivera?
Q. Yeah.
A. Angel Rivera was walking around in a
daze and we found him. We said, "Where is the
rest of the truck?" He started to explain where
F. SWEENEY 16
the rest of the truck was and what happened.
Q. And they came up after that?
A. Heinz came up, and then we found
McGimpsey .
Q. He told us that Mazy and Matt Tansey
were shipped to New Jersey.
A. Yeah, I didn't hear that part. I
remember they were trying to rinse McGimpsey 's
eyes out. His eyes were killing him. They were
bright red, and they were hurting him really bad.
So we sat him down and tried to wash them.
Q. Anything else to add?
A. I wish I could help you with the
placement of rigs or something, but I can't.
Q. There was a lot going on that day.
A. The only other thing as far as citizens
was in the north tower I can remember seeing
citizens walking through the glass out an exit
way. It looked like they were exiting out the
north, but they could have been circling around
to the back.
There's nothing really else I think I
could help you with.
Q. I would like to thank you, Frank, for
F. SWEENEY 17
taking the time and doing this interview.
MR. CUNDARI: This concludes the
interview. It's 9:50.
File No. 9110114
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER SCOTT HOLOWACH
Interview Date: October 18, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
S. HOLOWACH
MR. CUNDARI: Today's date is October 18,
2001. The time is 9:15. I'm George Cundari with
Richard Dunn of the Fire Department of the City of
New York. I'm conducting an individual with the
following individual.
Q. Please state your name, rank, title and
assigned command?
A. SCOTT HOLOWACH, Firefighter third grade,
assigned to Engine 3.
Q. Can you please tell us the events of
September 11, 2001.
A. I just got on that morning. We were in the
house -- I was in the house watch with Angel Juarbe,
one of the guys who was missing from Ladder 12. We
noticed on the news that one of the planes hit the
Trade Center. Shortly after that the Chief was sent
and I guess like 30 seconds later we were sent. We
were sent by ourselves at first and we called up
dispatch and asked if they want the high rise and they
said to roll everything, so we took the high rise down
with us.
As we were going, we went down to Canal
Street and made a right and went to the West Side
Highway and came down towards the Trade Center on the
S. HOLOWACH
West Side Highway. As we were responding, all you
could see is a lot of smoke pouring out of the north
tower. I had Firefighter Sweeney with me in the high
rise rig.
When we first pulled up, we drove just south
of the pedestrian bridge, the north pedestrian bridge,
which came out of the tower to the Winter Garden. I
noticed a lot of debris coming down from the building,
so we had to jump back into the high rise rig and made
a L) turn and parked underneath the pedestrian bridge
facing north.
At that time, I started walking towards
Engine 3. Engine 3 drove south to the south pedestrian
bridge to make a L) turn to come back and as I'm walking
towards the Engine to find out what Lieutenant Walsh
wanted us to do, I heard the sound of a jet plane. I
looked up and saw it pretty close and I was like holy
shit. What's going on with the with the flight
patterns. All of a sudden, the wings turned and it
dove right into the building and it was screwed up.
At that time Chief Ganci was behind me and he
thought there was another explosion in the north tower
and that's when I turned around and said Chief, listen,
there is a second plane that hit the other tower. He
S. HOLOWACH
was like no no no no, we have another explosion. I
said no, Chief, I witnessed it. I watched the plane
hit the other tower. He is like are you sure. I said
Chief, I'm 100 hundred percent positive I watched the
second plane hit the other tower.
That's when Ganci got on the radio and called
for the military. Walsh walked up to him and said
Chief, 3 engines here with the high rise. Do you want
us to go into the tower and report to the command
center. He said, no we are going to set up another
command center outside. Just stand fast. They set up
the command center in the mouth of the garage of the
World Financial building. We were standing there and
Lieutenant Walsh said listen, why don't you go stand on
top underneath the pedestrian bridge, because if
anything happens there is too many guys, here at least
you guys can run some other way. This way you are not
tripping over 100 other guys.
We were standing underneath the pedestrian
bridge. We were watching people jump out of the
building. I guess we were there for a little while,
20, 25 minutes. In the meantime we were sitting there
and something gave me a gut feeling that something was
going to happen, so I turned to the guys and I said
S. HOLOWACH
listen, if anything happens, I said let's dive into
this building because the Winter Garden, the staircase
is pretty solid and there is two hallways. We will run
to the right.
Shortly after that, sure enough, I heard -- I
don't know even -- I guess a rumbling sound. I looked
up and I see the whole 70th floor basically like buckle
out and start crumbling down the outside of the
building. At the time I grabbed two other guys and
said let's get the hell out of here. We dove into the
building and after the rumbling stopped --
Q. Would have been south tower collapsing?
A. The south tower.
Q. You could see it from your position?
A. Yes. I visually watched the 70 floor. It
looked like almost it was buckling outwards and then it
just went down the outside of the building, just like
scaled the outside of the building and it just started
pancaking and that's when I grabbed the two guys and
the third guy followed us in. We dove into the hallway
to the right of the staircase and huddled the wall. I
guess the fourth guy, Cronick, ran out the back of the
building.
But after the rumbling stopped, it was so
S. HOLOWACH
thick in there you couldn't even see each other next to
us, so my first thought was to make sure the guys were
all right. So I asked Sweeney and Aguilera, who was a
proby, a 14 weeker here, if they were okay. I screamed
for Cronick and they said they think he ran out the
back. I said all right, I said we got a lot of people
with us, we got to start searching the area.
So we started searching the area to make sure
that everybody is getting out, take them out the back.
I got split up from these guys. I ended up with
another proby from another company and we went and
started searching the lobby of the Winter Garden and
the first floor of the World Financial Center.
Q. Scott, did you have a radio at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to contact anybody on the
radio?
A. I didn't try to, actually I didn't think
about it. I don't remember if anybody was --
Q. Was it working?
A. Yes, it was working. I don't remember
hearing --
Q. What channel were you on?
A. I think I switched to 7. I'm not sure. I
S. HOLOWACH
don't remember now. I'm pretty sure I did. Like I
said, after I ran to the proby, we searched the ground
level of the World Financial Center. We ended up
outside on the southbound side of the mouth of the
garage. We searched out front and we ended up
directing a bunch of people, Chiefs and civilians,
towards the water. When we walked back to the entrance
to the Winter Gardens is when we ran into -- found you
guys again and we came outside and found Lieutenant
Walsh. He was worried about our chauffeur. Now we
started looking for our chauffeur. We found our
chauffeur. We were standing on Vesey and West and I
guess the Chiefs and the other officers made the
decision to move everybody down towards the Pier,
towards the water, to reorganize and figure out what's
going on.
Q. That was by where the fire boat was?
A. Yes.
Q. Bank Street?
A. No, actually down by the river terrace. We
were actually on the water, right where Marine One
ended up being docked. I guess we were there 10
minutes, 15 minutes. It's hard to tell time.
Everything went so quick. We were there a short period
S. HOLOWACH
of time and that's when we heard the north tower coming
down and noticed the big dust cloud and we started
running north towards the water.
Before the north tower came down, we helped a
lot of firemen get on the ferries and shipped them over
to Jersey.
Q. Were they injured?
A. Yes, they were injured. We had the one
Lieutenant on it. I don't remember what company he was
from. He looked like he might be having a heart
attack, so we put him out. Guys from 21 Truck were
there with injuries, so we put them on the ferries. A
few other guys from other companies, I'm not even sure
where they were from.
Like I said, after the second collapse, and
the dust started settling, we went back and grabbed
whatever gear we could and headed north to the end of
the Pier and then went back to the West Side Highway is
where they were mustering everybody and they kept on
pushing us north because they thought there was a gas
leak and a bomb in the American Express building. They
kept on moving us north of the high school there.
Q. Stuyvesant High School?
A. Yes, Stuyvesant High School, until they
S. HOLOWACH
figured out, I guess, there was no gas leak or no
secondary bomb. Or no bomb. I guess they put the PD
in there to search it. They moved us back south. We
ended up back up on Vesey Street and West Street and
just hanging out until tower 7 came down.
After tower 7 came down, we went right to
work over at tower 7 to put the fires out. That's
where we stayed until we were relieved.
Q. Did you see a lot of civilians coming out
towards you away by the water on West Street?
A. There wasn't much civilians at the water, no,
no.
Q. There wasn't too many --
A. More Fire Department personnel, PD and EMS on
the water. There was a few civilians, but not an
overwhelming amount. As I said, more of the emergency
personnel went towards the water. I think most of the
civilians went north.
Q. After the collapse, did you -- was there many
injuries after that or you saw a lot of injuries after
the collapse?
A. I saw a few. I expected a lot more. If we
saw 20 or 30 injuries, that was a lot. Most of the
injuries were from taking in all that dust it seemed
10
S. HOLOWACH
like. More people just coughing and difficulty
breathing afterwards.
MR. CUNDARI: Scott, I would like to thank
you for taking part in this interview. Time is
9:25. This concludes this interview.
File No. 9110140
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER THOMAS GABY
Interview Date: October 23, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
T. GABY
MR. TAMBASCO: Today is October 23rd. The
time is 10:16. I'm Mike Tambasco assigned to the World
Trade Center Task Force. We're doing an interview into
the events of September 11th at the World Trade Center
and our interview today is with. . .
FIREFIGHTER GABY: Tom Gaby, aide to Chief
Cassano, Firefighter First Grade.
Q. Would you be good enough, Tom?
A. Okay. Prior to the date of 9/11, on 9/10, I
worked as an aide to Chief Burns on an overtime tour.
The morning of 9/11, I was having coffee right outside
Chief Ganci's office, speaking to the secretary, Lisa
DeFazio. Chief Ganci came out of his office and yelled
out that a plane had struck the World Trade towers and
that Chief Nigro should look out his window. With that
Chief Burns, standing by the commissary kitchen, said
come on, Tom, let's go, and we were off.
We went down the elevator with most of the
staff Chiefs, Chief Barbara, myself, Chief Ganci, Chief
Ingram, Chief Burns, and we went down to the CI level.
We got in our cars and proceeded to the Brooklyn Bridge
heading towards the World Trade Center. I believe and
I'm pretty sure I was the first staff car in line.
Chief Ganci was driving with Chief Nigro. Steve
T. GABY
Mosiello was driving both of them.
As we were going over the bridge, Chief Burns
said to me, it doesn't look like the sprinkler system
is working too well and kind of jokingly said that to
me. I said, yes, I guess maybe it's too much fire, and
we kind of laughed about it and proceeded to go over
the bridge. As we approached the World Trade Center,
we got there pretty fast. I don't think there were
that many companies there at that time.
I pulled up as far as I could under the north
bridge in front of 1 World Trade Center. I believe
that was the north tower. With that I opened the trunk
for Chief Burns. He proceeded to get his gear out and
I -- well, basically he said to me, his last words to
me were, Tommy, I don't want to get stuck here. Park
the car far away. With that I took the car and made a
U-turn and headed north on West Street. I parked the
car on Chambers, on the corner of Chambers and West.
Looking back towards the scene as I was
leaving, I wanted to see if I could find Chief
Cassano's car because my turnout gear was in his car
because I normally drive Chief Cassano. I proceeded
heading towards Chief Cassano's car, walking back
towards Chief Cassano's car, and Chief Ingram grabbed
T. GABY
me and told me he wanted me to alert Field Com with
setup in front of I think the Financial Building, on
the West Street side, World Financial Center.
Q. The Merrill Lynch Building?
A. Right. The Merrill Lynch Building. That's
where our command center was for the outside.
Basically, that's what I did for a few minutes, even
before I went and got my gear. I proceeded to look for
the car again and then, spotting it, I came upon Chief
Callan ' s aide.
Q. Who was that?
A. James Migalia. He came up to me and said he
had no gear in his car; could he use my gear. I told
him, here, take my gear, the key for the car was in the
gas cap, there was a spare key, and I would get
something else. With that Chief Ganci was yelling at
me to get the rigs out of West Street, on the West
Street promenade. In other words, he wanted all the
rigs cleared out of the area. I ran back and forth a
few times doing that and then left to get my gear.
Actually, what I did was I went up back to
Chief Burns' car and took Kevin Glock's gear, which is
Chief Burns' normal driver. His helmet doesn't fit me,
but I had it. So I got his turnout coat and just his
T. GABY
helmet. I took the -- which I had the radio on, I also
took the cell phone with me, headed back towards the
command center outside, and believe it or not,
somewhere in between there the plane had hit, the
second plane.
Q. The second plane?
A. I saw it coming in, I heard it, and bang, it
hit. I proceeded to try to call my wife to tell her to
stay home on the cell phone. It didn't work. I went
into I believe the American Express Building and called
her from there. I left a message at work for her to go
home if she could, and then I went back towards the
command board. I didn't know exactly where Chief Burns
was, but watching all the outside activities going on,
I was trying to get a feel for where he would be. I
looked at the board and it was kind of like in disarray
at this time. So, basically, I was just trying to help
out and see if I could listen.
At some point I was able to ascertain that I
think Chief Burns said that he was in 2 World Trade
Center, the south tower, and I said, well, let me see
if I can make my way down there. So I walked along the
buildings on West Street, on the west side of West
Street, because people were jumping and the stuff was
T. GABY
falling out of all the buildings.
At that point I saw the bridge. I went under
the pedestrian bridge to cover myself and I made kind
of a dash for the Vista International Hotel. I
couldn't tell what time it was. Like I said, this
thing here, it seemed like it was just minutes, but I
guess it was longer than that.
When I got into the Vista, I was looking to
see if I could find somebody who knew exactly where
Chief Burns was. So I went up to the Chief that was in
the lobby of the Vista, which is, I guess, the
Marriott, and I asked Chief Galvin if he had seen Chief
Burns, and he said he did not see him, but he said that
he might be in the south tower. So I said okay.
Having gone in through the side of the Vista,
I noticed that there was a restaurant there and I felt
this would be a good time for me to take a leak, and I
just happened to go into that restaurant because I knew
it was going to be a long time before I got a shot at
it, and I was up since 7:00 o'clock. So I figured let
me go now, I'll have a shot, and then I can go see
Chief Burns, figuring that once I got inside, I was
safe, to be honest with you. That was my primary thing
was to get inside. Having spotted the restaurant, like
T. GABY
I said, I knew if I ' d walk into the restaurant there
would be a rest room there.
I walked into the rest room, went to the
bathroom and was just about ready to come out and I
heard a rumbling sound. Now, having heard on the radio
previously that there was a possibility that the
elevators were letting go, I was hoping that that was
what it was. As it proceeded, which seemed like a long
time, but I'm sure it wasn't -- when I look at it on
television, it doesn't seem to be -- I could tell that
it was much worse. In my mind, I thought it was the
north tower, part of it was coming down, and I felt
like let me sit down, get low. I might be okay here.
As it turned out, after the roar, I had absolutely no
damage in that bathroom. There was no damage, there
was no smoke, it just was black as night.
I initially tried to get out and the door was
jammed. I couldn't tell how it was jammed or why it
was jammed. I had no flashlight. I didn't have my
turnout coat, so there was no flashlight in there. I
proceeded to give Maydays on every channel. I had the
mobile radio, so I had every channel. I heard
absolutely nothing. It was completely dead. I started
to think that maybe I'd be okay there for a while
T. GABY
because I could breathe, there was no fire, and I
didn't seem to be hurt in any way. So I felt, well, at
least I'm okay at this point. But the silence, the
eeriness of having no mobile communication with
anything made me feel a little uneasy. So I felt,
well, maybe what I should do is try to get out of
here. I eventually forced the door open. Just by
banging it and pulling hard, it opened in, and not
being able to see, I kind of just walked into what was
like a wall.
Q. That wasn't there when you came in?
A. That wasn't there when I came in. So then I
started to get a little nervous and I said let me sit
down and calm down. I gave Maydays again on all the
radio channels and I heard nothing. At this point I
tried to use the cell phone that I had and there was no
cell phone. That was probably the only light I could
see. I really couldn't see much. I was a little bit
nervous but basically still not aware of really the
gravity of the situation. So what I thought was, well,
you know what? Let me sit down and calm myself down,
and then I thought, well, you know, I ' d be better off
if I could get out of here.
So I opened the door again and felt for a way
T. GABY
I could get out and somehow, through whatever divine
force there was, there was a void low in the left-hand
corner. I wasn't able to get out with my helmet on or
my turnout coat, but I could fit through that crack.
So what I did was I took the helmet and I pushed it
ahead of me. There was all sorts of debris and stuff
there, but it seemed to be moving. So I said, well,
I'll go as far as I can. Maybe I can just see a light
or whatever or yell to someone, and luckily I just was
able to push it far enough that I could see that there
was an opening all the way down.
I got maybe six feet and I could see to my
left the entrance to the restaurant was still in good
shape. Although covered with everything, I still could
see. So I said I know I'm getting out of here now
because I could see daylight, and I said, okay, and I
just kept pushing ahead. It didn't take that long,
maybe five or six minutes, and I was able to get to the
point where I could stand up in that area of the
restaurant .
I put my turnout gear back on and I proceeded
to run outside, and I couldn't make heads or tails of
what was going on because it was still smoky, kind of
like a dense little fog kind of thing. There was a guy
10
T. GABY
from rescue out in the street yelling to people to keep
running, and it was all rubble all over the ground, a
couple bodies and stuff like that. So I immediately
just tried to run. I tripped a little bit, he held me,
and then I ran across the street. Believe it or not, I
ran across the street and I was looking for everybody
and it didn't seem like I could find anybody. It was
kind of eerie. It was almost like I was the only
person around.
My immediate thought was let me call my wife,
and I tried to call her to see if she went home, but I
couldn't get her, but I left another message telling
her -- and I listened to it later on at some point. I
forgot I called her back up. But she saved the
messages. I said I was a little dusty but I was okay.
So with that I heard on the radio for the
first time a voice and it was Chief Ganci talking to
Steve asking for truck companies. So I felt, oh, okay,
I'm back in the game here. There's somebody around.
But I still couldn't find anybody. I looked for Chief
Ganci and I don't know -- some people say that I was on
the south. I thought I headed north, but maybe I got
turned around. Anyhow, I wound up talking to Chief
Galvin again in the middle of the street, on West
11
T. GABY
Street, someplace on West Street, and with that I said
to Chief Galvin, I don't know if anybody else is
around, but I'll stay with you because, you know, this
way I'll know I'm helping somebody.
So he yelled to me to get the guys from
across the street. There were car fires all over the
place. He said get those guys and bring them over
here. So I started getting guys who were trying to put
out car fires to come across the street. Apparently
Chief Galvin must have known about the other building.
I had no idea that the first building was down to be
honest with you. Because I couldn't tell. You still
couldn't see it.
So basically I just told the guys come across
the street, and guys were like stretching lines, I was
trying to help a couple of guys that were hooking up
the hydrants, I was yelling to them, come on, the Chief
wants us over here, and what seemed like maybe ten
minutes or whatever of trying to get the guys across
the street, which we got most of them across the
street, I heard a tremendous roar like I've never heard
before and it sounded like a jet engine was like right
over my head, like I was on a runway with a jet engine
just taking off over my head.
12
T. GABY
At that point I kind of looked up in the air
because that's where -- and I was looking for a plane.
I couldn't see anything, but I saw people running. So
I said, well, this may be a good time to start
running. I wasn't sure which way to run, but I watched
them run and I kind of went to my right and I started
running, and then there was a complete --a blanket
over me and I banged and fell down three or four times,
and each time I got up, I got up with more stuff in my
mouth and it was becoming more increasingly difficult
to breathe. I was trying to breathe through like the
jacket part of my coat and just try to filter some of
the crap that was coming in my mouth. I heard somebody
yell breathe through your nose and I was trying that,
but I wasn't getting enough air it didn't seem like.
Now I wasn't running anymore. I fell down three or
four times. I said, well, I can't even see. This is
ridiculous to run. But I felt, well, you know what?
Maybe I'll just kind of walk and try to head in the
direction of the sounds of people that I heard.
There was an ESU cop and he had some kind of
water bottle on his back with a bite ball, and he came
up to me and said bite into this, flush around your
mouth and spit it out, and that's what I did, and I was
13
T. GABY
able to at that point clear out some of the crap in my
mouth and I felt a little bit better. He had a towel
or something and he said we'll share the towel and
we'll start breathing, and at that point that's what I
did. I started breathing through the towel with this
guy. There was like three of us on this towel.
We got up to -- I don't know what street
even. Somebody told me it was down on the west side by
Albany Street and there was a hydrant open with very
little water pressure and we kind of cleaned off
there. Chief Lakiotes was there, a couple other
firefighters and a couple other ESU cops and stuff.
But we just kind of cleaned up, and at that point I
started heading back to where I thought maybe people
would be.
Guys were coming in from -- I guess from all
over at this point now. I saw regiments of guys coming
down the highway, and even training, they were coming
from training, because I noticed a couple Chiefs,
Santangelo and Chief Idiart from training that I've
known and I saw them and they all started heading down
towards the buildings, and at that point I somehow ran
into Steve Mosiello again and he was looking for Chief
Ganci. So I said, well, I'll help you look for Chief
14
T. GABY
Ganci because I knew that, you know, that was his boss
and, if I could find him, maybe we could find out
what's going on, still not really knowing.
I felt kind of like, I don't know, but I
wasn't being really aware of what was going on, but I
was very lucky. It's bizarre, but through no really
desire of my own, I was able to survive this thing, and
it really -- it was just a matter of where you were.
Q. Basic dumb luck.
A. Dumb luck. Really basic dumb luck. Because
the odds would be, even after the first building came
down, I wasn't aware of it, and when the second one
come down, I wasn't even thinking about that one coming
down. So, I mean, it sounds crazy, but at this point I
was just trying to hook up with somebody during this
whole thing to help, you know, to get back into some
kind of order of where we could find guys and do
things, and it just never seemed to come about.
I went with Steve. We looked for Chief
Ganci. He was very upset. Then we heard the command
center was all the way up on Vesey Street. Then we
went up that way and then it was like further north
towards the park and we started heading up there, and
we got a ride with the Commissioner's driver and we
15
T. GABY
wound up with the Mayor up in 23rd Street by -- I guess
that was where they made the command center for OEM.
Q. Right.
A. Steve wanted to tell the Mayor that Chief
Ganci was missing and that we lost a lot of guys, and
that was basically what we did. Then we went back, we
hitched a ride back to Police Plaza to tell the Police
Commissioner exactly what was going on, and we wound up
getting some clean clothes there. They gave us police
uniforms. So we wound up there and then they took us
back towards the scene and we looked for Chief Ganci.
As we were going back down the West Side
Highway, Chief Cruthers, we wound up seeing Chief
Cruthers and Chief Butler, he was at the command board
at Vesey and West, at Chambers and West rather, and
then they said they found Ganci and Steve started
running towards where -- Steve knew basically where
Ganci was, and what I failed to say is, when we found
Steve, when I found Steve, we actually went back to
look for Ganci before we went up to the command center.
Q. Okay. From where he had last figured he
probably was?
A. Yes. Because Steve had an idea because when
he had talked to Steve on the radio, he had said that
16
T. GABY
he was going to be -- I didn't know what he had told
Steve, but I heard him ask for truck companies, and he
must have told Steve that he was going to be south of
where the command center was, and when I came out of
the building, that was my first thing was to look for
the command center, I remember that, and basically,
when I saw where I thought the command center was
outside, where the command board was, there was an
airplane tire. My immediate thing was that another
plane had hit. So that's what I said.
Then I went into what was, I guess, the World
Trade Center -- the World Financial Center and Merrill
Lynch and I made a phone call to my wife again. That's
where I had left the message. So that's basically
where I was at that point, and then I did hook up with
Steve and we did go back to look at right around in
that building there. He knew where Ganci was, but he
was covered with rubble, I believe.
Army was there at that point, too. I don't
know how much after, but there was Army there. That
was after the second building I remember. The Army was
there because Steve told a general that this is what
happened, this is where our Chief of Department was,
and they had a couple of bulldozers going there
17
T. GABY
already.
Q. Already?
A. Yes. There were a couple of bulldozers going
there. So, basically, I guess, wherever they got them
from, they started picking up some of the rubble.
Basically, that was all I can remember. It's kind of
strange, but I saw the second plane coming in. I
remember that vividly. I remember hearing it and
thinking why is that plane coming so close to that
building after it got hit, but thinking maybe it was an
Army plane or just a plane coming in to observe what
was going on, and then when it hit the building, to be
honest with you, from where I was standing on the west
side of West Street, it looked like it kind of glanced
off the back of the building. You couldn't tell the
damage it had done.
So, I mean, that was my recollection of that
and, you're right, I mean, some of the things seemed
like they took a couple of minutes, but other things
seemed like they took a long time. Basically, that was
it. I mean, I guess being very lucky was in it for me
that day. One more minute and I'm probably in 2 World
Trade Center. The weird thing was, like I said, it
wasn't like I had a pressing need to go to the
18
T. GABY
bathroom, but I just thought that eventually I was
going to have to go.
Q. So it would be smart to do it now.
A. To do it now. Chief Cassano had told me he
had done the same thing. He had gone to the bathroom
just previous to that. So it was weird because we both
picked the same bathroom to go to and just a series of
events that happened that I just happened to be in
there and that was -- believe me. I go back there, a
couple times that I've been back there, I look at it,
and it's amazing to me how nothing happened in that
bathroom. That bathroom was perfectly intact. So when
people say things were meant to happen, I just think --
Q. It's your day or it's not your day?
A. Yes. It's absolutely true, I mean, and never
more vividly than that day. I wish I could say I
was -- I guess the only good thing I did out of this
whole thing was being able to extricate myself because
I felt that, you know what? I could be here for a
couple of days and that was an uneasy feeling. So I
figured let me try to get out of here. But like I
said, I was completely okay. There was no heat, no
fire, no smoke, my body was okay. It was just that I
felt uncomfortable being in this kind of like this
19
T. GABY
six-by-six-foot room.
That's it. I don't know what else I could
say. If I could answer any questions, I'll definitely
do it.
Q. No, there's nothing else that I need to ask
you. That's it. If there's anything else you just
want to put after this, feel free.
A. Actually, basically, I think that most of the
things that I said were just off the top of my head
because that's all I can remember, but if I could
remember any more, I would definitely give it to you.
Except I'm very lucky. Thank you very much.
MR. TAMBASCO: That being the case, this
interview will conclude at 10:40 a.m.
File No. 9110182
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM QUICK
Interview Date: November 1, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
W. QUICK
MR. McCOURT: The date is November 1, 2001.
My name is Tom McCourt, Investigator, New York
City Fire Department. I'm conducting an interview
along with Murray Murad, Investigator, New York
City Fire Department. We are interviewing
Firefighter William Quick.
Q. Mr. Quick, just identify yourself please.
A. Firefighter Quick, Ladder 134, badge number
12123.
Q. Can you describe the events that happened on
September 11, 2001.
A. September 11, 2001 started with for me
putting my children on a school bus at 8:30 in the
morning. After that, I walked into my house. I was
getting a box of tank top Fire Department shirts to
bring to the fire house from my volleyball tournament.
I was driving in my car towards Queens. I heard that a
plane hit the World Trade Center. With that, me being
a firefighter through and through, I just started
heading towards the World Trade Center. I'm one of
these guys that always carries his gear in his car and
a fire extinguisher, just in case of an emergency.
As I got on the Van Wyck and as I got up to
about the Grand Central Parkway, I met the NYPD and I
W. QUICK
followed NYPD all the way into Manhattan on their tail,
as fast as I could. I drove with NYPD and met up with
another madman ESL) truck and he got me down to Church
and Vesey Street, where I parked right on Church and
Vesey. Right behind I think was Engine 21. I'm not
even sure. I'm not too sure. They were parked right
on the corner there.
Q. What was the scene when you got there?
A. When I got there the buildings were still on
fire. As soon as I parked my car and got out it was
mass hysteria. There were people running every
direction imaginable, screaming and yelling. People
were running past me with blackened smoke faces and
people just running with terror in their eyes. No
coordination or anything going on down there, anything
like that. I started donning my fire fighting gear
that I had in the car.
With that Lieutenant Eddie Datri, from squad
one, came running up the street and he was getting
dressed while I'm getting dressed. He looked at me --
Q. He was off duty?
A. I think he was off duty too. I think he must
have just came from the fire house because he was still
in uniform. He looked at me and he said Billy, can I
W. QUICK
put my sneakers in your car. I said yes. He said all
right. I will meet you up on the fire floor. I said I
will be there. That's the last I saw of Eddie D'Atri.
He ran from Vesey to Church right between, I think,
building four and five, right there. That would be
this building here. This is the fire building, right,
yes, this is the fire building. I was parked here on
Church and Vesey and he ran down this way and of course
the building is right here so I'm sure he ran right
between these two buildings.
Q. Which buildings?
A. Between four.
MR. McCOURT: Between four and two.
A. And five, but he ran between four and five.
I'm sure he ran to the closest building, knowing him.
He was a great firefighter. With that he left me and I
donned all my gear. I started going across Church
Street and when I went across Church Street, I saw the
door open on building 5 and a police officer yelled to
me. He said I need help, I have people trapped down in
the subway. They won't move. Like that. So I was
like all right, I'm here to help. You know.
I think this man saved my life really.
Q. You went down there?
W. QUICK
A. I didn't go down into the subway. I went in,
and as soon as you go in this entrance, there is like
either four or five escalators, I can't recollect,
right there. What it was was all these people were
bunched on the escalator. They all had darkened faces,
smoke, bleeding, injuries, but they were in mass
hysteria. They were like --
Q. Where were they coming from, do you have any
idea?
A. What I think this policeman did is, I think,
he took them from the north tower, maybe the north
tower or the south tower or what have you because of
falling debris and I think he huddled them into this
building and walked them through the subway. Because
they all had blackened faces and that's why I feel they
were from the building. So what I did is when I got to
the top of the escalator, you know, I have been in a
rescue company. I'm pretty quick to adapt to
situations like this. I just yelled out really loud
Fire Department. All of a sudden they all stopped and
looked up at me.
Q. Took command of the situation?
A. Right, and I just said there are ambulances
outside to take care of you. Just walk out these doors
W. QUICK
and go to your left and go towards Vesey Street. When
I ran in, I saw like, you know, two or three ambulances
as I was running in. So I just -- but the cop, he
said to me I can't get these people to move. I said
all right. With that they all started moving.
I said look, you lead them out. So the cop
led them out and they kept on going. There was like
around 50, 60 people easy. I looked at every one of
their faces as they went by. They were all blackened,
bleeding, with different injuries, and so they all got
out and all of a sudden I looked down at the bottom of
the escalator and there was a guy there, an older
gentleman. I said pal, come on, let's go, you got to
get going. All of a sudden the guy looked up at me,
and he was really bleeding profusely from the head. So
I ran down the escalator stairs, I grabbed the back of
his belt and I ran him up the stairs. Now I got back
outside. He was the last one.
There were ambulances there. These people
just I think, scurried, I don't even think that they
went to the ambulance. I carried the guy to the
ambulances and said here you go, to the Fire Department
EMT. I said you will be all right. I turned around
and when I started running along --
W. QUICK
Q. Where were the ambulances parked, do you
know?
A. The ambulances were parked like on --
Q. By your car?
A. Yes, by Church and Vesey. Yes, there were
police cars and an emergency service truck right there,
a couple of police cars. The ambulances were right
there. When I started to run back, all of a sudden I
heard the rumble. Now all of a sudden I see people
running towards me. I said all right, maybe part of
the plane fell off in the building or a section. I had
no idea that the whole building was coming down. So
what happened was there was by Fifth Street, there was
like a doorway. It wasn't really a doorway. It was
just like an I beam. These I beams -- this is four and
this is five building. These I beams are right here.
This is where I stood for the first blast and the
entranceway was a little further up from the subway.
I stood here and with that, gray smoke came
and all of a sudden, black smoke came. When the black
smoke came it was such high heat that I had to get down
on one knee. The heat was so intense that I laid on my
stomach. I laid on my stomach. At this time I was
laying on my stomach, my head was hiding inside my coat
W. QUICK
and I was saying to myself, you have been on the job 20
years. You have been through every tough fire in every
situation. You have survived. You know what to do.
Just hang in there. You know, I'm breathing inside my
coat, breathing inside my shirt and my T-shirt. I'm
just, you are out in the middle of the street, just
stay alive.
With that, someone steps on me and the guy
said "Who's that." I said Fire Department. The guy
said: "I think I'm burnt." I said pal, I can't even
see you. I said just stay next to me until the smoke
rises. I will see if I can take care of you. It took
a good ten minutes. It was a beautiful clear day. I
explained this to other firemen, like I was in a
bedroom with a mattress fire. That's how intense the
smoke was. And for me to hide inside my coat and not
be able to breathe is pretty intense. The high heat.
This guy thought he was burned.
Q. Did he stay with you?
A. Yes, he did, yes yes. He was a Fire
Department EMT. Then after a good ten minutes, the
smoke lifted where you could see each other. It was
just snowing out from the dust and the soot and
everything like that. This guy had 3 inches of hot
W. QUICK
soot on top of him. So did I. I stood up and brushed
my eyes off and got all the stuff out of my mouth. He
started shaking. He was wearing a short sleeve shirt.
Q. He didn't have a - - he probably didn't have
his jacket on?
A. He didn't have a jacket on. The EMTs -- you
know, it was a crystal clear day. I brushed off his
arms and everything and he kept looking at his arms and
he said: "Oh, man, my arms are so warm." From what I
could see it doesn't look like any burns. Maybe you
have like a sunburn or something like that. I said
"Are you all right." He said "Yeah". I said are you
okay to walk and everything. He said "Yes". He just
left. I never saw him again. He went on his way.
After that I stood there. I looked around
and it was like the night of the living dead. It was
like it was snowing out still. Everyone had the
thousand mile stare on their eyes, like coming out from
where they hid, walking across Church Street and just
looking. I had full fire fighting gear and I stepped
out and I just looked around. Then I walked across
Church Street from the fire building and looked up at
the building and saw that it was still burning. So I
was like, all right, I don't think I have to go into
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W. QUICK
the building because I got a feeling there are more
people in the street hurt from the collapse.
So I started my search down Church Street,
checking all the vehicles. They were all wrecked with
debris on top of them, everything like that.
MR. McCOURT: Continuing the interview with
firefighter Quick.
A. At this time I walked across Church Street.
I saw that the building was still burning and I felt it
was my need to stay in the street and look for victims
from the first collapse. As I went down the street, I
checked out every vehicle.
Q. Describe the terrain --
A. The condition of the street, everything was
covered with 3 to 5 inches of soot. Debris in the
street, it was everywhere. Papers, things from the
office building. Further down towards Liberty, you
could see parts of the building and everything like
that, but I didn't get down there yet, by the
Millennium Hotel. I wanted to make a diligent search
of the area.
Q. Did you find a lot of people?
A. I kept zigzagging back and forth and checked
out all emergency vehicles on the street. I kept
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W. QUICK
looking on the Church Street side of the -- between
four and five building and kept walking down and looked
between four and five and I didn't see any people.
People started coming out and looking like what has
happened just now. Everything like that. They were
all emergency workers and some were workers from
buildings and everything like that. In fact, there
were two guys that came out, and there was an engine
parked probably on Dey Street or something like that,
and there was an ambulance on fire.
So these two civilians started -- you know,
to grab a hose to put it out. I walked off and
searched the ambulance that was on fire and looked
around. I looked up at the building and I was like,
you know, the first one collapsed, maybe the second one
could collapse.
I said listen guys, forget this ambulance.
It's in the middle of the street. It's not a
priority. I know you mean well. I said just look for
victims laying in the street. They put down the hose.
I said just look around for people. Everyone had this
look of disbelief on their faces.
Q. Did you see the second building?
A. I could see the second building still
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W. QUICK
burning.
Q. The other one, it was totally gone?
A. Totally gone. The smoke cleared up, just
smoke laying over the rubble, over the ruins. I kept
walking down. I kept zigzagging on the street, kept
going back and forth. That way I wouldn't miss anybody
across the street or on the other side. I was like, I
would say I met those two guys on Church Street and I
met maybe another three or four people on Church Street
as I was walking down.
Q. That was it?
A. That was it. People coming out of the
woodwork, just looking, you know. I kept walking back
and forth, like I said, making searches. I made it all
the way down to the Millennium Hotel where I just got
in front of the Millennium Hotel. When I got in front
of the Millennium Hotel, all of a sudden I had my back
to the towers. All of a sudden I heard the rumble
again. This time, I figured, I just started running up
the steps of the Millennium Hotel. And all the windows
were taken out on the bottom.
Q. They were already out, right?
A. They were already out. What it was was a
men's clothing store in there. I remembered the old
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W. QUICK
football thing. You know, if you are getting chased by
a guy, don't look back because it wastes time. So I
was just like I'm not looking back, I'm just running.
I had surgery on my left knee, so I'm still a little
injured. I'm still not hundred percent running. So I
just kept running, running, running, and dove into a
building. I looked at the building and there was two
gigantic pillars in the building. I went right behind
a pillar and as soon as I went behind the pillar,
darkness set in again.
Q. Same scenario?
A. Same scenario. This time I'm in the building
all by myself. I am in there and pulled my coat up and
get behind the pillar. Covered, same thing. Having a
talk with myself. Come on, you can survive. You know,
hang in there. Breathe, breathe in your coat, breathe
here. I'm coughing a little bit. This time --
Q. Did you feel that intense heat this time too?
A. I didn't feel the intense heat, but this time
the smoke lasted longer. Maybe because I was inside
the building or what have you, but the smoke lasted
more than ten minutes and I was down on the floor. I
would say at least 15 minutes. Like that. I kept
looking at my watch, like how long can I breathe and
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W. QUICK
everything else like that. I kept going for breaths in
the armpit of my arm and breathing in there and
breathing through my hood.
The smoke finally cleared. When the smoke
finally cleared where I could see stuff around me, I
walked out to the steps and it was still charged, still
smoke. All of a sudden a guy came up to me, I think he
was a fire patrol, because he had a red helmet on. He
said "Who are you? " I said Billy Quick. He said "I
have heard of you. I will stay with you. I have a
good chance of staying alive with you." So I was like
all right. Stay with me. I stood on the steps of the
Millennium Hotel for 25 minutes because the smoke was
so heavy and it took so long to get out, for it to get
out of the street and everything.
From the steps of the Millennium Hotel, the
wreckage that I saw was right across. These are the
steps, that's the handrail and this is the wreckage
that I saw. Famous wreckage there.
Q. That's all that was left?
A. That's all that was left.
Q. Pile of rubble on top.
A. There was heavy smoke all through this area.
I just stood there. I then, like, I was like oh, if I
15
W. QUICK
go in the pile and start searching for people and they
send another plane I can't move out there, I'm a
sitting duck. That's why I waited on the steps for 25
minutes. In that 25 minutes I overlooked everything.
Same thing, you know, people just coming out of the
woodwork very slowly, very cautiously. You know,
looking around, looking for people.
Finally after that, I remember looking at my
watch. It was like 12 o'clock. So I guess I stood on
the steps a little longer than what it really was. It
was 11 o'clock. It was like the top of the hour. I
set off and walked across the street. I walked on all
these ruins, all the way to Liberty Street and I came
back to Church. In the middle of Church, all of a
sudden a black fireman from 10 engine came walking up.
This guy had the thousand mile stare. He was just like
-- I said, how you doing. He just, he couldn't say
anything. I said all right, listen, stop, open up your
coat, okay, open up your bunker pants, okay, do you
know where your company is? He just shook his head. I
go all right. I was like, all right. I said from
here, do you know where your fire house is? He said
"Yes". I said I want you to go to your fire house and
just stay there. That's all I want you to do. He was
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W. QUICK
a young guy. He was black and I could tell from his
helmet that he was pretty new but he wasn't a proby.
That was the last I saw of him.
So then I just went from -- I stayed on the
Church side and I went from building four and I
searched in building four and was going into offices
looking for people. The building started -- was on
fire, and the building just started getting engulfed in
flames. I was making searches just as the fires were
starting.
Q. Where were you in the building?
A. First, second, third floor. I made it up
through the rubbish into the building. I started
looking for people in there too. The place was so
vast. I figured I would just stay on Church and just
work that area. Go back from four to five.
Q. Did you find anybody?
A. Didn't find anybody. Not in the buildings.
Not in the middle of these two buildings. I got to
five building and I went inside and yelled for people.
No people at all. I kept walking back. I finally left
about 6, 6:30 that night. Just like totally
exhausted. My car was parked here, Church and Vesey.
My car got totaled. It got wrecked. Windows were
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W. QUICK
smashed out of it, the front grille was all smashed.
My insurance company totaled it. They were like that's
it. So I lost my vehicle.
Q. Did you come across anybody after that time
while you were, you know, for those couple of hours --
A. I didn't come across any civilians, any
victims, any body parts.
Q. -- any supervisors or anybody else?
A. No --
Q. Independent pretty much?
A. Independently just going around searching. I
was the first one on this pile looking for victims. I
know that for a fact, because I was the only one
walking out there. Then all of a sudden ESU cops came
and they started towards the outskirts like that. Then
after that when I left them, I just walked out and I
said I bet nobody searched these buildings. That's
when I went in the building and I started searching
four and five.
I had been through a lot and it was pretty
late. After hours of being there I just sat down. I
had been through the mill here. I said I'm on
vacation. So I guess I will head home now. I called
my wife from inside. There were other people inside
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W. QUICK
the clothing store with me at the Liberty hotel there,
Liberty plaza. Millennium Hotel. The security guard,
he was like do you guys want to call home, tell them
you are all right. I says yes, please. I got in touch
with my wife and I said I'm okay.
From there I just worked nine days straight
down there. That's --
Q. Did you touch base with your officer at 134
at all?
A. I came back and I told him I was down there
for the collapse. In fact on my cell phone I called my
wife saying listen, I'm going in, there was a plane
hit. I have to go in. She goes you are on vacation.
I says yes, well, that's the way it is. That policeman
saved my life. The one that came out and said I need
help here. I said I'm here to help. I don't care who
it is. That was a big factor right there. I would
have been around the corner in this area too, going
towards the building, just like every other man.
That's the way it is gentlemen. I hope your news is
good news. I hope that helps you a little.
MR. McCOURT: Time is 8:45. Concluding this
interview. For the record the interview started
at 8:20. Thank you very much.
File No. 9110185
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DANIEL LYNCH
Interview Date: October 31, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
D. LYNCH
MR. TAMBASCO: I'm Mike Tambasco with the
World Trade Center Task Force. We are in the main
conference room on the fourth floor at Metrotech
in BITS. The time is 1632 hours.
Q. The subject of the interview today is?
A. Firefighter Daniel Lynch, assigned to Ladder
company 7. I'm presently detailed to the Fire
Commissioner's office as an aide to the Fire
Commissioner .
Q. Would you be good enough to just tell us your
story right from the beginning.
A. On the morning of September 11, I was on my
way to the medical office. I was not on duty that
day. I live on Staten Island. I was just about at the
Verrazano Bridge when I heard a radio report that there
was a fire at the World Trade Center. I changed radio
stations to a news station, at which point I heard that
there was a plane crash and they were interviewing
civilians that had witnessed it. There were several
different accounts; small plane, large plane, so on and
so forth.
It became apparent that it was a large
plane. By the time I got on to the Verrazano Bridge, I
certainly could see that there was a large fire going
D. LYNCH
on at the World Trade Center. There was a large amount
of smoke coming from that area. I was continuing on to
go to the medical office, which is at Fire Department
headquarters.
At some point in the radio broadcast they had
mentioned that another plane had hit the other tower.
I could visualize that from where I was on the
Gowanus. Traffic was starting to build up. I got off
the Gowanus and was taking the side streets. Along the
side streets I remember not only traffic being heavy,
but large amounts of people coming out of the subway
stations. Everything seemed to be kind of quiet. Kind
of an amazing thing. I guess I imagined that it must
have been like it might have been years ago during war
time, you know.
Obviously after the second plane hit it was
obvious to me and apparent to the news outlets that I
was listening to that this was some type of a
purposeful terrorist attack. Sometime in that trip I
had heard over the radio that there was a total recall
of all Fire Department personnel. I was on my way to
headquarters anyhow, so there wasn't anything different
that I would have done. I can recall just getting to
the back of Metrotech. There is a -- on Flatbush
D. LYNCH
Avenue. A van in front of me stopped, a fire officer
got out of the van because I believe it was Engine
Company 236 was en route down Flatbush Avenue, towards
the Manhattan Bridge. A fire officer waved the Engine
Company down and asked if they could wait for him to
get on while he parked his van. They said they would
wait. He parked his van behind Fire Department
headquarters, grabbed his gear and got on.
I checked into it in the next day or two and
it was Lieutenant Edward D'Atri assigned to Squad one,
who was lost in the World Trade Center. When I finally
got into the building I went upstairs to the 8th floor,
asked what to do, what we should be doing. Basically
the only people that were left on the 8th floor were
some of the secretarial staff with the exception of
Mike Vecchi. Mike was not aware of anything in
specific that we should be doing right now other than
let's sit and wait and find some direction as to what
might happen.
A short while later, somebody had said that
the first building had collapsed and certainly was very
much a surprise to myself and anybody else that was
present. When that building collapsed we had not heard
from any of the staff on the scene, anybody from Ray
D. LYNCH
Goldbach, the Commissioner's executive assistant, to
the Commissioner, to the First Deputy Commissioner.
Commissioner Fitzpatrick, Chief Ganci, Chief Nigro,
anybody that I could think of that we would have heard
from on the 8th floor they hadn't heard from yet.
I had made a determination that we needed to
try to contact them in some fashion and I was in the
process of getting a list of Nextel phone numbers so we
could start to call them on the Nextel phone number.
We didn't have the Nextel available to us to just beep
them on the walkie talkie portion of the Nextel so I
wanted the phone numbers.
In the process of procuring them, I ran into
a Firefighter Patrick Cleary, who works in the press
office. He was going to go over to the scene. Bear in
mind that both myself and Pat Cleary were dressed in
sneakers, shorts and T shirts. He said -- he asked me
if we had any gloves around. I found a couple of pairs
of work gloves in the Commissioner's office. I asked
one of the secretaries up on the 8th floor if she could
try to call as many people on the Nextel list as
possible and has she got in contact or has anybody
contacted her to start to develop a list of those
people. At least we would start with some type of
D. LYNCH
tracking point for senior staff, I guess was the
thought in my head. Pat Cleary had in mind that he had
to track down Commissioner Gribbon, who was his direct
supervisor in the office of public information, who he
had also not heard from.
We took the Commissioner's spare Suburban and
headed over towards the towards the site. As we
crossed the Manhattan Bridge, there were numerous
people walking across the bridge, obviously had been
involved in the collapse of the first building. Some
people with no shoes. Some people with -- certainly
everybody was in disarray.
We drove down along Bowery to Park Row South
and as we got closer to City Hall, it started to be the
development of the dust that was still floating
around. We got to the end of City Hall Park. There
was certainly some traffic problems, some increased
dust condition. There was some firefighters in
different areas starting to muster up in the area and
head down towards the World Trade Center plaza.
Traffic caused us to go north on Broadway to
Murray Street. We attempted to get masks from several
different ambulance services and finally on the corner
of Murray Street and Broadway there was an ambulance
D. LYNCH
there that had a couple of extra masks for us.
Just as we got the masks and were trying to
figure out what we were going to do next as far as head
in what direction, we started to hear a rumble that was
about a thousand times more intense than the sound of
the subway that runs underneath the ground, but
something similar to that. Like I said, a thousand
times more intense. With that, somebody came running
around the corner and I always make the comment that I
don't think his feet were touching the ground. To me I
would assume it was a police officer. He had a badge
around his neck. He was holding a handkerchief over
his mouth and he was saying run run run, the building
is coming down. There were some other people behind
him. The dust cloud was right behind them. We dove
back into the Suburban. By the time we got the windows
rolled up and the doors closed there was already a dust
condition inside the vehicle and then it just was like
several minutes of I say black snow, because the debris
and the dust just kept coming down on us.
We really had no idea what we were going to
do. Even if I had decided to drive the vehicle, if I
knew that I was going straight up Broadway, then maybe
we could get further away from the building, but there
D. LYNCH
was a vehicle blocking me and I couldn't do that, so it
was just a matter of let's wait and see what happens.
Afterwards, several days later I asked Pat Cleary what
we did. For the most part we were just like oh, shit
what are we going to do.
When the dust settled, we got -- proceeded to
go down Murray Street across Church Street, across West
Street, sorry that's West Broadway.
Q. West Broadway?
A. I think at one of the intersections of West
Broadway possibly or possibly Greenwich Street, there
was a fire truck there and we came up with the idea
that maybe we could use some tools from the fire
truck. It was Ladder 124's rig.
We got off. There wasn't much left on 124's
rig because they had obviously taken a good portion of
their own tools with them. But we did take one or two
axes, there was a flashlight. We took a Herst tool.
We took an oxygen bag and thermal imaging camera.
At that point I also ran into a Firefighter
that I know from 4 Engine, who I believe was the MPO of
4 Engine that day. His name was Bob Humphrey. Bob was
rattled to say the least. He mentioned that he thinks
his rig was crushed. He thinks his guys were crushed.
D. LYNCH
He is not sure. He didn't know where he was going. I
just mentioned to him make sure that somebody knows
where you are, wherever you go make sure somebody knows
that that's where you are.
We continued down in the Suburban down to
West Street. When we got to West Street it was like a
movie type of scene. There was about a foot half deep
of paper and dust and any movement created more of a
dust cloud. The first people we came across were
several firefighters and Chiefs. The one Chief was
Chief McNally, who I believe is a Deputy Chief. He was
in the process of trying to set up a command post. We
walked down further towards the site, which would be
Barclay or Vesey Street. I think on the intersection
of Vesey Street and West Street I saw Chief Hayden, a
Deputy Chief from the First Division. Chief Hayden was
aware of who I was because I know him, but certainly
was also obviously rattled. Both of these two Chiefs
were covered with dust, so they were certainly part of
whatever happened.
We decided to continue down to look for
anybody, the main mission being the senior staff,
although anybody that was found. I had had the thermal
imaging camera. I had looked around, there were fire
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D. LYNCH
trucks crushed, fire trucks on fire, cars, trucks, not
all on fire, but several on fire, large pieces of
steel. I guess some of the sheathing from the
building, I don't know if it's aluminum or what, but
other types of metal. The foot bridge was down, which
I think was considered the north foot bridge.
We had turned on the thermal imaging camera,
made a pass underneath some rigs, underneath the
walkway that was crushed down. I can remember looking
under the walkway and seeing a crushed fire truck. I
don't know what company it was, but the lights still
being on even though it was crushed down.
At one point I ran into a firefighter -- a
Fire Lieutenant I think from Rescue 1. Name I'm not
sure of. At that point he had started to climb over
some rigs and go into another area underneath that foot
bridge and being that I didn't have any equipment at
that time, I thought it best that I hand off the
thermal imaging camera to him and go and try to procure
equipment if I was going to stick around the scene any
longer .
I do recall somebody being, I think what it
might have been the top floor of 6 World Trade Center,
which was also looked like it was from a movie set the
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D. LYNCH
way it was devastated. From the top floor window,
which would be the northwest corner and I do believe
there was somebody with an apparatus making an attempt
to possibly get a ladder up to that person. I don't
know what the end result of that was.
When I walked back towards the corner of West
Street and Vesey Street, I saw Commissioner Gribbon and
Lieutenant McLaughlin, who also works in the Fire
Commissioner's office. I proceeded to go inside what I
guess is 3 World Financial Center, the American Express
building, make a phone call on a pay phone to Fire
Department headquarters where I told them that I had
accounted for Commissioner Gribbon and Lieutenant
McLaughlin and I was also informed by them that
Commissioner Von Essen and Captain Goldbach were at the
quarters of 24 Engine. I told the girl who answered
the phone, who was Sandy, to make sure that she reached
out to their wives and let them know that we had
accounted for them.
I had also questioned them if they saw anyone
else, such as Commissioner Feehan, Chief Ganci, Chief
Nigro or Commissioner Fitzpatrick or Commissioner
Tierney. They had said that they had seen them but
they weren't quite sure whether they saw them after
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D. LYNCH
both buildings had come down or not. I didn't make the
assumption that they were accounted for at that point.
I was heading back up to Murray Street where
the Suburban was parked and at that time I think told
Lieutenant McLaughlin that I was going to go to 24
Engine and see what the boss was doing and see what he
needed. At which point I walked back up to Murray
Street. There were some more firefighters starting to
gather at that point. Chief McNally was still there, I
think a Chief, Mark Ferran was there, several people,
Louis Garcia was there, Chief Garcia. At that point I
said I'm going to go up to 24 Engine. I got in the
vehicle and made my way up West Street to 24 Engine's
quarters.
When I got to 24 Engine's quarters, the
Mayor's people were there. The Fire Commissioner was
there and his executive assistant, Ray Goldbach. They
were having a little bit of a meeting behind one of the
offices. I acknowledged them through the glass
window. When he came out, he asked me what was going
on. I told him what I had known, what I had just been
previously said and that I had a vehicle here for him,
what did he want to do. He said well, just stick
around, let's see what we are going to do. There was a
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D. LYNCH
brief press conference.
We went from 24 Engine's quarters to the
Police Academy, where we started to set up a temporary
command post or a command center I should say. Also
with us at that time were 2 fire Marshals, Fire Marshal
Mike Owney, who is now promoted to Lieutenant, and Rich
-- I'm not sure what Rich's last name is. Somewhere
along the lines they had come across Commissioner Von
Essen and they had said to him if nobody is with you we
will stick with you and be secured and he agreed to
that and they did that.
At the command center on the 6th floor of the
Police Academy, we had gotten some phones that we could
utilize and we were starting to do whatever we possibly
could as far as get information from the scene, get
information from headquarters, kind of regroup in a
way.
There was many meetings that the Commissioner
and the Mayor had in and out of offices. I guess at
one point the Governor showed up and some additional
press conferences. I guess at one one point, some
additional staff came, such as some of the other
Commissioners' drivers and at one point when we first
got there, being that I was in the shorts and T-shirt
14
D. LYNCH
when I first dropped the boss off and found out where
we were and what we were doing, I told him that I was
going to go get a uniform, so I stopped by my own fire
house, which is Ladder company 7, a few blocks away
from the Police Academy and I got my bunker gear and
some work duty clothing.
Then I also went to Engine 39 where we parked
the Commissioner's vehicle and I got my uniform and
proceeded back down to the Police Academy. One thing
that I noticed when I was going to 39 Engine, which is
on 67 Street between Third and Lex, the New York City
blood bank is on 67 Street between First and Second and
there was a line all the way around the corner of
people to donate blood. I felt that this thing had
just happened minutes ago and I was kind of amazed at
that, you know.
We went back down to the command center.
Probably spent the next several hours going back and
forth from the site to the command center for several
different reasons. The possibility of some recoveries,
to get information, to get some communication set up,
whether it was by cellphone or by 800 megahertz
radios. Communications I know it was a difficult
situation in the beginning.
15
D. LYNCH
I believe it was about 10 o'clock at night,
we were back down at the scene along with -- I can
remember Chief Fellini being there and the
Commissioner. It seemed like they were trying to gear
up for whatever the tasks were going to be for the
overnight. Lighting was an issue, we were getting some
lighting, heavy equipment was an issue. That was
coming in. I remember earlier in the day there was a
meeting and I don't recall exactly who was there or
where it was at, but we talked about how it was going
to get dark fast and we needed equipment.
There were many issues about the amount of
people that were there and how we could control them
and the amount of apparatus that was there and how we
could control that and certainly seemed to be a
monumental task in the late hours of that day, but the
early stages of the whole operation.
That's pretty much a good synopsis of the
first day. I think by the time we finished up that
first day it was probably around 2 or 3 a.m. By the
time we dropped the Commissioner off and tried to get
some semblance of what we needed to do from our
standpoint of view as the Commissioner's aides. Picked
them up the following morning at 6 a.m. and that became
16
D. LYNCH
a routine for about seven days. I think that's pretty
much it as far as that first day.
Q. Anything else you would like to add to it,
just --
A. The only thing it's something that I'm sure
many people have said and I just recall that those
first -- those first minutes from the time that sound
started, the rumbling started to occur and the dust
started to fall and then stopped to get gear and
equipment from the fire truck and then continue down to
West Street and getting there and seeing the crushed
fire trucks, crushed cars, vehicles on fire. It was
like a movie set.
It was amazing and the people that I did see
and I didn't see anybody that was hurt physically at
least serious. But all the people I saw certainly were
rattled, understandably rattled, but because might not
have been able to get the answer that you wanted out of
them, you know, but understandably.
As time went on we had heard of some of the
fatalities and we were hopeful in many cases about
certain people that unfortunately didn't pan out. I
guess Father Judge and Commissioner Feehan and Chief
Ganci were the first three majors that came across and
17
D. LYNCH
what can we say about that, you know. It was obvious
from early on to us that the toll on the Department,
whatever the numbers might have been at that time in
anybody's head, it was going to be heavy. Certainly
knew that it was something that the Department, nobody
could have ever believed was happening. Oh well.
Before September 11, yes, yes, sure, that
will never happen. After September 11 I think we all
know that anything can happen.
MR. TAMBASCO: All right then. I thank you
for your interview. The interview concludes at
1656 hours.
File No. 9110219
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MARK RUPPERT
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
M. RUPPERT 2
CHIEF LAKIOTES: Today's date is
December 4th, 2001. The time is 11:45. I
am Lieutenant Chief Art Lakiotes here at the
command of the New York City Fire
Department. I am conducting an interview
with --
FIREFIGHTER RUPPERT: Mark Ruppert .
CHIEF LAKIOTES: -- Firefighter Mark
Ruppert regarding the events of September
11th, 2001.
Q. Mark, if you would, just take me
through the time you got on the rigs, responded
and what transpired during this event.
A. We got to the box about 10 to 9. We
went to a staging area outside the Battery Tunnel
with about five other companies that met us
there, 101 being one of them, and 202 and 205.
We were watching the tower burn when
the second one hit. We actually saw the second
one hit and the plane burst into flames. Not
even a minute later we were sent in to the box.
So we went through the tunnel.
After we got through the tunnel, we
pulled up right in front of the building, weaving
M. RUPPERT 3
in and out of the other trucks. We got a spot
out in front there. We got out and we said, you
know what -- the chauffeur pulled the rig around
the corner. There were so many rigs there
already.
We went across the street, across West
Street, and we were waiting there. As we were
waiting there -- well, you don't want to know
about the bodies jumping. You know all that.
Q. Whatever you feel like talking about,
just tell me.
A. We were there for about 15 minutes, 10,
15 minutes. Then we got orders to follow up. So
we went under the overpass. We crossed Liberty,
went under the overpass and then proceeded into
the lobby of the Marriott, crossing Liberty.
As we entered the lobby, we entered it
through the bar area. Then we went into the
lounge area which connected, from what I
understand, to tower one and tower two.
We were told to get comfortable because
we were going to be there a while. Some got real
comfortable. I left my bunker pants on and took
them off when I -- I think I left my coat in
M. RUPPERT 4
there. I took my coat off because it was hot,
took the tank off, put our tools down. I went to
use the bathroom, got something to drink there.
They had water set up. There was a lot of
companies in the lobby there.
Q. What time was that? Do you have any
idea how many guys were in that lobby at that
time? 10? 20? 30? 40?
A. I would definitely say between 75 and
100, I would say. It was full. The whole lobby
was - -
Q. Full of firefighters?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Lieutenant Wood went to the command
post staging area for instructions?
A. Yeah. Let's see. He took a walk down
there, down the lobby, and came back and said --
actually when we went that way, he told us to go
to the bathroom, try to use the phone, which I
tried but I didn't get through on my phone call.
We used the bathroom, whatever.
When I got back, he was back. He said,
"All right, we're going to go down to --" I
thought he said we're going to go to work. I
M. RUPPERT 5
thought we were going to go relieve companies up
there. He said we're going to go to a staging
area down in the other tower, the north tower.
Basically just at that time I had my --
I got my coat back on. I had my mask in my hand.
I was about to put it on my back and --
Q. You started hearing a noise?
A. No, no. Looking out the window -- I
was facing the window, and I saw everybody
running.
Q. Gary said the same thing. You knew
something was going on.
A. I yelled. I said, "Everybody run.
Something is going on." We were basically
looking out and you saw everybody running. Then
you look up. You hear rumbling. You hear
something. So you look up and we saw the
reflection of the building across the street. We
knew something was coming down.
Then we just said hit the deck.
Everybody was running towards the back of the
lobby. We ran into an area where we were -- we
were running kind of towards the bar area where
we came in. So I guess instinct tells you to go
M. RUPPERT 6
the way you came in, so instinct.
You felt it all coming. You felt the
rumbling. You heard it hitting the floor. Then
it was just that hit and the wind came and was
blowing us. Back into the bar area is where it
blew us. Somewhere along the line a rolldown
gate came down between the lobby and the bar, and
we realized that was the only way out after a few
minutes of being in there. We didn't know what
was in there. We lifted the gate up to get out.
What were you going to say? You were
going to say something?
Q. I was running down Liberty. I was one
of the guys you saw running, because we could see
it actually happening. We looked up -- see, I'm
surprised -- what was in my mind and I could
never forget it is the noise it made.
A. Yeah.
Q. It was like a train --
A. A freight train.
Q. -- going over my head. When Gary said
that you thought you heard something, it really
was incredible. He didn't hear what we heard.
We knew he was right under it, but we heard from
M. RUPPERT 7
the outside.
A. Did you hear the snapping on that? Did
you hear the floor snapping? After the first one
came, we wound up going across the street. We
wound up -- we were going where the windows were.
We were going out that way. We didn't realize we
were out of the building until we were in the
middle of West Street, basically. There was a
crevice that we were climbing down and all this
steel --
Q. What was the visibility like?
A. It was very hazy, very thick. But you
could see. You look back and you couldn't really
see the building -- anything. But once you were
across the street, you look and you see the
structure, steel sticking up still.
Then when we were across the street --
as we were going, there was a guy in a bush. He
might have been a reporter of some kind. David
something. I grabbed someone else and said,
"Let's get this guy." We pulled him across the
street, and we took him with us into -- there was
a deli over there. We put him in there.
Then as we said what are we going to do
M. RUPPERT 8
now, what are we going to do with this guy,
what's our next move, that's when the second
building -- I guess 10 minutes later? 15 minutes
later? I don't know. It seemed like that much.
But then we saw the other one coming
down. Part of you wanted to keep looking because
it was like holy cow. You could hear it going
"kachoo, kachoo, kachoo." Now outside it's total
hysteria, and you had time because it's this big
building. You had -- I don't know, how long did
it take? Looking at it we said we better get in.
We started running. We realized we've
got to get cover. We all started diving into
this store, pushing each other in, pushing a guy
and he's pushing you. You get in there, and it's
basically the same thing. That wind was blowing
and debris messed that building up. All the
windows were broken in the front of the building.
We thought we were buried in there. Somebody
started panicking, and somebody took over and
told them to shut the hell up.
Q. That bad?
A. Yeah.
Then somebody walked outside and said
M. RUPPERT 9
let's see if we can get outside. It was clear.
You couldn't see anything, but we could walk out
and we weren't buried. The dust was settling.
We grabbed that guy again and we pulled
him down West Street to the water, and they took
him in the boat. Then we walked along the water
to where they were evacuating people. We got a
bunch of people on. Everybody was standing
around. Finally officers said, "You guys, we're
going to go now. "
That ' s basically it .
Q. You don't know how much time you have
on the job? I asked your chief about it, but I
don't remember.
A. I have like three years.
Q. Okay. So don't know of anybody you saw
in the lobby except for your own company?
A. I remember seeing guys from 101.
Q. You do?
A. Yeah.
Q. At what point in time do you remember
seeing them?
A. I saw them on the outside of the tunnel
when we met there. Then we pulled into 101. I
M. RUPPERT 10
know the faces. I think it was a guy from 122.
I saw 122 in there. 101, I'm pretty sure they
were down in front. We were in the lobby. They
went down further, and we were on this side.
Q. You were more towards the Liberty
Street side?
A. We were more towards Liberty, yeah, and
they were in front of there. There was dozens of
firemen. I don't know why at that point -- I
know after we came down and I was walking out and
I couldn't find my helmet and my tools. I was
kicking a helmet, so I shook it off, I put it on
my head, and I went out, thinking it was mine.
A guy when I was outside, he said,
"You're from 58?" I said, "No, I just found this
helmet." I didn't even know what number was on
it. He said, "That's my helmet." So whether it
was or not, he got his helmet back. So I know 58
was in there.
Q. You didn't see anybody from 101 after
that?
A. No, no. After that it was who was with
us there. Basically it was guys from our
company. There was a pedestrian or two. That
M. RUPPERT 11
was about it, really. I can't hardly remember.
I know it was us from our company. There were a
few other firefighters, that guy there from 58.
That's it. I can't remember anybody else being
with us there. There weren't too many with us.
There were about 10, 12 guys there, maybe.
That's it.
Q. Your memory is better than mine,
believe me.
A. Part of you starts searching, thinking
you're going to find tools, find my helmet, any
other guys. It was just such a mess.
Q. How was the visibility?
A. They said we're going out, everybody
out, grab people and we're going out.
Q. How was the visibility in the lobby of
the hotel after the collapse?
A. It was settling. It was like a thick
smoke. It was thick. It was a thick dust. You
could see. It was settling. At first you
couldn't see a thing. I was worried about
breathing. I couldn't see. I had my hood over.
Good thing I had the hood. I had that over my
mouth, and I was breathing through that. You're
M. RUPPERT 12
kicking a lot of dust and dirt and papers.
Everybody looked like a statue. All you could
see was the guys and the mouth.
Q. The eyes were all red.
A. Yeah. It seemed like everybody was
going "blah" with their mouth and spitting. We
went to the guy across the street and we kind of
tried to towel up, get the junk out. It was bad,
but you could see. It was like a thick fog. You
could actually see to get to walk. You could see
in front of you.
I wish --
Q. You did fine.
A. I'm pretty aware of when I go to jobs I
look at different companies that are there.
Q. Sure.
A. I just wish I would have a little
more --
Q. Let me tell you, it was traumatic for
everybody that was there. A lot of us don't
remember a lot that went on.
Okay. Thank you.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: This concludes the
interview. It is approximately 12:00.
File No. 9110220
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD DAVIS
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
E. DAVIS
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: Today's date is
December 4, 2001. The time is approximately
11:10. This is Chief Art Lakiotes of the Safety
Battalion, New York City Fire Department. I'm
conducting an interview with --
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD DAVIS: Firefighter Edward
Davis.
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: Who was assigned
to Battalion 32. Regarding the events of
September 11, 2001.
Q. Eddie, just take me through your response to
the World Trade Center and what transpired after that.
A. Responded to the World Trade Center with the
21 Battalion. The 32 Battalion car was at the rock.
Responded with them, arrived about 2 minutes prior to
the first collapse, which I believe was the south
tower. Upon that collapse, was upon the scene also for
the second collapse, and conducted a search and
attempted rescue from that point on.
Q. Did you see anybody else that was there that
may have not made it, can you think of anybody?
A. Can't think of anybody that didn't make it.
Ladder 101 was there, but I hadn't seen any of them
prior to my arrival other than being in the fire house
E. DAVIS
before the start of our tours.
Q. Everyone you saw in that area, myself
included, you saw afterwards?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. There is no way of telling where anybody was
that didn't make it at that point?
A. That's correct.
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: Okay Ed. Thank
you.
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD DAVIS: Okay, Chief.
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: This concludes the
interview at approximately 11:15.
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File No. 9110221
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER ERIC BERNTSEN
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
E. BERNTSEN
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: Today's date is
December 4, 2001. The time is 1300 hours. My
name is Battalion Chief Art Lakiotes of the Safety
Command. I am conducting an interview with --
FIREFIGHTER BERNTSEN: Eric Berntsen.
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: -- Firefighter
Eric Berntsen regarding the events of September
11, 2001.
Q. Eric, would you just mind telling me in your
own words, from the time you responded, exactly where
and what and how the day unfolded for you.
A. Okay. We heard the explosions from the
kitchen. We went up on the roof and got there just in
time to see the second plane hit the towers. So we
figured we would be going on that. So we ran
downstairs. By the time we got down to the apparatus
floor, we got the ticket. It was about five after
9:00. I jumped on the rig. I was an extra man. The
dispatcher came over and announced to bring the extra
man. I was supposed to be detailed to 205, but I
called to quarters and they said they were out, so I
jumped on the rig.
We went down to the Trade Center. On the way
there, we experienced a lot of traffic. We went over
E. BERNTSEN
the Brooklyn Bridge, came down Church Street, made a
right onto Liberty, and parked near 10 and 10' s
quarters, on the opposite side, on 10 and 10's side of
Liberty. We grabbed the rollups and an extra bottle
and walked down Liberty towards West Street. When we
got to the corner of West Street, we made a right and I
ran into the Marriott. We stopped underneath the
pedestrian bridge where a lot of guys were using that
for shelter, so we didn't get hit by anything coming
down, bodies, et cetera.
We ran into the Marriott and stayed by the
security desk there. The officer went off, got orders
from a Chief, and we were told to go to the 74th floor
of the south tower. He came back, told us what we were
doing. We gathered the company together, started
heading north through the Marriott. Then we made a
right and went down the ramp to get to the concourse
level.
We headed eastbound in the concourse level to
where it first turns up to the left, where the mall
turns up to the left, up north, and we got to that
corner and the officer told us to wait there. Instead
of carrying the stuff all around, he was going to try
to find a staircase or the best way we could get up.
E. BERNTSEN
He walked away. He went west in the concourse and
talked to a security guy. He was, I guess, about 100
feet away from us, maybe more.
That's when we heard the building start
shaking. I looked up into the Marriott, because you
could see up into it from where we were standing, and
just saw black, like dust. I saw stuff falling off the
ceiling and I saw just black dust coming down. I
turned and I ran a couple of steps west, a couple of
steps east, and then we turned up north, up into the
concourse, because I didn't see anything falling in
that area at that time. So I felt that was the safest
direction to go. I jumped into a corner. The lights
went out. I jumped into a corner under an archway. I
thought maybe that might provide some better support.
I just held my helmet. I figured we were going to get
like a pancake collapse on top of us.
After the building stopped shaking and there
was no rumbling noise any more, Vinny Picciano of 212
regrouped the company by saying 212, regroup, get
back. 212, where are you? We all got back together.
We all turned on our lights. We talked to the
civilians, told them to keep quiet, to stay calm, don't
yell or scream, everybody stay calm, we are going to
E. BERNTSEN
get out of here. We asked if anybody knew how to get
out. Me and this guy who was with us, he said he knew
how, but he couldn't really see too much. He looked
like he was blinded by the dust. We just walked store
to store. He was asking us what store do you see? We
told him all the stores and we just headed north
through the concourse and came out in between the PATH
and the number 1 and number 9 line. There is an exit
there that comes out into building 5. It comes out on
the exterior of building 5, which leaves you off in the
middle of Vesey Street, between Church and West
Broadway.
We got out, myself and Jimmy Murphy, who was
detailed to 212 from 220 Engine. We chocked the doors
outside, went back in, told all the people this is an
exit. We had about 50 civilians with us. We told them
to exit out that way. We made kind of like a chain
with lights, with flashlights, so they could see where
they were going to get them out. Once everybody was
out, we went back in and we started searching.
We tried to give a Mayday for our officer
because our officer wasn't with us. We couldn't find
him. We went back in and we searched the stores,
searched the PATH. There were some more people still
E. BERNTSEN
in there. I remember a guy from the GAP. He was the
manager. I asked if anybody was in there. He said no,
he was the last guy to leave. So we got him out. We
found a guy, probably in his mid 40s, bald head, or
short crew cut hair, under the concrete. We picked him
up, put him in a chair and carried him out.
When we got out on to Vesey, there was a Port
Authority cop with us and he said that they were given
reports that the second building was going to come
down. So we made a decision we'd better leave. We
came out of the door on Vesey Street. We were
exhausted from carrying this gentleman who was pretty
heavy, we estimated about 300 pounds, 275. It took six
guys to carry him. We were all exhausted. We were
changing. We didn't know if we could get him out of
there before this building was going to come down, so
we put him down for a second, took a breath, and made a
decision to just go for it and pick him up. We made it
a couple of steps and then we heard the rumble and we
knew the second tower was coming down. Everybody let
go of the guy and ran. There was no talking, no
looking. You just went.
Q. What direction?
A. There was a cop, NYPD, I'm pretty sure it was
E. BERNTSEN
an NYPD guy, and Vinnie Picciano were in front of me.
We were facing north. We didn't even reach the
sidewalk. We didn't even get off the sidewalk in front
of building 5. I saw them run forward, north, heading
across the street.
Q. Up West Broadway?
A. Across Vesey Street from where building 5
is. Directly straight across Vesey Street towards the
Federal Office Building, the Post Office. Vinnie and
the cop jumped under a car. Vinnie Picciano jumped up
on top of him. There was no room for me there and I
thought I could make it a little bit further than
that. So once I hit the sidewalk on the Federal
Building, on Vesey, I turned right, which had me east
on Vesey Street, and I started running. Then I looked
up and I saw a dark cloud and I grabbed my helmet.
The force knocked me down, blew me. I don't
know how far I went, but I went forward pretty far. It
knocked the wind out of me. I got covered with debris
and just kept my hands on my helmet. Something pretty
big hit me and knocked my helmet off. I felt a blast
and just a lot of pressure when it hit me. So I had no
helmet. I put my hands back on top of my head and I
felt debris hit me. I felt weight piling up on my back
E. BERNTSEN
and I figured I was going to be under what I thought
was about 10 feet of rubble.
When it all stopped, I said what do I do
now? I said, well, I can't breathe. Let me get my
mask on. I got my mask out. I didn't realize my
bottle wasn't on. So I couldn't reach it because I was
face down, and I kind of gave up. Then I was still
laying there. I said I can't just lay here. I said
let me get out of here. Let me see how deep I am, see
what I can do. I remember saying I have no radio, this
fucking job, I can't get any kind of radio.
When I pulled myself out from this debris
that was on my back and my legs, I was up against the
wall of the Federal Building, and then I realized it
was still pitch black. I said I must be in a big void
because it was pitch black and I couldn't see
anywhere.
Then, as it started lightening up a little
bit, I started using my light. I was able to see over
the top of the debris around me. I could see up the
wall a little bit. I realized, holy shit, I'm free.
I'm not buried. I got up. I took a step and just
collapsed because I had no energy. I got up again,
took two more steps and collapsed. Then a cop picked
E. BERNTSEN
me up and helped me walk up to Church. I made a left
on Church and there was a car on fire on the corner.
Maybe 50 feet, 100 feet up Church, I saw
Vinnie Picciano, who was under the car with that cop.
He was stumbling around. He had a bad gash on the back
of his head. There was blood coming out from the back
of his turnout coat. He was a little dizzy and
disoriented. He asked me to look at his cut. I told
him it's all right. You will be okay. I didn't really
think so, but what are you going to tell him at that
point? I said you got a good cut, but you're going to
be all right.
We walked up Church, made a right on to
Barclay and dropped our masks and continued up to
Broadway and got to I guess it was Park Place maybe and
Broadway. We got into the back of an ambulance and got
Vinnie 's head checked out. Then we left the ambulance
because there were secondary collapses. I was hearing
secondary collapses and I didn't know how far away we
were. I didn't know how much of the building came
off. I said I want to get out of here, as far away
from this place as possible.
We headed north and got to Duane Street. I
said, oh, the 7 and 1 is over here. We made a left and
10
E. BERNTSEN
we walked into the quarters. Three guys that were in
the company, Jimmy Murphy, Joe Galasso, Danny Walker,
they were all standing there.
Q. What company are they in?
A. 212. Same company. Me and Vinnie thought
they were dead because we were the only two that walked
in. We only saw each other on Church. They must have
came out before us, after us, you know. What happened
is they ran back into World Trade Center 5. Me and
Vinnie and the cop ran forward. So they were okay, but
they got beat up with the debris. They got tossed
around, blown off their feet. So we had everybody
except the officer and the chauffeur. We didn't know
where the chauffeur was because we were on the complete
opposite side now.
We saw a Chief. We let the Chief know that
these guys were missing. So we regrouped and from 7
and 1 we took an ambulance to Jamaica Hospital,
Queens. That's most of my recollection.
Q. The Lieutenant and the chauffeur?
A. They were alive. The chauffeur got blown
down I don't know what street. Somewhere.
Q. He was with the rig?
A. Yes, he was with the rig. The officer made
11
E. BERNTSEN
it out with some of the guys from 238. I don't know
how they got out. I don't know which direction they
went in.
Q. I'll try to get an interview with him.
A. Yes. But he made it out and he was with
Lieutenant Glenn Wilkinson. They were trying to come
back, to get back into the building, because he knew we
were in there, and they were trying to get a mask. By
the time they got masks for each of them, they lost it
after the collapse. They were tangled and stuff. They
dropped it. I don't know about looking for my officer.
Q. What was his name?
A. Neil Brosnan.
Q. Did you notice any other companies in the
lobby of the Marriott when you were in there?
A. No, I didn't. The only person I saw that I
recognized was Chuck Margiotta and he was asking
everybody if they had an extra mask for a Chief.
Q. His unit is?
A. I don't know what unit he was working in that
day. I believe he was assigned to 85 Truck, but I
don't know where he was working that day.
Q. You saw him in the lobby?
A. I saw him in the lobby.
12
E. BERNTSEN
Q. Do you remember how far down in the lobby off
of Liberty, off the staircase? A hundred feet down?
A. About 100 feet down. I saw him there, but
then he left. I don't know how far he went, but I saw
him headed north.
Q. Towards tower 1?
A. Right. Towards the north tower. I saw him
headed that way.
Q. How many guys do you think were in the lobby
at that point when you got there; 20, 50, 100, crowded?
A. At least 50. Probably over 10, maybe 15
companies, 12 companies, something like that. There
were Chiefs. I saw a couple of Chiefs who were just
kind of walking through. I don't remember who they
were.
Q. What happened to the rig? Did the rig
survive?
A. The rig survived. It got beat up, the
windows blown out, a little fire damage, not that
much.
BATTALION CHIEF LAKIOTES: Okay. Very good.
Excellent. This concludes the interview. It is
now 1320.
File No. 9110222
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER VINCENT MASSA
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
V. MASSA 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: Today is December 4th,
2001. The time is 4:44. This is Battalion
Chief Dennis Kenahan of the safety battalion
of the New York City Fire Department. I'm
conducting an interview with Vincent Massa,
firefighter first grade of Engine 64.
Q. Tell me what happened on September
11th.
A. I was working that day. It was regular
code work fire house. I saw on the news that the
planes had hit, and about five minutes after the
second plane hit they sent us to a staging area
at 35 Engine and home with a rig. I had the
control position. I had a radio.
We got on the rig, gathered everything
we thought we would need, flashlights and extra
clothes and stuff, because we knew it would be
crazy and we'd be there at least a day. We went
down Bruckner Boulevard towards 35 Engine, which
is in Harlem. You could see the towers burning
while driving down the Bruckner.
On the way down there, we were
listening to the radio. I believe we switched
over to the Manhattan frequency. As we were
V. MASSA 3
going down the Bruckner, you heard the
dispatcher -- it seemed like a Manhattan
dispatcher, unless he had us on citywide --
talking to the units that were at the scene. You
heard different things going on.
The dispatcher announced that elevators
were dropping. I remember them saying at first
to stay out of one of the elevators that serviced
the 44th floor. Then less than a minute later
they said not to use any elevators. This is as
we're driving down the Bruckner, things we were
hearing on the radio. He said to stay out of all
elevators because the elevators were dropping.
We knew that there was something crazy going on.
As we were approaching closer to
Harlem, we got out of sight of the buildings. I
remember hearing different things. I remember
hearing "major collapse" on the radio. That's
one thing that threw me about the whole thing was
that when we got to the scene we didn't know what
had happened exactly.
To jump ahead a little bit, when we got
to the scene, we got there between the two
collapses. We had no idea that the first
V. MASSA 4
building was already completely down. All we
heard on the radio was major collapse, and we
figured the top fell off. So we heard elevators
are dropping, then we heard major collapse, then
we heard the dispatcher calling out for anybody
and nobody was answering. A few minutes later we
heard a chauffeur from one of the rigs screaming,
screaming that he was trapped and screaming, and
then out. |
We got to Harlem, and we joined up on
the ticket -- we went on the fifth alarm, one of
the fifth alarms; I don't remember which one. We
went with five or six other Bronx engine
companies that were meeting with 35 Engine in
Harlem. There was 35, us, 64, 83 Engine, 68
Engine, 94 Engine and 50 Engine. We all met up
with 35 Engine. We were there. They were
gathering tools up. We were waiting for the
other engine companies to come in.
Once everybody got in, we started
aligning like, it's a funny thing but we ended up
leading the pack. It was a convoy. I figured 35
would end up leading the pack, but we ended up
leading. Circumstances brought us to put our rig
V. MASSA 5
in the front, and we ended up leading.
So we were waiting in house 35. You
could hear everything that was going on. They
were calling us. They were trying to get like a
roll call of us, exactly what companies were
there. They said they were waiting for other
companies to show up before sending us and
telling us where to report to down at the site.
Once everybody was there, they got
everybody accounted for, we started heading down.
It turns out we bought ourselves some time which
probably saved our lives because our chauffeur
was leading. Instead of going right to the West
Side Highway, because he could have gone right
around the block to the west side, we shot
straight down. I remember him telling us on the
way there that the west side was wide open. He
had gone down Third Avenue and down through
Central Park and through construction. It bought
us like ten minutes.
Once we got down there, we got down to
the West Side Highway. There were other
companies behind us. Some of the companies split
off and pulled ahead of us. We had a covering
V. MASSA 6
officer that day. He told us to park in a
certain spot, and it was maybe about four blocks
north on West Street. We were to report to the
command post on West and Vesey or the West Street
command post.
We got all our stuff, got out of the
rig and were getting ready. Our chauffeur didn't
have a mask, so the boss told him to stay behind,
to stay with the rig, in case he needed to move
the rig to use it for anything.
At this point, like I said, we didn't
know that one tower had come down. We were all
there trying to see what was there, and we
couldn't tell. We thought it was there, but we
couldn't see it because of the smoke and the dust
and everything. It turned out it wasn't there.
The second one was still standing, the north
tower .
So we got our equipment and we started
walking down, and we got to somewhere between
three-quarters to a half a block away, within a
block, when the north tower came down. We were
walking down with the companies we were with. 94
Engine was there. I remember seeing the guys
V. MASSA 7
from 94 with us. They all made it out.
So as we were walking up, we had our
rollups and stuff. I don't know what we planned
on doing with them, but we figured we were going
to go operate somehow. We were supposed to
report to the command post.
As we got like a half a block away, you
could hear a gigantic rumble. It sounded like a
jet flying overhead. Everybody immediately
looked up, and you could see just a big cloud of
dust coming down to the ground. I didn't see the
actual top of the building coming down, but you
knew what it was .
So we looked up, and there was probably
about a 30-story tidal wave of crap coming down
West Side Highway. As soon as we saw it,
everyone stopped, looked for a second, and it
took everybody a couple seconds for it register
what was going on and that we had to get the hell
out of there.
We were standing there -- we were
fairly close, not as close as other guys. We had
our masks. I had a radio. We had our masks. I
had tools in my pocket, what I thought we needed
V. MASSA 8
to hook up with, like gloves, a monkey wrench, an
adapter that was going to carry the whole thing
up 80 flights.
We were standing there, and somebody
yelled "run." We were all looking and whatever
guys were in the street, it was like a sea of
guys from all the companies that were down there.
There were a few civilians down there. We just
turned around and were just running down West
Side Highway as fast as we could, running,
looking over your shoulder. We were watching
this cloud of shit chasing us down the street.
I hit the ground after running maybe a
block, probably not even, maybe half a block. I
remember I got past the last intersection. We
walked a block, and I ran and I crossed through
that intersection that was a block away that was
in between there until -- I remember looking
before it hit us to see where I was, and I was
like close to another intersection.
I went to my knees, put my mask on, and
the cloud of shit hit us, like little bits of
rubble. There wasn't anything big at that point
because we were far enough away, I guess. I had
V. MASSA 9
stuff hitting my helmet, "dung, dung, dung." It
just got pitch-black. It went from a sunny day
to just total blackness.
I was wearing my mask. I figured I was
going to make a right and go behind the
buildings. I wasn't near anything. A couple
guys jumped behind cars. I wasn't near any cars
or anything. I figured I'd make a right. It was
pitch-black. Literally your hand could be on
your face and you wouldn't see it.
So I stopped, took a few steps, made a
deliberate right turn and then started walking
straight to try and get behind the buildings,
wearing my mask. I got about ten paces after
making the turn to go to the right, and another
fireman kind of like jumped on me, screaming. He
dropped his mask. I think he was from 9 Engine.
I'm not sure. 9 Truck or 9 Engine. I think it
was 9 Engine. He had forgotten his mask. He had
dropped his mask, and he was flipping out.
So I grabbed him. We walked a couple
of paces. I had my hand out in front, trying to
find something, just to get down some kind of
protection or something. I brought him to the
V. MASSA 10
ground, and I started giving him my mask. We
were sharing my mask. We were sitting on the
ground, and I let him take what he needed, I'd
hold my breath and he gave it back and we were
just going back and forth.
I'd say after about maybe a good five
minutes it started lightening up. As it started
to lighten up, he got up and was like, "Thank
you, thank you, thank you. What's your name?
What's your name? Where are you from?" Blah,
blah, blah. I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." I
had to go. I have to find the rest of my guys.
Everything was covered with gray,
everybody. Two, three inches of dust and crap on
the ground, papers everywhere. I don't remember
hearing anything on the radio all that time,
nothing at all, really. Going down there I'm
trying to remember if I remember hearing anything
while we were walking towards it. I don't
remember. Nothing jumps out that I remember
hearing anything coming over the radio.
Q. Did you see anything, like the
building, anything that -- a sign that it might
be coming down or anything like that or no?
V. MASSA 11
A. As we were walking down?
Q. Yeah.
A. No. Some of the guys that were walking
were looking up. As it was coming down, I must
have been looking straight ahead or down. I
heard the rumble. By the time I looked up, it
was just a big cloud of shit. You saw a cloud of
stuff coming down, and almost like it turned a
corner and was coming down the block.
We stood there looking at it -- you
look at it to judge to see am I too close, am I
all right here. If you could see it diminishing,
then maybe you'll be all right, no problem, I'll
be all right. But it was just getting bigger and
bigger. Everyone just like "ah," and ran.
There was a lot of chaos on the radio
after the dust lifted and it started getting
light out. I remember listening out, and I made
some calls to my officer, because I remember
which direction they went in. Before we ran and
split up, we all ran in a general direction. We
all ran north.
After a while I was monitoring the
radio to hear from him, and I called him on the
V. MASSA 12
radio. I heard other things, people calling
other people. I don't remember exactly. Nothing
stands out. We hooked up together -- he told me
where he was after I got him on the radio. He
was underneath the overpass at Chambers. There's
that overpass on West Street. So we met up over
there .
Once we all got together, we started
walking back in because we all wanted to try to
get in and do something and get to a command post
and see -- we had no idea what had happened. We
figured there was still a command post. We
figured we would go to the command post.
As we were heading down, everybody
dropped their shit. We dropped all our rollups .
I dropped my gloves, my wrench, everything. I
had nothing but my mask, my helmet and my bunker
gear. So I was concerned about if we're going to
go in and we're going to do something, I've got
to get a pair of gloves on.
I was scrounging around. There were
tools and stuff all over the West Side Highway.
It was completely covered with tools and gear and
shit just everywhere. I scrounged up a pair of
V. MASSA 13
gloves. As we were going in, we passed some
rigs, we grabbed some stuff. I grabbed a
halogen. I found the search rope.
We were just grabbing everything we
could get our hands on as we were heading back
in, because we figured we were going to be doing
something with all the work.
As we started walking down, we figured
we would try to find the command post. I
remember we were walking down and we got to
almost where we were when it came down, like
within a half a block away or so, and I think
Stuyvesant High School is on -- as you're walking
south on West is on the right side by the water
there .
There were reports coming over the
radio that there was a secondary device in
Stuyvesant High School, that there was a major
gas leak and to evacuate the area. Everybody
turned around and started heading north again.
We were like, Jesus Christ, what the hell is
next? Everybody was shell-shocked. We figured
this building is going to explode now, you know.
So we started walking north again, and
V. MASSA 14
we were still concerned about finding a command
post. We stood there for a minute or two and we
were like -- I don't know, this is bullshit, and
let's start heading back in.
We started heading back in. We changed
our bottles on the west side. Another reason we
changed our bottles, we were trying to find a
command post and there was none. I remember the
officers all calling, trying to find out where to
meet up. But there was no command post, so there
was kind of chaos. Nobody knew where to go.
As we were waiting on the west side for
something to do, I remember two fire marshals
came up the block. They must have been close.
They were totally covered with crap. Their pants
were ripped. We had a box of flashlights. We
sat there with them and put batteries in a couple
cases of flashlights for them.
I'm trying to think if there's anything
else worth noting. I can't remember. We helped
them. We hung out. Then they came up with the
command post at West and Chambers near the
underpass. So we started heading back there.
When we got back there, we hooked up
V. MASSA 15
with -- they gave us an assignment to stretch a
line from the water -- there was a marine boat on
the water at Vesey Street. They wanted the line
stretched -- I think two or three companies --
they were looking for engine chauffeurs. I'm an
engine chauffeur. They were looking for engine
companies to help stretch lines to manifold them
to satellite off the boat close to the debris at
the intersection of West and Vesey.
We rode with them. We took a rig. We
drove down to the water and Vesey. There was
already a rig backed in that dead-end street to
the water, 3-something. Maybe 320-something . I
don't remember. We had a spare rig that was
like -- it was a spare rig or reserve rig. We
stretched three and a half from there up Vesey to
West, and we fed 33 Engine, I think. We supplied
it to them. From them they fed it manifold, and
they fed I think a satellite.
It was a mess. I remember thinking
this is ridiculous. It's taking us forever just
to stretch a line because everything was just
chaos. There's lines all over the place. Nobody
knew where this line ran, this and that.
V. MASSA 16
Everything was all over the place.
There were a couple officers that did a
good job keeping everybody together and saying
hey, just do this, get this done. Everybody had
their own ideas of what they should do, and
everybody was doing what they thought they should
do, and it was all different things. It was hard
to accomplish simple tasks.
Once we did that, there was a long
wait. We went in. We got that hooked up. We
helped them. We were going to stretch some hand
lines in, but they said to hang that. They kept
backing everybody up and then bringing them in.
Now at this point everybody was gathered on Vesey
by West and wanting to go to work. Everybody was
hanging out. This must have been probably almost
an hour after the second tower came down.
We were over there. We tried to do
what we could. Our officers tried to get us to
work. We hung around for a while. I think they
were more letting rescue do it and they were
letting whoever had their rigs who was on the
ends of any place supplying any kind of water.
They were more interested in trying to supply
V. MASSA 17
water, and there were some guys searching.
But they weren't letting guys too
close. At this point Seven World Trade Center
was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody
get too close. Everybody was expecting that to
come down .
We hung out for hours . We went into
the American Express building. We looked around
there. We searched around for a while, but you
could see guys were already in there. We pretty
much did that on our own because we were right
there and the door was there and we just walked
in .
I remember later on in the day it was
getting close that they were more concerned about
seven coming down. We had no idea what was going
on on the east side. We were all on our side.
On the west side it was pretty clear. The wind
was blowing from west to east, I believe.
I remember later on in the day as we
were waiting for seven to come down, they kept
backing us up Vesey, almost like a full block.
They were concerned about seven coming down, and
they kept changing us, establishing a collapse
V. MASSA 18
zone and backing us up.
At one point I remember the chiefs
gathered all the officers in the street. They
put all the engines on one side of the street and
the truck guys on the other side of the street,
and they gathered all the officers in the center
of the street to try to come up with some kind of
plan, try and get some semblance of organization.
They wanted everybody's riding lists. They
wanted everybody to be accounted for to make sure
that nobody was missing, just trying to get their
bearings .
I remember being concerned about 47
Truck that went with us . They were relocated
down to 6 Truck before we went down. So they
were down there a lot earlier. Maybe their guys
will tell you their story.
I remember trying to listen to the
radio, hearing for anything on 47 Truck. I
remember hearing the officers say something once,
and I remember hearing 47 was on B call on 47' s
roof, but the roof not answering. We were
concerned that some of them might be missing.
We had no idea what they were going
V. MASSA 19
through on the other side or wherever they were,
but we knew they were there because we heard on
the radio. We were sure that they were there
because they went back to 6 Truck, early.
After they got us in the street, I
remember Chief Salka from the 180 was one of the
guys that took charge. He kind of kept everybody
in line. Him and I think Visconti had a plan of
attack .
The whole time while we were waiting --
there were hours that went by. Seven came down
after 5 in the afternoon. I remember listening
to the rescues that were going on. They got 6
Truck out of the stairwell. I remember hearing
all that, what was going on, Three or four
different rope rescues going at the same time.
Different chiefs talking to different crews, guys
that were going in to try and get 6 Truck out.
Other than that, we were surprised that
there wasn't a lot more going on on the radio.
It was actually -- considering what was going on,
it was pretty quiet. Plus it was like -- it must
have been hours later when we realized both the
towers were completely gone. It was just like
V. MASSA 20
holy shit.
I remember somewhere during
the hours of waiting there was a proby from 18
Truck that hooked up with us because he knew one
of the probies that was with us. He didn't know
whether he could find his company, so our officer
told him just stay with us. So we latched onto
another guy we had extra guys with us. I don't
remember his name.
I know we were waiting in the street.
You had the engines on one side, the trucks on
the other, the officers were in the middle.
At that point I guess it was about 5 in
the afternoon or so. That's when seven came
down. Seven World Trade Center came down, and
that was like two blocks away. As soon as it
came down, everybody got up and tore ass west
down Vesey Street.
Everybody was trying to get into this
building. I remember there were 150 guys trying
to get through two revolving doors with full
gear. It was like (sound) . Everyone is
screaming. Guys were trying to smash the glass
with their halogens to get through and ended up
V. MASSA 21
freaking out. The stuff gave way and we all got
out. You can laugh it off, like Jesus Christ.
Everybody was shell-shocked.
That's when Salka came up and he said
all right, now that seven was down you can start
getting closer and down things. There was no
collapse threat anymore. Salka wanted three
engines and three trucks because he wanted to go
into the Verizon building, which is on the corner
of West and Vesey.
He wanted to search the Verizon
building to make sure that there was no fire in
there. He wasn't as concerned about people
because he figured everybody was out by now
because it was hours later. There wasn't much
fire in there, but there was some. We didn't
want to lose that building too. We're not going
to stay away from it and let it burn because
there wasn't much fire.
Everybody is jumping up. You had 300
guys that wanted to go to work, and he's looking
for three engines and three trucks to go to work.
Our boss got in there. He wanted companies that
all had masks, companies that had radios, because
V. MASSA 22
a lot of guys had radios because they came down
alone .
It turned out because we scavenged we
had our masks and we had radios that were
working. We still scavenged in those hours for
fresh batteries for the radios . I had that
search rope. He needed a search rope. I gave
Salka the search rope. He had gotten one.
So he ended up picking us to go. I'm
trying to remember the truck company we went
with. We went in with three chiefs. We paired
up into teams, each one with a chief. I can't
remember the truck company we went with. I want
to say 13 Truck, but I don't think so.
Q. That's okay.
A. So we went in. What he wanted to do is
we split up into three teams, and each team
searched ten floors. We brought floor ropes with
us in case we found fire. There was a rig right
in front of the building. We each grabbed a
length of hose and what we do to hook up, and we
went in.
We had to force the door to the
stairwell. We walked up -- I don't remember the
V. MASSA 23
chief's name we went with. We went up to the
tenth floor, and we searched from 10 to 20
looking for fire. We were looking for people
too, but we were more concerned with fire. We
had fire and there was damage, holes in the
walls, big holes in the walls. Actually we were
with 54 Truck. 54 Truck was there.
That was pretty much it. Then we came
downstairs. By the time we came out, it was
dark. We were shot. We were heading out. More
people were showing up. There were hundreds and
hundreds of guys there.
We came over to try and get another
assignment at the command post. We saw 47 Truck
there. And we picked up things that we were
missing. We went to the command post. We saw
Chief Didomenico to try and get another
assignment. He took one look at us and said,
"You guys been here since this morning?" We
said, "Yeah." He said, "You better get the hell
out of here." It was like 10:30 at night at this
point. He told us to get out of there.
So we took our stuff and walked back
down to the rig. We were trying to find our
V. MASSA 24
chauffeur. Actually I remember as we were
walking past 47 Truck's rig, there was a civilian
going through it. He was wearing one of our
guy's coats and one of our guy's helmets. I
recognized the helmet. We grabbed the guy, "What
the hell are you doing?" He said he was retired.
He wasn't retired. We grabbed the stuff and told
him to get the hell out of here.
We went back over and picked up our
chauffeur and came back, back to quarters. We
got back to quarters sometime shortly after 11.
That's it.
Q. That's pretty good. All right.
CHIEF KENAHAN: It's now 5:10 p.m.
This concludes this interview.
File No. 9110224
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER FRANK CAMPAGNA
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
F. CAMPAGNA 2
CHIEF MALKIN: Today is December 4th,
2001. The time is 1431 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Malkin of the Safety
Battalion. I'm conducting an interview with
Fireman Frank Campagna of Ladder 11, and
we're in the quarters of 28 Engine at this
time. This is the fireman's statement.
Q. Where did you respond from?
A. I responded from quarters, came up the
FDR, showed up to the scene. The fire was
blazing out. The first plane had hit. We pulled
up in front, and we headed inside toward the
lobby. On the way inside you saw the usual stuff
like everyone else saw, things falling and stuff
like that.
We got inside the lobby and we waited
to hear from a chief or whoever what's going to
go on, wait until we found out what's going on.
What wound up happening is they teamed us up with
4 Engine, I believe it was. What it was is they
combined us as one hose team pretty much. So
they dropped half of their rollups and we kept
half of ours, we kept one standpipe kit, and we
headed up together.
F. CAMPAGNA 3
As we were going up, they said on the
lower level the second plane hit the other
building. Me personally, I felt it on another
level up, so I think the timing was off between
everybody.
We just kept walking up. As far as we
knew, there were no planes or anything coming in.
There wasn't even a plane that hit that building.
We just knew there was a fire up there. Any
other explosions that we felt from inside were
maybe extra machinery or something like that.
Those were the words that we were getting.
So we just kept going up the stairwell.
We got up to about the 17th floor, and we felt
another pretty big explosion. At this time about
every two floors, every three floors you'd stop
into an office, get some water, take a breather.
Guys were pretty winded. They had equipment on
and carrying everything.
We're taking a breather, and I believe
that's when the other Trade Center went down and
everybody felt it and they didn't know exactly
what it was. Everyone headed towards the
stairwell, thinking it was a safer place to be.
F. CAMPAGNA 4
After that happened, the building was
still standing, everybody kept going up. So we
kept going up, still stopping about every two,
three floors. People still coming down. We were
just telling them to keep calm and walk on the
way down .
We got up to about the 28th, 30th
floor, and we were taking another break. There
was an office or we had a whole floor full of
people. A chief came down from a floor above
with another company and said everybody evacuate,
everybody out now. We had to switch staircases.
I believe the staircase we were in, there was no
way down it anymore on the lower level. There
was word that it had been taken out; we don't
know what from.
So we switched to a different
staircase. We headed down. We let the civilians
go first. We showed them towards that staircase
and started heading down, letting the civilians
go first, and we walked our way down. We were up
there with a couple of companies. I don't know
the exact numbers. I know 4 Engine was with us.
Everybody went down with us.
F. CAMPAGNA 5
We got down to the lobby, and there's a
lot of guys down there in the lobby itself along
with 4 Engine. Everyone is standing there,
waiting to hear what's going to happen next,
what's going on. Guys were just saying it's time
to go, this isn't safe to stay in here.
So I believe we headed out along the
wall of the Trade, and I believe 18 followed us
out. That was it. It came down on top of us.
That's all I remember of who followed us out or I
heard who followed us out. 4 Engine obviously
didn't make it out. They were with us the whole
time, so I'm assuming they were still in the
lobby at that time.
That's pretty much it from that point
on.
Q. What did you see when you left tower
one? Tower two had already collapsed.
A. I didn't see it. Tower two we didn't
even know went down. I had no clue it went down.
When we were up on the 30th floor, guys were
banging out the windows, saying, "Holy shit, this
looks like a war zone."
Guys were saying stay away from the
F. CAMPAGNA 6
windows, something might come in, something might
fall down and come in through the window. So I
never got to see it. What they were talking
about was the other Trade Center when it had gone
down. The whole scene outside looked terrible.
On our way out when we left first World
Trade, all we saw was -- it was like tunnel
vision. All you saw was what was right in front
of you. Things were still falling as we were
heading out. The streets were all dusty. I was
not really realizing that the other Trade Center
had collapsed, because it was towards our left, I
believe, which we were running towards the right.
We were standing along the line, and it's just
what's in front of me.
I wasn't really looking around to take
a look. There's still stuff falling on top of
us. So I still didn't know it went down. I
actually didn't know until the other one fell
down and I heard that the other one was gone
while we were in there.
Q. Question: When you exited the World
Trade Center, the north tower, you were going
where? North on West Street? Which way were you
F. CAMPAGNA 7
exiting the area? Running away from the
buildings, which street were you on and which way
were you going?
A. We were on West Side Highway and we
were headed up towards --
Q. North?
A. Yeah, north, toward Vesey. We were
right there. Our rig was parked on Vesey, so we
headed up that way. We were right under the
walkway just about, and that's when it started
coming, about there.
Q. Did you see the command post? Did you
see Chief Ganci? Do you know Chief Ganci?
A. No.
Q. Did you see the command post with the
command board?
A. I saw the command post. Actually I
don't know -- I just remember seeing like there
was a bunch of people over there past the walkway
towards the water. There was just a crowd of
people. I didn't know -- in that intersection
there, that's all I was looking at was in that
intersection there.
There was nobody in the intersection,
F. CAMPAGNA 8
nobody in the streets in general, everyone just
saying come on, keeping coming, keep coming.
That's when it went. I looked back. You see
three explosions and then the whole thing coming
down. I turned my head and everybody was
scattering. From there I don't know who was who.
I don't even know where my guys went. None of us
knew where each other were at at that point in
time.
Q. So you just kept running as it was
collapsing?
A. Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Each and
every person, pretty much.
Q. Then what happened? How did you
regroup? Where did you go after that? Did you
form up again or meet your guys again? What did
you do after that?
A. After everything happened, we got
engulfed by the whole cloud of smoke and
everything, and guys were sharing masks inside
that whole thing and trying to find our way out.
We couldn't see anything inside there. I was
right up on a cop van. My face was right against
a headlight, and I could barely see that, because
F. CAMPAGNA 9
the lights were on on it.
Once we got out of there, I heard Mike
Kehoe yelling, "28, 28." I found him, and from
there we went looking around and we found Roy.
He was up getting IV up somewhere. Then we
finally found our lieutenant and Jimmy Ippolito
who both of them I guess had ran towards the
water towards where all the guys were at the
command post area. I guess they ran towards that
way. We ran down the West Side Highway.
The other guy we didn't really know
where he was was our chauffeur. He was still out
by the truck, I guess, when everything was going
on. I guess when the second plane hit, from what
I understand, he got blown back a couple feet and
he got helped out and he got taken to a hospital.
So he's all right. That was the only one at that
point that we didn't know.
Then we finally all regrouped and
whatnot and found each other. Around that time
guys were coming in bus loads before we know it,
coming in to help search.
Q. Where did you park your rig? Where was
28 parked?
F. CAMPAGNA 10
A. He dropped us off right in front, right
in front of the tower we went in, which is --
Q. The north tower?
A. The north tower, the second one that
went down. He dropped us off right in front of
there, and from what I understand he parked it
right on Vesey Street. That's where we got off.
It was right in front.
Q. What floor did you reach when you were
climbing up? You said you were like on the 20th
floor and then you decided to come down?
A. 28th or 30th floor, the 30th, around
there, because we were going like every two
floors. So it was around there. I remember
seeing 28 on the wall, and then I think we went
up again. I think it was around the 30th floor,
we made it up there. From there that's when we
went down.
Then a chief came down and pretty much
said everybody evacuate, because nothing was
coming over the radios, as far as everybody was
still waiting. We were waiting with a bunch of
guys at that point in time.
I saw one of the guys I knew from the
F. CAMPAGNA 11
academy. He was in 4 Engine. Another one I knew
from academy, he was from 10-10. They were up
there with us also. I don't know if you got
details from someone else, but I'm pretty sure he
was from there.
Q. What floor did you say you were on when
you think the south tower fell down?
A. I would say about the 17th.
Q. You didn't have a radio that day. Did
you have a handy talky?
A. Me? No.
Q. You were with the officer when you were
climbing?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what was on the handy
talky when the south tower fell down? Was there
a lot of screaming? Do you remember radio
messages or anything like that?
A. No, nothing like that.
Q. There were a lot of guys in the lobby,
you said, when you came down to the lobby and
hooked up. You don't remember anybody specific,
companies or personal people, individual people?
A. No, like I said, it was real tunnel
F. CAMPAGNA 12
vision. I just wasn't being pretty much aware of
anything around, who was around me and whatnot.
Like I said, 4 and 18 are the only ones that
stuck out in my head.
CHIEF MALKIN: Okay. I'm thanking the
firefighter for the interview. The
interview is concluded. It's now 1443
hours. This concludes the interview and
also the chief's aide in the Safety
Battalion, Michael Bosco, sat in on this
interview.
File No. 9110225
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER BERTRAM SPRINGSTEAD
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
B. SPRINGSTEAD 2
CHIEF MALKIN: Today is December 4th,
2001. The time is now 1626 hours. I am
Battalion Chief Malkin of the Safety
Battalion of the New York City Fire
Department. I am conducting an interview
with fireman first grade Bertram
Springstead, Ladder Company 9. We're in the
quarters of Ladder 9, and this interview is
regarding the events of September 11th,
2001. Also present is fireman Michael Bosco
of the Safety Battalion.
Now, Fireman Springstead, I have asked
him to relate everything that he remembers
from the incident on September 11th.
Q. Okay, go ahead.
A. September 11th I remember walking into
the kitchen about 8:30 in the morning, sat down,
coffee, paper. A little while later, I guess it
was about a quarter to 9, somebody came in and
said they saw the plane coming over quarters and
then they said they saw it hit the Trade Center.
So we all ran to the corner of
Lafayette and Great Jones, and we could see the
big hole in the building where the plane had hit.
B. SPRINGSTEAD 3
So we all went back to quarters, started getting
dressed. We didn't get the call right away. 32
went on the first ticket. We were all sitting in
the house watching, bunkering up. Then it came
on the TV, and we started watching it on TV,
wondering why we didn't get the call yet and
complaining that we didn't get the call.
Q. Sure.
A. It was about 5 to 9, I guess, or a
couple minutes before 9, I guess, I remember
saying to the guys, "I wonder if they're holding
this ticket until after 9." Sure enough, the
ticket came in 090014.
Q. Get out of here.
A. And I made a copy of the ticket, and I
stuffed it in my pocket, because I was like,
"This is bullshit. I'm calling the union when I
get back." We were watching people jump on TV
from the building. I said how can they be
holding this ticket. That was what was going
through my mind the first time.
We get on the rig. We're going down.
The probie, John Tierney, he was off duty before
we got out. Something wasn't right that day. I
B. SPRINGSTEAD 4
knew something was wrong, and I turned to him and
said, "John, do me a favor, don't take this run
in. Just stay here. You're off duty, you're not
getting paid, just go home, man, just go home."
But who is not going to jump on the rig? So he
jumped on the rig and he was sitting on a lap.
We were driving down, sirens the whole
way down. We get there. We stepped off the rig,
and I look up and I noticed that both towers were
on fire now. We didn't realize at the time that
another plane had hit. We didn't see it and
couldn't hear it while responding. I just
figured the other tower was on fire from stuff
flying from the other building. So we really
didn't know there was a second plane.
We parked on I guess it was the
northeast corner of the Trade Center, which is
right at Vesey and Church, I guess. Vesey and
Church, Vesey and Church right there. We stepped
off the rig, and there were plane engine parts
and people yelling and screaming. We stepped off
and noticed the two towers on fire.
We started walking down Vesey towards
West Street. Our assignment was tower one, so we
B. SPRINGSTEAD 5
would go into the lobby. Just as we turned onto
West Street, we were coming towards the entrance
of the Trade Center and we saw a jumper coming
down. We were like, "Oh, man, look at this."
They were smoldering, on fire, smoking. So we
were like, "Oh, man." Just a tremendous thump.
The noise was unbelievable.
Now we're looking up as we're going in,
and we go into the lobby and there's everybody.
Von Essen's there. The Mayor's there.
Everybody's at this command post, everyone in
white hats. We were standing there at the
command post, waiting for our assignment.
The probie still didn't have a mask.
He had jumped on the rig, so he was on somebody's
lap on the way down there. So I walked over to
the command post and took one of the aide's mask
and gave it to him and said, "Put this on because
we were going up now." Ganci took us over to the
stairs and said, "Call us when you get there."
That's all they said.
Q. Ganci was with you in the lobby?
A. He showed us to the stairs. Ganci
showed us to the stairs to take. We started
B. SPRINGSTEAD 6
walking up. I was taking my time, pacing myself,
going nice and slow, taking it easy. Those guys
were a little quicker than I was, and they kind
of advanced a couple floors beyond me.
They were up a couple floors ahead of
me - - I don't know how many -- and Don Casey
waited for me I guess it was on like the 13th
floor -- I forget exactly what floor it was on --
so that I wouldn't be alone. I was taking my
time going up there. We were taking breaks here
and there. I forget what floors we took breaks
on.
There were a lot of maydays with chest
pains on the radios and stuff like that. I don't
remember who or what floor, but there were a lot
of maydays. EMS was going all over the place
with maydays with chest pains.
We got up, and then me and Don were
kind of pacing ourselves. We pretty much tried
to take a break on every floor that you had
access to, because you didn't have access on
every floor. So whatever floor you had access,
we would go in, take a quick breather and then
get going again.
B. SPRINGSTEAD 7
I guess it was about the 19th or 20th
floor when I said, "Don I've got to take a
break." I was really hot. I said, "Don, I've
got to take this coat off for a second, take a
breather." They had water, and people had broken
open a Poland Spring machine and there were
bottles of water, so we would take a break. I
took my stuff off, and I was pouring water all
over.
5 Engine was there on the floor too.
Derek Brogan from 5 Engine, he was miserable,
miserable: chest pains, nauseous, on his knees.
He looked terrible. So we were pouring the water
over him. Real bad.
Then Don Casey, who I was with, starts
staying his arm was tingling, he's getting
numbness in his arm, in his left arm. I was
like, "All right, sit down." EMS was there. Two
guys from EMS were there. One was working on
Derek, and the other guy started working on Casey
with the oxygen and stuff like that.
I remember somebody said, "You think
you're having a bad day? Take a look out this
window." We looked out the Trade Center window,
B. SPRINGSTEAD 8
and there was the Vista Hotel, I guess it was
there. I'm not really sure what building I was
looking at, but I'm pretty sure it was the roof
of the Vista. There had to be 30, 40 jumpers
sprayed out all over the roof. I went, "Oh,
Jesus, what the hell is going on here?"
As I was looking out the window, which
is a total of five seconds, another jumper comes
by, kind of like clipped the edge of the roof and
just vaporized. The guy just disappeared. There
was no longer a body, just a big cloud of red.
Q . Wow .
A. I was like, "I didn't need to see
that." A total of five seconds I was looking out
that window, total.
So I go back, and I was with Don and I
was saying, "Maybe we should take you down, Don.
Maybe we should start working down if you're
getting --" He said, "No, I'm all right now.
I'm all right."
The EMS guy was yelling at him. He
said, "You guys, I've probably seen this a
thousand times. You might be having a heart
attack." But Don didn't think so. He thought
B. SPRINGSTEAD 9
his suspender strap was too tight, which turned
out it was, because he was fine.
There was a time we were like, "Well, I
don't know, Case, maybe we should take you down.
Let's get out of here. How much farther? Are
you going to make it?"
Then 5 Engine was there, the whole 5
Engine was there. Derek Brogan was miserable.
He was terrible. He looked terrible. I was
nervous about him. He looked really bad. So I
turned to 5 Engine officer. They didn't want to
leave him, but they wanted to keep going. I
said, "Look, Lou, you want me to take down
Derek?" I said, "I'm going to take Don down. Do
you want me to take Derek down? I'm taking two,"
because 5 Engine didn't want to leave another guy
behind. He said, "Yeah, maybe that's a good
idea, if you're going down." I had a radio, Don
had a radio, and this way they didn't have to
lose another guy with a radio when it went up.
So maybe, I don't know, five seconds
later, that's when tower two must have started
coming down. The building started shaking, a
tremendous rumbling. Light bulbs were falling
B. SPRINGSTEAD 10
out. File cabinets were tipping over.
We were in that corner of tower one
that's kind of close to tower two where they kind
of like point at each other there. That's the
corner we were in. I don't know what the hell
was going on, but whatever it was, it was right
outside the window that we were standing like
five feet from.
Some guys were diving on the floor.
Some guys were -- I just took off for the other
side. I said whatever was going on was on that
side. I said I'm getting to the other side of
the building. I started running.
We got to that side of the building. I
didn't see Casey, but he told me he dove on the
floor first. Then when he saw me run by, he
said, "That looks like a good idea. Maybe I'll
go with Bert and get to the other side." Casey
got him to the stairwell. He said, "Let's get
the hell out of here." I said, "Hold on, hold
on, Case. I don't even know what that was.
Let's regroup here. First we've got to go back
and get our stuff. "
We had taken our coats off. We don't
B. SPRINGSTEAD 11
have any tools. We don't have our masks. I
said, "Let's go back, get our stuff." I said,
"First of all, Brogan is still back there. We're
responsible for him now." I said, "Let's go see
if we can find Derek."
We get back there. It was dark. Most
of the light bulbs had fallen off, so you really
couldn't see much. I guess it was from the dust
cloud outside there was no light coming in. We
didn't know at the time. We just thought it was
another plane or something, another explosion or
whatever. We really didn't know what it was.
We got our masks and our coats, grabbed
the halogen and started looking for Derek,
couldn't find him, searched all over. He didn't
have a radio. We couldn't call him. Then we got
the word on the radio to get out of the building.
I was like, "Case, I guess he's gone. There's
nobody on this floor." We searched the whole
floor. There's nobody there.
So we started going down. We made our
way to the stair. Then it was just a slow walk
down, as slow a 20 floors as you can walk. You
took a step, you took another step, took a step.
B. SPRINGSTEAD 12
You got to each landing, you opened the door,
"Anybody else here? Let's go. Everybody out."
You let a couple people in front of you, another
step.
We just happened to be on the staircase
with an FBI guy. He had an FBI jacket on. He
turns around to me and goes, "We've got to get
out of here." I said, "What are you talking
about? We're getting out. Let's go.
Everybody's walking out." He said, "No, you
don't understand. There's more planes coming."
I said, "What the hell are you talking about,
more planes?" He said, "There's two more planes
on the way for these buildings." "What do you
mean, two more planes?" I didn't even know there
was more than one plane at this point. We didn't
know there was a second plane.
So then we started walking out. It
didn't matter. You weren't going anywhere. It
was slow walking. We got to about the 5th or 6th
floor. It was getting a little smoky, dusty,
whatever. Don started to put his mask on. I
said, "Don, why don't you save it?" It wasn't
that bad yet. I said, "Why don't we get down and
B. SPRINGSTEAD 13
see if we need it to get out of here before we
waste it up here." So we just started covering
up, and we made it all the way down.
We came to the lobby, and the lobby was
a disaster. It never registered that the other
building had collapsed. We came outside, and we
walked the same way we came in. We went back to
the -- you didn't go through the doors. All the
glass was broken on the ground floor when we came
in the first time, I guess from the elevators
collapsing or I don't know. All the glass was
gone.
So we were walking through the plate
glass along the wall. We slowly walked our way
out towards the sidewalk, making sure that no
jumpers were landing on us. I don't know what it
was exactly, but I wound up seeing Lieutenant
Smith. We just happened to bump into him.
I radioed to him on the way down that
me and Case were in staircase B, I think it was,
and we were on our way down. He said, "Okay.
See you out front." I said, "Do we have
everybody?" I forget what he said. I don't
know. Everybody was with me on the stairs. I
B. SPRINGSTEAD 14
don't see everybody.
But there were people -- there were
guys all over the place. There were firemen
everywhere, wandering around. So we started
looking around to see if we could see the guys.
I said, "Lou, they've got to be right here. So
I'm going to go back inside and maybe they're in
the lobby." He said all right, he's going to
gather everybody up out here when I find our
three guys. I said, "We'll get together up the
street. We'll regroup and where are we going."
I still never realized the building had
collapsed. In fact, I had my camera in my
pocket, and I was taking pictures on the way out.
Casey is yelling at me, "Let's get the hell out
of here. What are you doing?"
Q. Did the pictures come out?
A. Yeah, they came out great.
Q. Have you got them here?
A. I have the negatives. Guys keep asking
for copies left and right.
Q. I bet.
A. In fact, I get about six, seven copies
made up at a time, and guys -- whatever it costs.
B. SPRINGSTEAD 15
It costs me about $5 to get them made.
So I started my way back in underneath
that foot bridge right on the corner of Vesey and
Church, the same way we walked in. There were a
couple rigs there. There was a guy with a
bullhorn, a chief. I thought he was a chief. He
had a white shirt on. I don't remember if he had
a helmet on. But he had a bullhorn, a guy with a
bullhorn.
He was yelling, "Clear the area. Clear
the area." I really wasn't listening to him. I
was kind of walking by. He stopped me. He
grabbed me. He said, "You've got to get out of
here." I said, "Chief, I'm missing three guys."
He said, "Everybody coming out I'm sending this
way. They're probably out already. Go up this
way. Everybody is going up this way." I said,
"Look, Chief, they might be right here." He
said, "Get the -- out of here now." He had me by
my shoulder and he kind of shoed me away.
All right. So now I'm doing the same
thing. I'm looking around. There's firemen all
over the place now. I'm looking at each guy and
I'm going over to guys. It's not really
B. SPRINGSTEAD 16
registering. The street is a disaster. There's
stuff all over the street.
I was just by the other side of that
foot bridge, I guess. You heard somebody, turned
around and looked up, and I saw a big section of
the facade coming down, straight down. I said,
"Holy shit," and I took off up West Street, north
on West Street, just ran as far as I could, which
wasn't too far before the dust cloud took you out
and stuff was hitting you and banging off your
mask and your helmet and, geez, what the fuck's
going on, you know?
Then the dust cloud started coming, and
I turned around and the cloud was coming and I
turned my mask on and put it on. Then it was
just dust and dark for it seemed like forever,
darker than any fire I had ever been in. There
was nowhere to go. You could see it swirling
around you. I actually had to push the face
piece onto my face to keep it out. It was
forcing its way inside.
Then it was just wandering in the dark
north on West Street, bumping into cars and
barricades and whatever else I bumped into. I
B. SPRINGSTEAD 17
finally started coming out of the dust and
finally started seeing a little light. I turned
around, and now I'm missing all seven guys, the
other seven guys that were with me. Now I don't
know where anybody is.
So I started looking for guys again.
The first guy I saw was the chauffeur, Warnock.
He was miserable. He didn't have a mask on, so
he must have dropped it and ran. I don't know
what happened. He didn't have his mask on, so he
was terrible. He couldn't see. He had stuff in
his eyes. He could barely breathe.
I just scooped him up by his arm and
dragged him over to an ambulance and was banging
on the back. They opened up. I actually had to
scoop stuff out of his mouth, it was so thick
with dust and stuff. I told him, "Mike, make
yourself throw up. Get rid of that stuff."
EMS was trying to hose him down and get
the stuff out of his eyes. I was holding him
down as they were squirting the stuff into his
eyes to clean his eyes. They were clearing his
eyes. It wasn't like dust; it was like rocks
were in his eyes. It was bad. He was in a bad
B. SPRINGSTEAD 18
way. They laid him down. EMS was there, so I
said, "Mike, I'll be back." I said, "Let me go
see if I can find anybody else."
The next guy that I saw was I think it
was Smith and Casey. Casey was hurting too. He
had his mask on the way out, but he said he lost
it to run. He said he figured you moved faster.
So he was hurting too. I dragged him over to
where Mike was. Lieutenant Smith seemed okay.
He is a pretty fast runner. I don't even know if
he got caught in the dust, because he ' s a
jackrabbit .
That was it. I didn't see Mike. Then
the other three guys -- Mike Maguire, I didn't
know where he was. Casey and Warnock were in the
ambulance. I kind of asked them not to go. I
said, "Why don't we stay together, guys. It's
chaos. Why don't we stay together. I don't even
know where they're taking us. Why don't we just
stay together . "
They weren't that bad; they were
just -- they were okay now they got their eyes
washed out. They didn't seem that bad. I said,
"Why don't we stay together. One of the guys
B. SPRINGSTEAD 19
said, "No, I just want to get away from this."
They were like, "Okay, go ahead."
So that was me, Smith and I don't
remember -- there was some probie there in an
orange hat, and he couldn't find his company, he
didn't know where everybody was, he didn't have a
radio. I said, "Why don't you stay with us and
listen to the radio." I don't even remember his
name or his company. He stayed with us the rest
of the day. He never hooked up with any of the
guys in his company. I don't even remember what
company he was. He stayed with us.
We walked around, and I started calling
the guys on the radio, you know, "9 OV to anybody
at 9 Truck." It was weird because there was no
radio traffic. There was nobody on the radio.
It's like I could clear as day call anybody that
was on it. Nobody was answering.
Then I started with 33 Engine. Nobody
was answering. I just kept wandering around.
Finally Mike Maguire, who had the can, he
answered me. He told me where he was. I forget
what street. West Street and North End walk,
something like that. So we had to walk a couple
B. SPRINGSTEAD 20
blocks to get to there.
We never found him. I didn't see him
again until nighttime. I don't know, it was like
10:00 at night the next time I finally saw Mike.
But I knew he was okay, though, so I really
wasn't worried. I was more worried about the
other three guys.
I kept wandering around. Finally
somebody said, "Well, everybody who's been coming
out, they've been sending them to a staging area
north on West Street. I said, "All right, let's
go up there. Maybe they're up there." He said
they were sending everybody north on West Street.
So we kept walking north. We never saw
anything. We hitched a ride to 8 Truck, and then
they said they would taking guys to 20 Truck,
anybody they found were going to 20 Truck. I
said, "All right, let's go to 20 Truck, see if
the guys are there."
We still assumed that those three guys
had gotten out. We had gotten out, so we were
like where the hell are they? They must have
gotten out. We went to 20, and they weren't
there. Then I told Lieutenant Smith, "Lou, I'm
B. SPRINGSTEAD 21
going to walk back to quarters. Maybe they'll
try and call quarters."
I got back to quarters, and they
weren't there. This was like 4 or 5:00 in the
afternoon now, after we had been wandering down
there for hours. Nothing. They never --
Q. Where did you last see those guys?
A. I saw them in the lobby going up in the
stairs, probably the third floor going up. They
were taking off. They were in much better shape
than I was. They were flying up the stairs. I'm
like I'm pacing myself. We've got 90 floors. I
said I'm not going -- I'd be dead by the 20th
floor if I ran up 20 floors. It was a nice easy
pace.
I never saw those guys for the rest of
the day. I was with Casey. I bumped into Smith
and Warnock. When I saw those guys outside, it
was right underneath that foot bridge. That's
where I saw those guys. Then I turned around and
went back in the lobby.
I saw Mike Maguire. I kind of just
waved to him that, hey, be careful of the
jumpers.
B. SPRINGSTEAD 22
We were out there. He walked out and
met up with those guys. Then everybody scattered
when it came down. Guys went off in all
different directions. Those guys were walking
north on West Street when I went back towards the
building to go back in to get the other three
guys.
That's the last time -- I never saw
Walz. I never saw Baptiste. I never saw
Tierney. I never saw those guys. I figured they
had to be in that lobby, though. I don't know,
they must have made a wrong turn in the lobby or
something or followed the wrong guy. I don't
know. I didn't really see them, so I don't know
what they did. I just figured they were in that
lobby and I was going to go get them.
That was it. I got back to quarters.
Answering the phone putting the family off then.
That was pretty much it.
Q. Those three guys are lost?
A. Those three guys are lost.
Q. They never came back?
A. No. I thought for most of the night
that we'd find them someplace, whether it was in
B. SPRINGSTEAD 23
a hospital. They didn't know where anybody was.
I just assumed they got out. I just assumed that
those three guys got out. I miss them.
Q. Sure.
A. That's basically it.
Q. I just want to ask you a couple
questions that I jotted down while you were
talking.
What position did you have? Do you
remember?
A. OV.
Q. You were the OV. Okay.
Did you get any sense that the
elevators were running at any time when you got
there or at any time was there any talk about --
A. The elevator doors were blown off.
Q. Blown off?
A. Yeah. You could see they were a
disaster .
Q. Was there evidence of fire or smoke in
that area? Did you get the sense that fire had
been in that shaft or was in that shaft, the
elevator shaft?
A. No, no, I never thought -- I just
B. SPRINGSTEAD 24
assumed that they must have plummeted from being
cut - -
Q. I see.
A. The airplane just -- that's probably
why the plate glass was blown off too. We didn't
walk through the doors; we walked through -- all
the glass in the lobby was out.
Q. Even when you got there?
A. Yeah. So we walked through the glass
to get into the building.
Q. Wow. Oh, yeah, I could see that, the
elevators coming down might do that.
How about the handy talky traffic? You
were on Channel 1 the whole time?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't switch over; right?
A. No. There was chaos, and then they
said -- I remember somebody saying tower two
switch to whatever number it was. I don't know
what they switched to. But I was in tower one.
Q. Handy talky Channel 1 that you were on,
was it chaos the whole time? There was a time
that you were making some calls to people?
A. There were so many maydays going on.
B. SPRINGSTEAD 25
Q. You did hear maydays, but what about
getting through?
A. Maydays were left and right for guys
with chest pains. There was a lot of guys with
chest pains. After tower two collapsed, we
didn't know it at the time but there was one
radio transmission that came through that said
the 65th floor just collapsed. But we didn't
know what that was or who gave it. I heard on
the radio 65th floor just collapsed. I don't
know who gave it or for what building. It had to
be our building, because we were on a different
radio channel. That was it.
Q. At any time did you hear any
announcements over like the PA system instructing
people what to do, like the fire wardens making
any announcement?
A. No.
Q. Did you get any sense? Do you have any
recollection?
A. No, I don't remember hearing any.
Q. No.
A. Everybody was calm walking down. There
was no problems. We were on the right. We were
B. SPRINGSTEAD 26
going up on the right; they were going down on
the right, patting us on the back, handing us
water, "go get them, guys, you're earning your
money today," all sorts of stuff like that.
Q. When you came downstairs, you used the
words "the lobby was a disaster." What did the
lobby look like?
A. Just like dusty and --
Q. Dusty --
A. The lobby was empty. I was going back
towards the command post. I figured that's where
everybody was going to be. The command post was
set up in like that northwest corner of the
building there. There was no chiefs in the
lobby. There was nothing there. I'm like now
where do we go.
So we just started filtering out
towards the street, because that's where
everybody -- there was kind of like a line on the
stairs. Thank God we went the right way. If you
went left, I don't think you were getting out of
there. If you made the right, that's the way we
went into the stairs, so that's the way I went
out. That was the way I was walking back to the
B. SPRINGSTEAD 27
rig, the same way I went in there. It was just a
right lucky pick of the two.
Q. That's pretty much it?
A. Yeah.
MR. MALKIN: I want to thank you for
your statement and cooperating. The time is
now 1655 hours, and this concludes the
interview.
File No. 9110226
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD SHEEHEY
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
E. SHEEHEY 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: Today is December 4th,
2001. The time is 3:23 p.m. This is
Battalion Chief Kenahan from Safety
Battalion from the New York City Fire
Department. I'm conducting an interview
with Edward Sheehey, fireman first grade of
Engine 91. There is no one else present.
Q. Okay. Start your --
A. We responded after the second tower was
hit by the aircraft, through voice alarm. I
guess it took us approximately, on the fifth
alarm, between five and ten minutes to get down
there.
We got off the rig on West Street and
Vesey, parked the rig. We noticed numerous
jumpers coming down. There were firemen across
the street that called us over to the command
post. We went to the command post. We were
standing fast at the command post with other
companies, waiting for an assignment.
We were there approximately maybe ten
minutes before we received an assignment to go
into the south tower subbasement. We were on our
way in with an engineer, and he told us that if
E. SHEEHEY c
there was smoke in the building that he wasn't
able to go. He had no mask, and he didn't have
all the keys to the doors.
So a battalion chief, which I do not
know who he is, stopped us and told us he was
going to get us more men, and we sent the
chauffeur back to the rig for tools, forcible
entry tools. Within one or two minutes standing
there waiting for him to come back, the south
tower started to collapse, and we --
Q. Where exactly were you when the south
tower collapsed?
A. We were proceeding across West Street.
We were probably maybe 25 yards from the command
post .
Q. South of the command post?
A. Straight across from it, going in
towards the south tower. We were probably just
at West Street, just at the street. Then the
south tower -- we heard an explosion, looked up,
and the building started to collapse.
We dropped all our tools and gear, and
we turned around. There was a parking garage to
the right of the command post, so we ran down
E. SHEEHEY 4
into the parking garage. After being in the
garage about five minutes, we got out through a
stairwell in the rear out into a rear courtyard.
At that time we started looking for
rest of the members of the company. We found one
other member, Joe Meola. We then proceeded to
look for the lieutenant and the two other
members. I guess we made our way around back to
the front after about five or ten minutes looking
for them. It seemed like five or ten minutes.
We found Tim Hoppey.
That's when the north tower started to
collapse. At that time we ran down Vesey Street
towards the water and then north through a
construction site and basically started looking
for the rest of the guys that we were with.
About an hour and a half later we found
our lieutenant, Lieutenant Casey. We just stood
fast with him for the rest of the day. About an
hour after that we found our chauffeur. We found
out he was in the hospital.
Q. Did you hear any emergency
transmissions on the handy talky? Did you have a
handy talky?
E. SHEEHEY 5
A. No, I didn't have a handy talky.
Q. Did you hear anything being next to
anybody?
A. I heard maydays. As we were at the
command post, we heard maydays. I couldn't make
out what they were for.
Q. Was this before the collapse or after?
A. Before the collapse. Then after the
collapse I heard -- we looked for someone with a
radio, and we found a captain from another engine
company. I couldn't tell you what company he was
from. He was looking for the rest of his men,
and he had a handy talky. He said if he heard
them calling for us he would let us know. I
heard a couple of maydays on his handy talky but
couldn't make out who was giving them or where
they were.
Q. Anything else you want to add?
A. No, nothing I can remember. That's
what we did pretty much. That was basically our
whole involvement in the collapse.
Q. Okay. Thanks for your help.
MR. KENAHAN: The time now is 3:28, and
this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110227
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER KEITH FACCILONGA
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
K. FACCILONGA 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: 5:38 and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety
Battalion of the New York City Fire
Department. I'm conducting an interview
with Keith Faccilonga, firefighter first
grade from Engine 64.
Q. Go ahead and tell us what you remember
from September 11th.
A. I saw the second plane hit the second
tower on TV. I tried calling my battalion -- I
tried calling my company -- (inaudible) after the
second plane hit the towers, I got in my car. I
called the company and then I called my battalion
and I called my division, and there was no
answers.
I had my firefighting gear at home with
me and started getting the gear together,
figuring I was going to come into work. After
getting all the gear together, I made the phone
calls again. Still no answer at all three
places, including 47 Truck, who has their own
department phone.
I got in the car and drove down,
in live nx. I figured I was close enough
K. FACCILONGA 3
to get down there, report in to a chief and do
something. I drove down on the FDR Drive. I was
about halfway down -- I couldn't tell you where,
probably in the mid 90s when I saw the first
tower go down. I saw that from the FDR Drive.
I had my helmet in the window, and the
police kept waving me through. I got down there
pretty quick; I would say less than 15 minutes
door to door. I parked my car. I pulled --
actually on the FDR Drive right around the
Brooklyn Bridge, there was, I would say,
thousands and thousands of civilians that were
walking up in a panic, up the FDR Drive.
The smoke at that point was so thick
that I couldn't even see, so I had to back up,
make a U turn on the FDR Drive and get off, I
guess underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. Somehow I
made my way over to Park Row, took one look,
parked on Fulton Street right next to the
St. Paul cemetary.
I got out of my car. I got my
firefighting gear on, my bunker gear, helmet and
everything, no mask. I walked about half a block
down Church Street and made a left. In front of
K. FACCILONGA 4
me was Five World Trade Center with fire showing
out of just about every single window of Five
World Trade. The building was fully involved,
the whole entire building.
I made a left on Church Street, and I
continued walking and that's where parts of the
first building were all over Church Street and
all in between Four World Trade and Five World
Trade it was all parts of, I guess Two World
Trade Center was the first one to collapse.
I made my way to the corner of Liberty
and Trinity, and I found a bunch of firemen that
had come in the same as I did, on their own, on
their day off and were in the same situation. We
were going through rigs looking for Scott masks.
That was the only thing nobody had and the one
thing that everybody needed.
220 Engine was parked, it looked like I
think on the corner of Trinity and Liberty, and
the truck was there and he was telling me he lost
his whole company in the first collapse. So a
bunch of us got together with a lieutenant
from -- I don't even know what company. I don't
remember his name anymore. We told him you're in
K. FACCILONGA 5
charge and he was going to lead us in and try to
find the guys that the truck from 220 was telling
us were missing.
We headed down Liberty Street towards
the quarters of 10 and 10, and we made it just
about that far. I would say somewhere across
from 10 and 10 right in the plaza. We were
making our way across the rubble, and it was real
slow going.
We were crawling across the rubble,
trying to find -- at this point I wasn't sure
which building had collapsed. I know the area a
little bit. We were trying to get towards Two
World Trade Center, which was the building that
went down already. We didn't know that. So
we're trying to get in there, thinking that's
where the guys are. We're thinking -- I'm not
sure -- we figured we could find the guys.
So we're walking over there, we heard a
big roar. Nobody really knew what the roar was
until the chauffeur from 220 said, "Oh, my God,
not again." We turned around and started running
directly up Liberty Street away from the Trade
Center, running east on Liberty. We crossed
K. FACCILONGA 6
Trinity. On the way a couple of guys bailed out
and went into some of the buildings. Some guys
hid in Burger King. Myself, I kept running. I
tripped a couple of times. I got pelted and half
buried along the way.
I got over to the corner of Broadway
and Liberty, and there was a truck company parked
on that corner. We hid behind the truck, and all
the stuff came flying by. A couple of guys got
hit by stuff and hurt by stuff. Even guys that
were hiding behind the rig were getting hurt. I
noticed some windows were broken.
At that point I couldn't breathe
anymore. But there was an officer. I think he
was from... I would have to say 20 Truck who
shared a mask with me. I never found out really
who it was, but I think it was a lieutenant from
20. He shared a mask with me.
After a good couple of minutes of
pitch-black total darkness, it started to clear
up a little bit and I could almost breathe again
and maybe you could see your hand in front of
your face. I decided to then go back, because on
my way running away from the building I knew I
K. FACCILONGA 7
left guys behind that I really wasn't sure if
they made it or not.
I made it back down there toward 10-10
where I lost guys. The rubble was so deep that
there was no way we were going to dig something
up. I mean, everybody knows it was real deep
rubble, and we heard banging on the doors of
Burger King. So we went over to Burger King.
There were a couple guys in there. They thought
they were buried alive because the dust and dirt
were so thick on the windows. They couldn't see
anything. So we pulled the doors open, and there
were maybe, I would say around five, six, seven
guys, maybe, came out of there, and they were
surprised they weren't buried in a couple of feet
worth of dirt. It was only thick on the windows.
It made them think they were buried alive in
there.
We all got together again and tried to
make another trip to get in there. As we entered
the plaza again the second time. Now, stuff that
had fallen I guess whatever was... there big, hard
pieces of, I don't know, big pieces that had been
standing for weeks. Pieces were falling off
K. FACCILONGA 8
there and landing and we were kind of worried
about some landing on us.
We couldn't pass there on Liberty, so
we made our way south. I'm not sure if we went
up Albany or Carlisle. I'm not sure what street
it was. We went around to the west side, and
along the way different guys were trying to do
different things.
We hooked up with a couple of different
chiefs, a couple of different lieutenants and
captains, and different guys would attach
themselves to those bosses and try to do
something with them. Because the wind was
blowing from the west, I thought the best bet was
to go to the West Side Highway and try to make an
attack from that side.
So me and a couple of guys from -- I
don't remember what squad, but one of the squads,
we hooked up together and we found an officer.
We made our way to the West Side Highway, and we
tried to make a push into the rubble. Actually
while we were doing it, there were some fires
that they were putting out. I took some hose
line straps. We helped stretch some hose lines,
K. FACCILONGA 9
helped carry some pieces to the manifolds, some
gates, stuff like that. We were carrying stuff
along the way.
What else? At that point there were
civilians up in one of the buildings. I couldn't
tell you which building it was at the time. He
was up in one of the buildings that was damaged
but not knocked down. He was waving to us. We
kept saying, "What the hell does that guy want?"
It looked like he wanted to be saved originally,
but then we realized he was pointing and he saw
something that we couldn't see.
So we started walking. He was
directing us towards the south pedestrian bridge.
As we got closer to the pedestrian bridge, I saw
something shiny so I called some guys over, and
we started making our way towards where the
pedestrian bridge came to the ground on the east
side of the West Side Highway.
Right where the pedestrian bridge met
the ground, I noticed a bunker coat. So I called
everybody over, and we started digging frantic.
Then we realized we found somebody for sure. We
started finding that it was his whole entire
K. FACCILONGA 10
bunker coat and his hand was still in the bunker
coat .
We were digging, and there was no
response from whoever was buried. We got him
buried out as much as we could, but there were
three motorcycles that were pinned on him. It
looked like a river of debris had come in. He
had hid under the pedestrian bridge at the point
by the ground where it meets the ground. He hid
there I guess when the building collapsed. I'm
not sure which one. At this point we didn't know
who it was. Now I do know it was a chauffeur
from 65 Engine, and we didn't know until we got
him out of there, and I'll continue telling you
how we got him out .
So he hid under the bridge where the
forty-five meets the ground, and he got dirt from
both sides of the bridge. Stuff just came
running like a river and just buried him. There
were three motorcycles that had toppled over, and
they were pretty much pinning him to the ground
even after we dug him out.
So myself and one other guy got as
close as we could to the chauffeur. We grabbed a
K. FACCILONGA 11
hold of the motorcycles. He finally came to and
he finally was talking to us. He told us he was
the chauffeur from 65. He didn't know how long
he was out. He was unconscious. He doesn't
remember anything other than running and hiding
under there and then waking up. I think he was
out for at least an hour or two by the time we
made our way to him. It might have been more.
I'm not sure.
I was the closest one to him and I told
him we were going to try to get him out of there.
We picked up the motorcycles as much as we could,
but it still wasn't enough. We got some more
guys over.
There was some fire in the rubble pile
that was getting pretty intense, and the heat was
a lot for us. So they stretched more line to put
out the fire while we tried to get him out. We
got a back board in there, and somebody counted
to three. On the count of three, about three or
four of us picked up the motorcycle as high was
we could. While another two, three guys pulled
him out of the pile. He was still pinned. I
think his leg was pinned in the pile.
K. FACCILONGA 12
So then I crawled underneath and tried
to find out where he was pinned, his leg was
stuck at. Probably his bunker gear was stuck
under the motorcycles. So then we kind of
finagled his legs. He was really tough. It was
pinned pretty bad. The only thing we could think
of was to pull him out. We got him free of what
he was pinned under. We got a whole bunch more
guys, maybe about five or six guys, to try and
pick the motorcycles up on the count of three. I
counted to three this time, and I told the
chauffeur that we were going to pull him out on
three. He was counting down and he was still
pinned. I couldn't see where he was pinned. So
we said we were going to do it and if it was too
much, he was supposed to scream and let us know.
On the count of three we picked up the bikes, and
the guys pulled him out. They threw him on the
board, and they got him out.
Let's see. After that I took a break
for a couple of minutes. I got some water. I
went and scavenged some equipment off of some
rigs. I got a halogen, and I found a Scott pack
off one of the rescue rigs that was parked right
K. FACCILONGA 13
there, very close to the pedestrian bridge where
Liberty meets the West Side Highway.
I got one of the Scott packs, and I put
that on. Pretty much for the next couple hours
we were inside the rubble pile, mostly from the
west side. Since, like I said before, the wind
was blowing towards the east, and it was a lot
clearer coming in from the West Side Highway
going toward Battery Park.
I concentrated my efforts towards One
World Trade Center and Two World Trade Center.
On and off during the day I hooked up with
numerous firefighters and officers from
lieutenants all the way up to battalion chiefs.
We would hook up with teams and work as much as
we could until somebody needed a blow and then
they'd go take their own break and come back
whenever they were ready and then hook up with
another group or the same group. It pretty much
went on like that until around 5:00. Let's see,
it was around 3:00 I decided to take a break, and
I made my way back towards -- I headed towards
the command post set up on Broadway somewhere
near Park Row. So I was pretty much spent at
K. FACCILONGA 14
that point.
So I made my way over to Park Row where
there was a command center where there were
companies coming in. It was City Hall Park where
1 guess it was kind of a meeting point where
people were coming in. I saw people coming in
from "the Rock" I guess they sent their chauffeur
school, that type of thing. They were all
showing up there.
Checking in and I saw 47 Truck there,
which is the truck that's in with the engine I'm
assigned to. So I went over there and I reported
to that officer who was Lieutenant Lowney. So I
reported to him. I told him that I was going to
be attached to him for the day. He's just about
to sign in, I guess, and he was going to give my
name. So I figured I would stay with them for
the rest of the day. That was somewhere between
2 or 3:00.
At that point some fireman and some
police were scavenging stuff from a hardware
store, from a pharmacy for drops. My eyes were
shot. I couldn't see anymore. We were putting
drops in our eyes. We got some tools.
K. FACCILONGA 15
We finally got an assignment. We got
on the rig maybe around 3:00 and drove around to
see what was going on over by Six World Trade and
make our way towards the rubble from that end.
We were doing that for about two hours. Pretty
much we couldn't get past the rig. So we carried
as much food as we could. We made our way to the
pile again. We were doing searches. Not much
found. It was rough going.
At that point I was having trouble
breathing. I couldn't even walk 20 or 30 yards
without help. So they put me in an ambulance,
gave me oxygen and they were talking about
intubating me and they sent me off to
St. Claire's Hospital. I stayed there pretty
much through the night.
I got out of the hospital. That night
I stayed at a friend's house in Manhattan. I
came back down around 9:00 in the morning to get
my car. My car was on Fulton Street. I got my
car and went back up to the Bronx. I was
supposed to be working that day and pretty much
the rest was all responding with 64 Engine after
that. You know after the first day.
K. FACCILONGA 16
So I guess pretty much that's my story.
That's about it.
Q. Okay. Thanks a lot.
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 6:05
p.m. This concludes this interview.
File No. 9110228
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DAVID MORIARTY
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
D. MORIARTY 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: Today is December 4th,
2001. The time is 5:17 p.m., and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety
Battalion of the Fire Department of the City
of New York. I'm conducting an interview
with David Moriarty, firefighter first grade
from Engine 64.
Q. Please tell us the events of September
11th as you remember them.
A. On the morning of September 11th, I was
working a mutual with Kevin Hansen. I was
working a day tour here at 64 Engine. I was just
finishing up getting shaved when we received from
the news that a plane had struck the World Trade
Center. I was looking at the television when we
actually saw the second plane strike the World
Trade Center while we were still in quarters.
Sometime after that we received a
ticket to respond as an additional unit on a
fifth alarm to the quarters of 35 Engine in
Harlem, and we got on the rig and headed down to
Harlem. While we were on the Bruckner Expressway
heading down, you could see smoke rising from the
area of southern Manhattan in the vicinity of the
D. MORIARTY 3
World Trade Center.
We got down to Harlem, and Lieutenant
Brendan Whelan was working in 35 that day. He
got promoted out of Ladder 47 here. They were in
the process of gathering extra tools and stuff
for their apparatus, and he had us stage our
apparatus around the corner facing I guess east.
We were there for a short period of
time, and other companies came in. I believe 94
Engine responded in, maybe 50 Engine was there
and a couple of additional engines. I don't
remember exactly who.
We were in quarters, like I said, not
that long and the voice alarm went off, and the
person on the voice alarm asked Brendan to read
out a roll call of all of the units which were
currently at quarters there. Brendan did that,
and he had to repeat it a couple of times. You
could tell the guy on the voice alarm was
probably writing it down.
Shortly after Brendan read it out to
him, he said -- the guy on the voice alarm, the
dispatcher, said respond forthwith to West and
Vesey Street to the staging area.
D. MORIARTY 4
So we got on the apparatus, and somehow
we wound up pretty much like in the lead heading
south through Manhattan. In the area of 81st and
Central Park West -- I don't know if it was the
traffic conditions or what, but we were kind of
delayed right there.
I told the chauffeur that I knew of an
entrance to the West Side Highway at 79th. So
what we had to do was we went one block west to
Columbus, went south to 79th, made a right all
the way across and got on the drive there at 79th
and West Side Highway and proceeded south.
It was while we were in transit there
that the radio traffic picked up on the citywide,
and somebody put over that there was a collapse
at the World Trade Center. The thing was, they
never went into the extent of the collapse. We
didn't realize that the entire south tower had
collapsed while we were en route.
That transmission was somewhat garbled,
and immediately after that we heard a member over
the citywide frequency screaming a mayday. You
could tell by his voice that he was pretty bad.
He was in bad shape. He said he was trapped by
D. MORIARTY 5
debris, he was finding it difficult to breathe
and "Somebody come and get me." The dispatcher
got right back on and tried to calm him down and
assure him that they had units moving towards his
location.
Then pretty soon after that we arrived
on West Street north of West and Vesey, several
blocks north of the walk bridge that's at a
college there or something. That's where our
chauffeur found parking.
We got off the rig and we grabbed our
rollups. We started walking south on West.
Vinnie Massa, who had the control position, told
us hold on a second. He wanted to just remove
the basic items he'd need for a standpipe
operation from the standpipe kit so he wouldn't
be lugging the entire kit with him.
At this time there was units all over
the place on West, guys walking south and throngs
of civilians walking north. I mean, hundreds and
hundreds of people were walking north on West.
Then we started sizing it up as we were
walking. It was pretty bad. I mean, the north
tower was burning pretty good. It was ripping on
D. MORIARTY 6
the upper floors. There was all sorts of debris
in the air. We could see there was a dust in the
air that we didn't really understand what it was.
We thought it was smoke and whatnot. People were
still streaming north as we were headed south.
I started watching the debris, trying
to see the other tower. The debris that was in
the air and stuff, I was watching that, trying to
see around the north tower to see the south
tower, how bad did it look.
As I was looking through the debris was
when I first started seeing people jumping out of
the north tower. I had thought at first -- I was
walking alongside my probie, Billy Horel, and we
were both kind of looking up at the debris. It
was like, "Did you see that?" He said, "Yeah."
I said, "Those are people jumping out of the
building." There were enough of them that jumped
while we were walking.
As we got closer, you could see debris,
but there was a throng of firefighters and people
still between us and Vesey. That's when I
started noticing equipment on the roadway and
masks and shit like that.
D. MORIARTY 7
I had been looking up again, and
suddenly somebody to the front of us -- I don't
know if it was a civilian or firefighter or cop
or what -- said, "She's coming down." We were
within a half a block of the north tower.
It was my intention -- I was probably
the senior guy on the back step that day -- that
we report in to some command center down there.
Our officer would report in and we would probably
be going into the north tower or somewhere with
an assignment for a high rise job.
But that shout went up, and the crowd
in front of us suddenly surged towards us.
Everybody turned and started coming back north.
I looked up, and it appeared as if the north
tower -- it almost appeared to be liquefied. The
very top of it began to cascade out and down,
almost in a rolling motion.
As I watched it, the street started to
fill with this tremendous sound of just noise.
It reminded me of a jet aircraft engine when a
jet takes off. It was that loud. The debris
started coming out onto West and down.
We turned. I yelled something, maybe
D. MORIARTY 8
"Come on 64," or something. I grabbed my probie
by his harness, and I took one last look. I
could see now that the dust cloud was coming up
at us pretty fast. We turned around and we
started heading back north. We weren't running
at a flat-out run, but we were walking very
briskly.
I took a look over my shoulder. I
realized we weren't going to outrun this thing.
Still holding onto Billy, I said, "Come here."
There was an EMS ambulance parked facing north in
the southbound lanes. I said, "We've got to get
down here." I got down in front of the bumper
with Billy. I told him, "Mask up, mask up."
I looked, and I didn't know what was in
this debris. I said to myself if there's any
heavy stuff in this debris, we might not be in
the best of spots, but at least we had some
cover. Before I could get my mouthpiece, my face
mask on, it was that quick. That cloud of stuff
was up, on us, and over us.
I didn't know exactly where the other
members of the company were, but I knew Billy was
with me. He got his mask on. I cleaned mine out
D. MORIARTY 9
a little bit. It was very difficult to breathe.
Everything became kind of encapsulated. You
couldn't hear people yelling. Things weren't as
loud as they would normally be on the street
because of this dust that was all around us.
What happened then was the EMS
ambulance was running. It was on. The engine
was on. It started whining terribly bad. I
realized it was sucking all the dust. I thought
maybe we're going to have a car fire here. I
told Billy, "Billy, we're going to stand up and
walk north together out of this thing."
Basically that's what we did.
There were other people. We did bump
into people that were standing. We didn't
encounter anybody laid out or anything like that
along our path north until we got out of that
cloud .
When we got out of that cloud, we
regrouped. It was a matter of minutes before all
of the members were accounted for, we had
everybody, and we turned around and headed back
south now.
It was at that point as we closed in on
D. MORIARTY 10
where the north tower had been that I really
realized the extent of what had happened. There
was a tremendous amount of equipment strewn
across West Street, I mean partner saws and
masks. I saw a case for a heat-seeking camera.
I was clued in on that.
We passed a side street, and there was
an engine. I think it was 16; I'm not sure. It
was hooked up to a hydrant. There was debris
burning around it, and it was a matter of I did a
quick check, a cursory check, for the chauffeur
to see if he could possibly be in among this
stuff here.
It was on a side street away from like
the heavy debris. There was all this stuff, and
there were small pockets of fire burning around
the apparatus. It was like is he around? We
looked under the rig. We checked the interior of
the rig. There was nobody by that rig, so we
moved on. We moved south back towards the Trade
Center .
We got to the corner of West and Vesey,
and it was just very chaotic at that point.
There was a lot of firemen there, guys looking
D. MORIARTY 11
for stuff to do, doing cursory examinations of
the pile and stuff.
Shortly -- I don't know how long. You
know, time kind of speeded up and slowed down
depending on where you were. What we wound up
doing is we assisted members of 54 Engine. They
had been ordered to draft water from a marine
unit in the river.
We assisted them in positioning the
rig. We got a manifold, and we had I think four
or six lines. Like they were eventually hooked
up to this manifold in the area of West and
Vesey. Those lines were operating. We didn't
operate off of it, but other companies had them
charged .
There were guys that had put up
portable ladders towards part of the World Trade
Center there and were getting up onto I guess it
was a mezzanine level and doing a search there
real quick.
But the command at that point wasn't
really organized at first. Then I remember
seeing like a few different chiefs at the corner
throughout the day. They became very concerned
D. MORIARTY 12
about the condition of number Seven World Trade
and where we were in vicinity to that. They kept
announcing the collapse and who's moving, and we
got pushed further and further west.
We took a blow in the vicinity of the
American Express building. I heard that a police
officer, the body of a police officer, had been
recovered right where we were standing when we
first got there to the corner. Guys were just
making small examinations of the pile that was
around us. But they weren't really getting guys
get too deep into it because of the possible
pending collapse of Seven World Trade.
We were staged there a good part of the
afternoon until seven finally did collapse. It
was shortly after the collapse of seven that --
Chief Fellini, I guess was the commander at West
and Vesey. I know Chief Salka was at West and
Vesey and there was another chief with them.
They wanted to get a primary of the
Verizon building. They were asking for three
engines and three trucks. That's all they wanted
to commit to the buildings to do a cursory
examination for possible victims and stability
D. MORIARTY 13
and building damage. 64 Engine was chosen to do
part of that search.
We wound up entering the building.
Three engines, three trucks teamed up, one
engine, one truck, per ten floors. It was 6 or 9
Truck that we wound up with, and we did floors 10
through 20. We did have structural damage to the
building, especially to the east side, and small
pockets of fire set back there, but no victims
within the building.
We came out, and we took a blow on West
Street, reported back to the command center.
Basically we were told that it was time for us to
leave. We wanted to stay. The chief that was on
duty then, he asked us what tour we were working
and so on. We told him we were there from the
day tour. The chief said, "I've got a thousand
guys here to help. It's time for you to guys to
take up and go home," which we eventually did.
That's it.
Q. Very good. Thanks for your help.
A. Okay.
CHIEF KENAHAN: This concludes the
interview.
File No. 9110229
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER TIMOTHY HOPPEY
Interview Date: December 4, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
T. HOPPEY 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: It's December 4th,
2001. The time is 3:39 p.m. This is
Battalion Chief Kenahan from the Safety
Battalion of the New York City Fire
Department. I'm conducting an interview
with Timothy Hoppey, firefighter first
grade, assigned to Engine 91. We're at the
quarters of Engine 91 conducting this
interview.
Q. Go ahead with any --
A. We cut through Central Park to get down
there. Then we got over to the West Side
Highway. The cops pretty much had it all cleared
out for us, so we cruised right down to pretty
near the World Trade Center. I believe we parked
on West Street.
We got off the rig. It was myself, Ed
Sheehy and Maureen Schulman on the back step. We
took our rollups and started walking down West
Street toward the command center that we were to
report to, walked about 50 yards or so, and
Maureen was actually carrying the standpipe kit
and rollups. I went back and grabbed the
standpipe kit from her to speed things up a bit.
T. HOPPEY 3
We got down to the command post. As
soon as we arrived at the command post, I noticed
the jumpers were coming down there. I believe
there were a lot more landing on top of the
hotel, but some were hitting out in the street.
There were quite a few firefighters
already assembled there. The chief of the
command center told us to step back off of West
Street so that we wouldn't actually see the
impact of the jumpers. There was a parking
garage there with a ramp. So by going down the
ramp a little bit, you still saw and heard the
jumpers, but you didn't actually see them hitting
on the street. So that's pretty much where
everyone was.
We took our masks off and dropped the
rollups and stuff because we were assuming that
we might be there a while waiting for our
assignment and seeing how most of the other
companies had done that also.
As far as the companies assembled
there, I really only saw 34 Engine. I don't
know. A lot of guys had their helmets off too
and their gear stacked in specific areas.
T. HOPPEY 4
While we were there, I went back into
the parking garage, and one of the guys in the
glass booth back there, I asked him where a
faucet was. So came out and turned on a faucet
for us so we had some water.
We were just hanging out there, waiting
to be called, and eventually Lieutenant James
Casey came back, told us to get our gear on, that
we were going to head in.
So we went up to West Street. We were
right by the command center at that point. We
were kind of on the curb to cross West Street.
Actually we were told we were going to go to the
six sublevel. I'm not sure of what tower.
We were going to go in with an engineer
who -- I guess they were having standpipe
problems up there. We were going to isolate a
standpipe or something. Not that we knew how to
do it, but this engineer was going to tell us
what valves to turn or whatever. As I said, I'm
not even sure what tower we were supposed to go
into.
We walked out into West Street maybe
ten yards or so, and the chief called us back.
T. HOPPEY 5
I'm not sure what chief this was. I know Peter
Ganci was at this command center, but I'm not
sure what chief this actually was.
The chief wanted to get a truck company
to go in with us. He was figuring we would
probably have to force doors getting down to
these sublevels. At that point Lieutenant Casey
had sent our chauffeur, Steve Connor, and Brian
Russo, who actually had just gotten off the night
tour but had ridden down with the rack unit, I
believe. He sent them back to 91 's rig to get
forcible entry tools, rabbit tools or something
like that.
In the interim while we were standing
there on the curb at West Street, probably three
minutes or so after he had told us to go in,
that's when we heard the rumble. I looked up,
and it was just a black cloud directly overhead.
At that point I was thinking it was a
secondary explosion. It looked to me like it was
much lower than where the planes had gone in.
That was probably just a delay in looking up.
I turned around and looked to see what
everyone else was doing, and everyone was running
T. HOPPEY 6
right down that ramp into the parking garage. So
I just dropped the rollup and standpipe kit right
there and took off running and made it into the
parking garage.
As I was running down the ramp, there
was a pillar on the left. I jumped behind it. I
was going to throw my mask on, because I was
assuming at the time that -- thinking that the
World Trade Center -- I thought the top half of
the building was falling off, and I was thinking
of it falling outward, not really imploding upon
itself like it did. So if it was falling our
way, we might get buried alive or trapped down in
that parking garage.
I was going to throw my mask on, but as
soon as I jumped behind the pillar, there was
just a black cloud rolling probably five or ten
yards away from me, so I just kept running. I
didn't know if it was the building or if it was
just debris. I had no idea what was in the
cloud .
By the time I got to the rear of the
parking garage -- it stayed pretty clear back
there. It wasn't too bad. There was a stairway
T. HOPPEY 7
up. There were a ton of guys on the stairwell.
I know there was a delay in getting out the door.
Whether they got the key or forced the door, I'm
not really sure. I stayed down at the bottom
there. I had my flashlight on directing people
in there.
Once the door was forced or opened or
whatever they did, everyone headed up and out the
back of the parking garage. I went up there. We
moved either a bicycle rack or some type of
barrier to hold the door open up top.
While I was standing there, some
captain -- I don't know what company --he saw I
had an orange flashlight on my jacket and he
said, "Let me have that flashlight. I'm going to
go down and search the parking garage." So I
said, "All right." So I gave him the flashlight.
I said, "I'm going to go down with you."
So we put on our masks and went down
into the parking garage. He set up a search
rope. The visibility was actually fairly good
down there. You could see all the shapes of
people. It seemed like everyone who had gotten
in the parking garage was fine.
T. HOPPEY 8
I walked back out to where the ramp met
the air, but you really couldn't see too much at
that point. You wouldn't see anyone walking
around out there. I didn't really see much of
anything out there at that point.
I went back out through the garage,
back out into like a little park behind the
garage. Walking around there, I met up with two
guys from my company, Ed Sheehy and Joe Meola,
who also had been relieved that morning but had
come down.
We just started looking for our
lieutenant and the rest of our company at that
point. We walked through the park I believe to
Vesey Street, and we were going to loop around to
come back down into the Trade Center to see if
our lieutenant and other members were down there.
I would assume we were on Vesey Street
or West Street. I'm not even exactly sure. But
a cop started screaming, "The north tower is
leaning." We again started running. That came
down a couple minutes after that. As I said, I
think we were on Vesey Street at that point, but
I'm not really sure.
T. HOPPEY 9
After that it was kind of pandemonium.
The U.S. marshals were saying a third plane was
coming in. They said there were bombs in all the
buildings around there. No one really knew where
to assemble. Every time you tried to set up a
spot, you were being told to keep moving further
north. Eventually we ended up by Stuyvesant High
School. That was pretty much it.
Q. Do you have anything else?
A. No, I don't.
CHIEF KENAHAN: It's now 3:48. This
interview is concluded. Thank you.
File No. 9110230
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FATHER JOHN DELENDICK
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
J. DELENDICK '<
MR. TAMBASCO: Today is December 6th.
My name is Mike Tambasco with the World
Trade Center Task Force. We're on the
fourth floor of Nine Metrotech in the
conference room, conducting an interview
with Father John Delendick into the events
of September 11th.
The time now is 1431 hours.
Q. Father, if you would just be good
enough to tell us your story from that day.
A. I had just finished saying the 8:30
mass at St. Michael's in Brooklyn. The pager
went off and said that a plane had crashed into
one of the towers of the Trade Center. I called
emergency operations center and said I was
responding, and I left for the Trade Center.
I went through the Battery Tunnel. I
parked my car as close to the Battery Tunnel as
possible and walked to the Trade Center from
there along West Street. I stopped for a few
minutes to talk to Jerry Barber, who was
opposite -- I guess we were standing on the
corner of Liberty Street and West. I believe
that's where I saw him. I then proceeded down
J. DELENDICK 3
further .
He told me that the command post was on
West Street down in front of the Financial
Center. According to this paper, it's Two World
Financial Center, Merrill Lynch. They were set
up in front of there with two huge garage doors
which went underneath the Financial Center.
I spoke to Ganci briefly, told him I
was there. I saw Bill Feehan, said hello to him.
I stood there for a while talking to Timmy
Stackpole and to Chief Ed Henry, both of whom
left a few minutes later.
And Henry picked up his tack and said
to me: "I've got to go to work," and he went
across the street to the Marriott. Timmy
Stackpole and I continued to talk -- in fact,
people started jumping off the north tower at
that point. We were watching that. I said to
Timmy I think we should go back to the office.
I should mention that behind us a lot
of different companies were staging. That's
where they were waiting to move in. I said:
"Timmy, we should go back and remind the officers
to look after their probies because I don't think
J. DELENDICK 4
they're going to be able to handle this. I
turned around with Timmy, and we both looked and
then looked at each other, because no one was
handling it, the probies or the veterans.
Timmy at that point took a group of
guys -- I'm not sure who was with him -- and went
across the street as well. I believe they went
to the Marriott. Most people going to the south
tower went to the Marriott and went through the
Marriott to get there.
The top of the building kind of started
to rumble, and we all looked up. It looked --
Q. Let me interrupt you for a second.
Were you there when the second plane hit?
A. No. When the second plane hit, I was
still in Brooklyn. I was trying to get through
the tunnel on Hamilton Avenue. We saw the plane,
but I never saw it hit. I remember saying to
myself, boy, that guy is awful low in the
pattern. I remember saying something really
stupid like, you know, did he come down to see
what happened with the first one? It never
dawned on me that he was heading for the other
tower, but that's where it was headed.
J. DELENDICK 5
We heard a rumbling noise, and it
appeared that that first tower, the south tower,
had exploded, the top of it. That's what I saw,
what a lot of us saw. We ran down underneath the
Financial Center.
Q. The garages behind you?
A. The garages.
We were followed by that cloud, that
dark black cloud. It was very difficult to
breathe, very difficult to see.
I stopped running or I stopped going
down when it leveled off. There was like a ramp
that went down, and I stopped at the bottom ramp
where it leveled off. Bill Feehan was next to
me. Ray Downey was over there too, because they
both started talking -- I knew it was them
because they were talking, so I knew.
I remember asking Ray Downey was it the
jet fuel that blew up. He said at that point he
thought there were bombs up there because it was
too even. As we've since learned, it was the jet
fuel that was dropping down that caused all this.
But he said it was too even.
Q. Symmetrical?
J. DELENDICK 6
A. So his original thought was that he
thought it was a bomb up there as well.
We then started walking up, back up. I
was with Bill Feehan. I'm not sure where Ray
Downey went. I understand Pete Ganci found a
stairwell, went up a stairwell and went back to
the lobby, back to the command post where we
were.
Bill and I stopped a few times on the
ramp going up. There were some firefighters who
had fallen there. I don't know who they were. I
didn't really get to see their faces. You
couldn't really see much. You trip over them is
how - -
Q. You found them.
A. We would grab other firefighters to
help them down further. They had apparently
minor injuries. They were okay, but they had
fallen or whatever. We got people to assist them
to go down further into the building.
I remember saying to Bill at one point
we had to be near the garage doors. I said we
should be seeing daylight soon. Little did I
know that we weren't going to see daylight. I
J. DELENDICK 7
didn't even think. He said yeah, you're right.
Next thing we knew, we were outside.
There was kind of - - I don't know what to call
it, like an island between two garages on the
driveway outside that had flowers in it. We were
right next to it, so we knew we were outside,
couldn't realize. Couldn't see anything.
We didn't know the building came down.
We just knew the top of the building exploded and
didn't know what happened to the rest of the
building. You just couldn't see anything.
Things began to lift a little bit.
Just to take a step back, when I got
out, we discovered we were outside, somebody said
to me there's somebody hurt down on West Street.
And I started walking south on West Street.
That's when I began to notice fire trucks that
were damaged and ambulances on the side and cars
destroyed .
I stopped and said where am I going?
Where am I looking for this guy who is injured?
I have no idea where I'm going. I turned and
went back to --
Q. Where the command post was?
J. DELENDICK 8
A. -- where the command post was.
Ganci was there at this point, and I
stood there a few minutes. Pete started yelling,
saying to everyone that we should start moving
north and we're going to re-form the command post
up on West and Chambers Street.
A whole group of us started moving
north again. I'm not sure who I was with. We
just started moving north. When we got to the
corner of West and Vesey, we heard that kind of
same rumbling noise. And someone just yelled
run, and we all started running. Some people ran
north. I ran with a whole bunch of people going
towards the river.
Q. West?
A. On Vesey Street, west.
I remember a cop running along next to
me. I remember this. This is great. We were
running along, and a cop is running next to me.
He says: "Father, can I go to confession?" I
looked and said: "This is an act of war, isn't
it?" He said: "Yeah, I believe so." I said:
"Then I'm giving general absolution." I gave
everyone general absolution, and I kept running.
J. DELENDICK 9
Q. You ' re covered?
A. Also I ran into a bunch of guys from
the Secret Service, about 25 or 30 of them, all
in their suits. I don't know the name of the
street that's behind the World Financial Center.
Q. It might be North End or --
A. It must be North Avenue. They were
walking along North, crossing Vesey, and they
were going down further. I stopped one of them
and I said where are you going? He said one of
our members is in the building and we have to go
find him. I remember saying to him I don't think
it ' s a good idea going down there right now. He
said no, we've got to find him. I said fine, go
right ahead, do what you have to do.
I kept going. I walked along the
river, and a group of us walked along the river.
We walked past the high school, Stuyvesant High
School. There's an alleyway between the high
school and --
Q. The river?
A. -- the river. I'm not sure what was
there. I think the river was there. And we came
up to -- back to West Street. Then at that point
J. DELENDICK 10
we're all standing around. Where is everyone?
Where's Pete? Where's Bill?
Nigro came a little while later.
Apparently he had walked around I think he said
South Street. He was down the other way, walked
around somehow and found his way back to Chambers
Street.
Things began to clear. We were
looking, and we realized both buildings were no
longer there. Many of us just walked back down
West Street back to the towers to see what we
could do.
Q. There was --
A. I learned Father Judge was dead, and I
began to learn that so many guys were gone.
Q. Heck of a day, huh?
A. I found the worst part of the day was
people coming up to me that I knew and there were
guys who had sons on the job or fathers on the
job or brothers on the job and they would be
asking me: Did you see my brother? Have you
seen my father? Have you seen my son? I had to
tell them no. I didn't even know they were
there. That made it very hard.
J. DELENDICK 11
Q. Father, is there anything else you can
think of that you might like to add just for the
history, any feelings, anything else? Feel free.
If not --
A. No, I think that's about it, I guess.
Q. In that case I thank you for the
interview?
MR. TAMBASCO: And the time is now 1443
hours.
File No. 9110231
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM JOHNSON
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
W. JOHNSON
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Today is December 6,
2001. The time is 1315 hours. This is Battalion
Chief Ronald Kemly of the New York City Fire
Department conducting an interview with the
following individual, Firefighter William Johnson,
fireman first, assigned to ladder 147, detailed to
the research and development unit. I'm
interviewing him at 59 Page Avenue, regarding the
events of September 11, 2001.
Q. Fireman Johnson, please tell me what happened
while you were there?
A. The morning of September 11, I reported to
the office of R and D, where on notification of the
accident at the World Trade Center, we responded in the
R and D vehicle. Along with Lieutenant Stein,
Lieutenant Monachelli, Firefighter Stein and myself.
We responded through the Midtown Tunnel en route to the
World Trade Center. On arriving at Church Street and
Vesey Street, we pulled our Suburban into the corner.
As we exited the vehicle, I noticed ESU units
circling the area, who advised us to keep our rig
closer to the corner, so in the process of backing our
rig into the corner, as I looked up, I could at that
moment see the first building coming down. In that
W. JOHNSON
instance, we all started to make our way back up Vesey
and at that point I spotted a doorway. I jumped into
the doorway and stayed there as the debris and rubble
came down from the first World Trade Center.
As it cleared, or started to clear, I noticed
a few civilians walking around and we escorted them
into the buildings. After escorting the civilians into
the buildings, we exited, regrouped at the Suburban,
donned our masks, crossed the street going toward
building 5, where we encountered who we thought was
Father Judge.
As they brought Father Judge to us, we
examined him quickly, noticing that there was no pulse
and we left him in the hands of EMS. As we made our
way into building 5 we were notified that there were a
couple of hundred people trapped in the subway below.
In an attempt to try to go down there, the second
building started to collapse.
Again heading up towards Vesey, making our
way up, this time I was unable to get to cover. I was
struck by the cloud in the middle of the street. We
stayed in the middle of the street, for a period of
let's say 5 to 10 minutes until everything cleared
again.
W. JOHNSON
Getting out of that cloud, we regrouped back
at the corner of Broadway and Vesey, where Lieutenant
Stein began the operations of a command post. I
started my way back down Vesey Street again, to look
for Lieutenant Monachelli, who lost us. We lost each
other as a matter of fact. We regrouped. I found
Lieutenant Monachelli on the corner of Church and
Vesey. From that point we started to make a couple of
surveys and searches of the area. Noticing Ladder
119 ' s rig, and a couple of members from that company
and that's about all I can remember.
For an hour or two we stood there searching
and then I was taken to Bellevue Hospital. I couldn't
see any more. I had pretty bad eye problems, so they
transported me to Bellevue where I stayed for I believe
an hour and a half. I was treated, released and the
health team brought me back home. That was it.
Q. Okay, when you say you were -- you saw the
people that were with Judge, any ID, any unit IDs on
them?
A. I remember seeing a court officer, an OEM
person with an OEM jacket on and an EMS driver, I think
think it was, but that's about the only people I can
remember seeing.
W. JOHNSON
Q. Okay. Before the second building came down
or subsequent to your arrival, did you happen to see
any other Fire Department units that you could identify
at any place?
A. I saw Engine 226. I don't know exactly where
they were located right now, but I remember seeing 226
on the rig. I think they were on that Church and Vesey
corner .
Q. Other than the vehicle, you didn't see any
Fire Department personnel?
A. No, I didn't see any Fire Department
personnel.
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Okay, that concludes
the interview. Thank you.
File No. 9110235
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER PATRICK SULLIVAN
Interview Date: December 5, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
P. SULLIVAN
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 5, 2001. The time is 1:40 p.m. This is
Firefighter Patrick Sullivan's interview from the
World Trade Center. I'm Battalion Chief Robert
Burns of the Safety Battalion.
Q. If you would Pat, please tell me about what
you saw or heard on that day when you guys responded to
the Trade Center?
A. When I first saw the plane crash on the news,
I was getting relieved. I was coming off a 24 and I
was supposed to be going home. I was actually in my
civilian clothes. After the first plane hit, they had
a voice alarm announcement and ordered everyone going
home to stay and every Engine would be riding with five
men. I don't know how long -- I changed back into my
uniform. I don't know how long it was after that, 5
minutes, 10 minutes, we responded. A little after the
48 went.
We went through the tunnel as we were
responding. We were going over into the Gowanus
through the tunnel, we were supposed to go to the
staging area outside the tunnel and as we were going,
you could see the building, you could see the fire, you
could see the flames and you could also see the smoke
P. SULLIVAN
coming out of the building. There was also papers
blowing as far as here, regular sheets of paper blowing
through the air. I guess that's from when the plane
hit.
We went to the staging area. We stayed at
the staging area for maybe 5, 10 minutes until all the
companies that were going on the ticket, everyone was
there, they all grouped together and we went. I don't
know all the companies that were there, but I know 201
was with us. I couldn't tell you what other companies
were there at the time.
We responded and we went through the tunnel.
We came up the West Side Highway on the right side of
the divider and we were stopped by either a Chief or a
police officer. We couldn't go any further because
there was organic matter in the street and they were
considering it evidence. There was a part of a body
probably from when the plane hit.
So we got out of the rig and we started
walking. We walked maybe 50 feet further and there was
a Deputy Chief there. I don't know the Deputy Chief's
name. He was there with his aide. He was an on duty
Deputy Chief. He had an official car. There was
another Deputy Chief there, I think he came in his
P. SULLIVAN
private car, because he was there with the other Chief,
unless they were riding with 2, which could have been
two. Maybe they both took the run in when they got
it.
Anyway he told us drop our roll ups, that we
were going to walk up, we were going to go to the 40th
floor. I think there was another staging area on the
40th floor, tower two, the south tower, if that's tower
two, the one closer to the Battery Tunnel. We were
going to walk up. He said it's going to take 40
minutes to an hour to get up there, to drop our roll
ups and start walking.
He said watch out for bodies, bodies coming
down like leaves from a tree. They were coming down
all over the place. He said God be with you and we
started walking.
As we started walking, I was looking straight
up at the tower and I saw the top of the tower coming
down. I saw the black smoke, sort of like pushing out,
and I saw debris starting to come out from the
building, probably from one floor depressing on the
other, blowing everything out and I knew it was coming
down.
I turned around and I yelled to the guys that
P. SULLIVAN
were with me to run. They seemed to be just standing
there, frozen. I don't know if it was disbelief or
shock or what. But they snapped out of it and they
turned around and started running. As we started
running, we were right -- there's a, on the West Side
Highway, there is a pass through. There is a concrete
divider that goes between the two lanes, north and
south, and there is a pass through right on the other
side of the pedestrian bridge that didn't come down.
That's where we were, walking towards 2 World
Trade Center. That's where we were when we started
walking. When I saw the building was coming down, I
turned around and started running back towards Albany
Street. I was trying to get around another building
and down the block. I saw tomorrow Tommy Dun was with
me. He was in front of me. He was our proby, and
another guy, Darren Jacobs, he was in front of me as
well.
I didn't get as far as Darren and Tommy.
Tommy must have been 30 feet in front of me and after
the collapse he couldn't hear me. I was calling for
him. Darren kept on running. I don't know where he
wound up ending up, but Tommy Dunn was maybe 30 feet in
front of me. I was right by a Suburban car.
P. SULLIVAN
As I was running, there was debris, I don't
know what it was, rocks or part of the building,
shooting over my head, hitting the ground and it was
going through windows and taking cars out. I ran as
fast as I could and as far as I could until the black
dust cloud overtook me and I couldn't see any more. I
knew that there was a car there because I saw it just
before it blacked out. I went over to the car and I
thought not to go under the car, because if something
landed on the car it would crush me and the car. I
thought I would just go next to it like a void, try to
make a void and hope for the best.
I remember thinking that -- first I remember
praying that I was going to make it out of there alive,
but I didn't think I was going to. I didn't think I
was going to make it out of there. I prayed that my
family would be okay. My wife and my boy would be
okay, and I waited for something substantial to land on
me and I was hoping it was going to be quick. I was
hoping I wouldn't be trapped for any period of time. I
was getting pelted with -- it felt like soft balls. I
couldn't breathe. It was like putting your face in a
bag of cement and trying to take a deep breath.
I couldn't get any air. It was like holding
P. SULLIVAN
your breath, trying to breathe in and breathe out.
Nothing was going in and nothing was going out. So I
tried to take my mask. This all happened in between
maybe 15 and 30 seconds. I tried to take my mask and
take a hit off my mask and it didn't work. There was
no air coming out of it. There was a pile of dust
inside so I shook it out. Shook all the dust out and
tried to take another breath. It just wasn't giving me
any air. I remember trying to turn the valve again,
thinking that my mask wasn't on, but it was on. It
just wasn't working. It was clogged up with shit in
it. I banged it a couple of times. I finally got a
little bit of a breath out of the mask and shortly
after that, it started clearing up anyway. I could
start seeing daylight through the dust.
I remember it being very very quiet, like
being under water. I was calling out to my proby. I
was yelling his name and I was yelling, you know,
anybody in 240, because I didn't have a radio and I
didn't know if anybody else made it. He couldn't hear
me calling. He must have been maybe 30 feet in front
of me. The sound must have been like not traveling
through the air. It must have been stopping dead
because it was so thick.
P. SULLIVAN
After that, I got up and I started seeing, I
started hearing pass alarms going off. I started
walking around. I started looking for my company. I
couldn't find anyone from my company. I was on Albany
Street. I went down to -- one more block and I turned
around and went back to the rig. I figured maybe guys
would go back to the rig. That's where I ran into John
Winkler. And we tried to test the hydrant and hook up
to a hydrant to put out car fires. There were a bunch
of car fires right by the rig.
There was a Deputy Chief's rig on fire that
was extended to 113 ' s rig. There was a big ambulance,
like a rescue company truck, but it wasn't a rescue
company truck. It was a huge ambulance. It must have
had Scott bottles or oxygen bottles on it. These were
going off. You would hear the air go SSS boom and they
were exploding. So we stretched a line and tried to
put that out. He could only use booster water.
We would open up the hydrants. The hydrants
weren't working. The water main broke or something.
So after we ran our booster water, the rig was
basically useless. 113 ' s rig went up and we tried to
get a line from the fire boats to supply one of the
rigs so we could get some water.
P. SULLIVAN
At that point I had to leave because I
couldn't see any more. I couldn't open my eyes. I had
to rinse my eyes out quite a few times during the
course of what we were doing. After a while I couldn't
open my eyes any more. There was fiberglass or
whatever the hell was in there. They led me. Two guys
led me to the water by a rope and a cop drove me to an
ambulance.
From the ambulance they rinsed my eyes out
again. I walked to the tunnel and hitched a ride with
a Port Authority guy to the other side and came back to
the fire house. That must have been about 2:00 or so
or 3:00 in the afternoon. I don't know if I left
anything out, but that's basically what happened, as I
remember it.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Great. Thanks, Pat.
It's 1:51 p.m., this is the conclusion of the
interview.
File No. 9110236
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOHN WINKLER
Interview Date: December 5, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
J. WINKLER 2
CHIEF BURNS: Today is the 5th of
December, 2001. The time is 1:25 p.m.
This is Engine 240. My name is Battalion
Chief Robert Burns, New York City Fire
Department. I'm conducting an interview of
Firefighter John Winkler, Engine 240. This
is in regards to the events of September
11th, 2001.
Q. Maybe, John, you can tell me in your
own words what happened at the Trade Center from
the time that you responded to the scene until
you guys left the scene.
A. When we received the ticket, we were
assigned to the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn
Battery Tunnel. There was a staging area. We
were the first ones there. On the arrival of the
other companies, we received a ticket to respond
to West Street, West and Liberty.
I was driving that day. I went through
the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, came up West Street.
There was a chief at West and Albany who stopped
us right on West Street and told us to remain
right here.
Members of my company got out, grabbed
J. WINKLER 3
their rollups, reported to the chief that was on
the sidewalk on the west side sidewalk of West
Street. This was after the second plane hit,
before the first tower came down.
I was told to stay with the rig. I
proceeded to put my bunker gear on when I looked
up and I saw the tower falling, the first tower
coming down. I jumped into the cab, put my
helmet on and just ducked and just waited. It
shattered the windows, shook the rig.
While sitting in the rig, I heard over
the radio that "I'm trapped underneath the rig."
So I responded -- I'm not sure if I responded on
the department radio or on the handy talky --
"Engine 240 chauffeur coming to get you."
I climbed out of the rig, climbed over
the rubble, got my mask and went forward and
walked north on West Street. Right before the
south pedestrian bridge, there was I believe it
was one of our members stuck under an ambulance.
There was another fireman with him. He said, "We
have a guy under the ambulance here."
I gave a mayday on the radio that I'm
240 chauffeur, we have a guy stuck under an
J. WINKLER 4
ambulance by the south bridge. I then proceeded
to grab members from Ladder 14. We grabbed their
air bags, went back to the ambulance. By that
time the guy was already out. The member was
out. So I left 113.
I went back south on West Street to
where 240 was. At that time I was told by
Chief I don't know who that we have to start
putting these fire outs. There were numerous car
vehicles on fire. There were also ESU vehicles
on fire. I was told they have ammunition in them
and we have to get them out.
Tested the hydrant; there was water.
Connected to the hydrant; there was no water. In
the meantime I put the rig in pumps. One of my
members stretched a line with the help from other
firefighters. While I was in pumps, I used that
as a booster and was putting car fires out.
We tried to get another hydrant. Same
thing: opened the hydrant; there was water.
Connected to it, there wasn't enough water.
While doing all of this, he ran out of booster
line.
The best I can remember, we just got
J. WINKLER 5
together. That's when the second tower came
down. I dove behind a chief's rig, the two of
us, and same thing. We were down there for a
while. Mouth full of the dust, choking on it.
Couldn't see for a while. Finally it cleared up
a little bit to see.
We regrouped, got a couple of our guys.
Everybody proceeded to walk down Albany to the
water, where we started stretching lines to the
fire boat. We continued stretching lines,
lengths of hose, up Albany Street to West Street.
Pretty much the rest of the day that's
what we were doing, taking lines from the fire
from the water up Albany Street, down Albany to
Washington, around, and just continued doing that
most of the day. That's about it.
Q. Let me ask you a question, John. When
you said you saw chiefs when you came in, do you
know the name or the identity of the battalion
or - -
A. I know one of them that was on the
sidewalk was Chief Lakiotes.
Q. Okay, from the Safety Battalion.
A. He was on the sidewalk. My company
J. WINKLER 6
reported to him. There was another chief in the
street that stopped me and said "Keep the rig
right here." I was double parked right next to I
believe it was 210, right behind Ladder 113.
I didn't catch his name, but I think he
was the guy that was pretty much running this
area, telling us to stretch lines, we've got to
get hose, we've got to put fires out. I'm not
sure of his name.
Q. Okay. Great. Okay, John, thanks for
the interview.
CHIEF BURNS: The time is 1:29 p.m.
File No. 9110237
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER OWEN CARLOCK
Interview Date: December 5th, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
0. CARLOCK i
CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is December
5th, 2001. The time is 4:17 p.m. I am
Battalion Chief Robert Burns, Safety
Battalion, FDNY. I'm conducting an
interview with Firefighter Owen Carlock,
Ladder 122, detailed on the day of the
incident to Engine 220. This is in
reference to the events that occurred on
September 11th, 2001.
Q. Owen, if you would, just tell us in
your own words exactly what happened that day.
A. We took the Brooklyn Bridge, which was
closed. We had trouble getting there from here
with all the traffic. We took the Brooklyn
Bridge, which was emptied at Chambers Street, a
lot of traffic, obviously, in Manhattan.
We went to West Street, turned left on
West. We picked up a straggler, John Jermyn,
from the --he used to be here in 122. He works
in the Fire Department Museum. We picked him up
and drove around to -- as near as I can figure
out, I think it was between Murray and Barclay
Street, where we left the rig on the southbound
lanes.
0. CARLOCK 3
We walked down the southbound lanes to
I guess it was the command post. Captain Grabher
went over there, and they told him to go to the
south tower. So he said he wasn't going to take
Liberty because of the jumpers.
So we went to some building on the
corner of Albany and West Street that's under
construction. It's being renovated. We went
that way. We took Albany past Washington, and
then we were on our way to Greenwich? No, it was
at Washington when the tower came down on us.
Somebody yelled "Oh, shit, here it comes." It
was coming towards us.
So we dove behind the Deutsche Bank,
and the five of us -- three went back, four went
ahead, the seven of us. Four of us laid behind
that building, waiting. We thought we were going
to die.
After that we tried to take a window in
the back of the bank. We did take a window, but
behind it was a steel wall, corrugated tin or
whatever. We couldn't get into the window.
They followed me. I had the light.
They followed me, and we went into Deutsche Bank
0. CARLOCK 4
into the side entrance, got our wits about us,
and we went across the street to get Eddie and
George and Mike Schroeck.
Then we were going to make our way back
to the command center when the north tower came
down. We ducked into some hotel. I don't know
what hotel it was. It was on West Street south
of Albany.
After that came down and the stuff
cleared, the officer said, "Listen, we're not
going to go back to that area. We're going to
come around, because we don't know what else is
going to come down, what else could come tumbling
down. "
So we went over to the water, and from
there we helped Marine 6 put it into -- I think
it was Captain Fuentes. They dug him out. He
was banged up pretty good. We helped put him on
the boat.
At that time Captain Grabher told Eddie
Plunkett and myself, "Go find a rig and back it
up to the fire boat, Marine 9, which is already
there." He said, "We're going to at least get
water as best as we can to the towers."
0. CARLOCK 5
Eddie and I found I don't know whose
rig it was. We backed it up to the fire hose,
took the three and a half off of there and went
as far as we could. Then another rig came, and
they stretched their three and a half off the rig
we were on, and then they left.
I went back to find Captain Grabher,
Mike Schroeck, George and Dean. They were
nowhere to be found. Later on I found out they
were on the ninth floor of one of the apartment
buildings on the west side of West Street,
fighting the fire on the ninth floor. That's why
I couldn't find them. I had no radio. I had no
clue where they were.
So I hooked up after a while with Chief
Congiusta of 48. He and I went down with a
couple other guys from 240 into the parking lot
of the Vista to look for 6 Truck, which was
missing at the time. We were standing there and
waited for him to come out, and he never came
out. He took an underground passageway and came
out on Barclay Street.
After that I hooked up with four guys,
recall guys. I hooked up with 220 and stayed the
0. CARLOCK 6
rest of the night until 11:30 and went to the
hospital. I had my eyes cleaned out.
As far as the companies, somebody said
205 was right in front of us, and I don't
remember seeing them. That's the best I can tell
you where we were, where everybody is, that's
what we did the day of the attack.
CHIEF BURNS: That concludes our
interview. The time is 4:22 p.m.
File No. 9110239
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER GERARD CASEY
Interview Date: December 5, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
CHIEF BURNS: Today is the 5th of
December, 2001. The time is 3:59 p.m. I
am Chief Robert Burns of the Safety
Battalion conducting an interview with
Firefighter Second Grade Casey from Ladder
122 in regard to the events that took place
on September 11th, 2001.
Q. If you would, just tell me in your own
words what happened at the World Trade Center
fire.
A. We received the alarm about a quarter
to 9. We responded to the tunnel with 132, 105,
101 and 131. 101 might have made -- I think 131.
We got stuck in the tunnel for ten minutes.
There was a car with two firefighters. They
cleared out the left lane, and we finally made it
through the tunnel.
We were last in line because we were
getting into the tunnel via the service lane, and
105 and 132 were closer in, closer to the tunnel
portals than we were, because we were in the
service lane. So we ended up behind them. 105
took the front of the north tower. We went with
132 and I believe 131 or 101, I'm not sure.
We had to pull the rig out. We had
spots in front of the rig where there were a lot
of bodies and debris in front of us, body parts.
We were in front of the north tower where the
staging area was.
We positioned the rig up around --
passed the north tower at Vesey Street and we
proceeded to walk towards the north tower at the
staging area, which is in front of the north
tower. There were two garages directly across
the street from the north tower.
The incident commander and Ganci,
Feehan was standing there too, divided up the
trucks and the engines, engines on one side of
the garage, trucks on the other side. We
couldn't go through the front of the north tower
because there were too many bodies on the ground.
So he wanted us to go to the south
tower, all the truck companies that were in that
garage bay front area, about five truck
companies. We grabbed extra bottles, proceeded
to the overpass that is next to the Marriott, I
believe, on West Street, and we had to go
underneath the overpass to avoid debris falling
from the south tower and bodies. People were
jumping.
We made it across there in time to get
into the building. 132, 105 and 101 I saw. When
we were in the lobby, I saw them. We were
standing fast in the Marriott lobby. Close to
the doors where the elevators were in the south
tower was a doorway that leads into the lobby.
That was the last known positions I
know that I saw them, those companies I mentioned
that were next to us. I spoke to Vinny Brunton
on the Brooklyn Battery's Brooklyn side. We
thought we were going to be there all day. They
were giving us water. Guys were cooling off. We
knew we were going up. We didn't know if we
could take any elevators at that point. Later on
we found out we were going to go up and walked
up.
We got the order to move, to go ahead
and go forward. We started putting our gear on.
Other companies moved up ahead of us maybe 20
feet, 25 feet ahead of us. There was a short
distance between us, and 131 was behind us,
waiting on us to move. We were just moving up in
the line going in. I believe 24 Truck was behind
131. So it was us, 131 and 24 Truck. In front
of us was 132, 105 and 101.
We put our gear on, started going
moving forward, and that's when we heard the
rumbling. Somebody screamed, "The building's
coming down." I had one shoulder strap on, I
dropped my mask and I turned around and made it
to -- I tried to run towards the restaurant to
get out.
I didn't get any more than one step and
everything just turned black, and I got pulled
into a corner in there that was still standing.
My helmet came off. I had a concussion, I
believe. That was it. At that point I didn't
think I was going to make it out alive. I
thought that was it.
I made noise at the door. I banged on
the door really loud before guys came to me. One
guy from 24 Truck was bleeding really bad. He
had no face piece on his regulator. I said,
"Let's get this door open." I put my light on
and I started banging and making a lot of noise.
Other guys came and started lifting up the door.
I heard a guy from my company screaming, "I've
got the way out. It's over here." I followed
his voice with two other firemen. I followed his
voice.
That's pretty much what I remember as
far as locations and locations of the companies
that I saw that were operating.
Q. Which tower were you operating in?
A. South tower.
Q. South tower.
From there where did you go? Did you
go to EMS?
A. I came out. I came out of the crater.
The street was gone, the restaurant and
everything was gone. I saw Koyles and Vitiello.
They were alive. I saw them and then I turned
around and I couldn't see them. Walker had come
out. I turned around and Koyles was gone. I
don't know where he went.
I told Vitiello, I said, "Follow me,"
because he's a proby. Then I turned around and
he was gone. He walked another way. I walked up
-- by the overpass was a fire truck there. There
was a fireman crushed. There was another guy who
was screaming, going crazy. I walked another 50
feet and there was another guy that was dead.
There were bodies everywhere.
I walked another like 50 feet. I was
limping. I hurt my knee, my back. My eyes were
closing. I couldn't see. I bumped into a guy on
the floor. I helped him. He was hurting. He
was injured bad. I started walking with him.
Another fireman came over and helped me.
We just kept walking, and we ended up
at the water marina. A boat came over, and they
pretty much threw us on the boat. They said,
"You guys are banged up. Get on the boat." And
that was it.
Q. Okay, Jerry, thanks for the interview.
CHIEF BURNS: It's 4:06 p.m. This is
the end of the interview.
File No. 9110240
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOHN PICARELLO
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
J. PICARELLO 2
CHIEF LAKIOTES: Today's date is
December 6th at approximately 1320 hours.
My name is Battalion Chief Art Lakiotes from
the safety command. I'm here to
interview --
FIREFIGHTER PICARELLO: John Picarello,
40 Battalion.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: -- regarding the
events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. If you can start me off with the
response. I guess it was you and Chief Henry.
A. Right. We responded from quarters with
some units, went down toward Fourth Avenue. Our
original assignment was to a staging area on the
Brooklyn side of the Battery Tunnel. We reached
somewhere around the tunnel when the second plane
hit. The second plane hadn't hit yet. So it was
right about that time the second plane hit.
The tunnel was a mess. They were
trying to clear it for the rest of the emergency
vehicles and everybody else and their mother
trying to get out of the city.
I went through the tunnel, made a right
out of the tunnel onto West Street and went up as
J. PICARELLO 3
far as I could. I dropped off Chief Henry and
his equipment. Then I backed up to get the
vehicle out of the middle of the street and
parked it by West and Rector on West Street just
short of Rector Street.
Q. Here's a map. That may help you a
little bit.
A. Okay. That's where I parked, by Rector
Street.
So I got out and suited up and told
Chief Henry I'd meet up with him.
After parking it, I walked along West
Street up to about Liberty, just a little past I
guess it's the south bridge, the one that's by
Liberty. I was there for a few minutes, just
like everybody else, just looking up at the two
gaping holes, looking at the towers, debris
falling.
I remember in particular my attention
was on the north tower, just watching jumpers and
people falling. I don't know much about the
south tower, the huge hole. My attention I just
know was mostly toward the north tower.
After a few minutes walking underneath
J. PICARELLO 4
that south bridge, just because of the debris
that was coming down, I made my way into the
lobby of the hotel through the corner. There's a
bar and grill or something there.
Q. Tall Ships?
A. I don't remember the name of it . I do
remember that's where I entered. There was some
EMS workers taking people out, swapping helmets
with people so they can get across the street. I
went through there, and walking through there you
can go through a double doorway into the lobby.
So I got into the lobby of the hotel.
There were some other guys there, the Fire
Department, police, EMS. I always said there had
to be about a hundred people. That's what I
said, in my estimation. There were a lot of
people there.
I walked through the lobby and got to
about, I'd say, maybe halfway through to the
center of it, met up with Chief Henry. There was
another chief there. I wasn't sure exactly if he
was a deputy or acting deputy. I wasn't sure.
He was giving out assignments.
So it was me and Chief Henry. There
J. PICARELLO 5
were two other guys to my left, and there was
Chief Stack on my right. I just remember looking
up and seeing Safety Battalion. I never met him
before. That was the first time I met him. So
there was a group of us.
Our assignment was either the 70th or
the 75th floor of the north tower. They gave us
some units that Chief Henry had, so I didn't have
them, and said some of them already started up
and just meet up with them and go as far as you
could.
I'd say we were there just maybe a
couple of minutes. We took a couple of steps --
(Interruption. )
CHIEF LAKIOTES: Okay. We're
continuing with the tape. We stopped it
momentarily to answer the phone.
Q. John, you said you're in the lobby now.
You saw Chief Stack with Chief Henry, and you
were assigned to go to the 75th floor. Some of
the units had already started up. You go?
A. Yeah. We go meet up with them.
So we were there a few minutes, and we
started to walk, make our way through the lobby
J. PICARELLO 6
to the other side. I'd say we got maybe ten
steps. We didn't go very far. I heard sort of
like a rumbling sound. We stopped, looked at
each other, and took off.
We just took off away from the doors.
Instead of running out, we ran to our right,
which would be toward the walls. It just
happened really quick. I just remember running.
Stack was in front of me. Henry went to my left
with the other guys.
In about a second or two, you just
heard like a ba-ba-ba-boom, and everything just
came down and everything was pitch-black. I
landed on top of Stack, and we were both in the
corner by the wall. Everything was just quiet,
pitch-black, quiet I guess for a few seconds or
so, I would imagine.
We got up. Stack had gotten up. He
didn't have his helmet. He looked like he was
trying to get out of his turnout. He got out of
his turnout. He asked me to give him a hand with
it. He pulled on it, pulled out his flashlight,
and it was half under the wall. So the wall we
were against probably shifted. His turnout was
J. PICARELLO 7
under the wall, so we just left it.
Then we started hearing some guys
calling. Chief Henry was trying to call outside
on the handy talky. Nobody was responding. It
was almost like it was dead. You could hear
nothing on the handy talkies, but you could hear
some muffled sounds, both guys calling for units
and some guys calling for help.
About three or four feet behind me,
when I stood up and Stack stood up, from ceiling
to floor was all collapsed down, so we were cut
off from the rest of the lobby. I couldn't see
too far in front of us, but I could see debris
all over the place.
Immediately to our right was the wall
that we were against. I don't know, it looked
like a coat check. That's the best I can make
out of it. In there I could see debris probably
shoulder high, and I could see the wall was open
on the other side of that. You could see that it
was collapsed.
Right to my right also there was a guy
yelling for help. I found out later -- I don't
know if he was an officer or what, but I do know
J. PICARELLO 8
that he made it out. But he was buried. It
looked like he was in a wall. I don't know if it
was in a hallway, but it looked like he was in a
wall.
So there were a few of us, I'd say
three or four of us, trying to dig him out,
throwing stuff, chairs and everything, I would
say maybe 15 minutes. It seemed longer, but it
was probably about 15 minutes digging him out.
He came out. He was able to walk.
Q. Firefighter?
A. He was a firefighter.
Q. You don't have any idea who he was?
A. No. The group I was with right there,
I knew nobody.
Q. You had lost Larry? You had separated
from Larry at this point?
A. No, Larry was with me the whole time.
Q. Okay. So the other group, you only
knew Larry?
A. Yeah. It was like we were about two
groups. After the collapse, I'd say it was
probably maybe 12 to possibly 15 people. There
was about 12 of us. But with that there were
J. PICARELLO <
also some hotel employees that were with us. It
wasn't only members.
Q. Of the 12 or 15 members besides Larry,
did you know anybody else that was there with
you?
A. No.
Q. Chief Henry wasn't with you at this
point?
A. Chief Henry was with us, yeah. He
was - -
Q. Part of the group. So besides Larry,
Stack and Chief Henry --
A. No, I didn't know anybody else.
Q. -- you didn't know anybody else?
A. No. I did know there was another
battalion chief there.
Q. Big tall guy with gray hair?
A. I don't know if he had gray hair.
Everybody had gray hair.
Q. I know. 0' Flaherty?
A. That's what I found out. His arm was
messed up. That's what I remember. I remember
his arm -- he put his hand in the pocket of his
turnout and he just couldn't use it. He was
J. PICARELLO 10
there.
Q. Chief Downey? Do you know Chief
Downey?
A. I don't know Chief Downey, no.
I remember after a few minutes digging
this guy out, Henry and one group started ahead
of us. We felt like a cool breeze in our face,
so we decided just follow that. They went on
ahead. So we were a little bit ways behind them
after we got this guy out.
We started to walk. We came down to I
guess it was a corner, and there were three doors
on the left. One was a stairway that went
downstairs. That was pitch-black. We didn't
think that was a good option. There was a
stairway from the stairs next one.
The next one opened into a corridor
that I thought looked like a service entrance,
because it was cinder block, concrete. Then
after that there were double doors with an exit
sign. But we elected just to stay with that
second door because when you opened it up we
could see light all the way down at the end of
the hall. So we elected to go down there.
J. PICARELLO 11
At that point I don't know exactly how
many were with us, but I do know there were some
hotel employees. There was a big heavy guy. His
leg looked a little mangled.
Q. A hotel employee?
A. A hotel employee.
Stack was helping him. Another one of
the guys was helping him. We were just sort of
helping him along down that hallway.
Q. In reference point, walking north
towards tower one, do you think?
A. Okay, the best I can tell is when we
got out, if I could say standing in that lobby
right where we were after the collapse, if to my
left was West Street, let's just say, then it was
sort of in that direction. It was north, it
would be, towards West Street but a little
towards north. It was at an angle.
The hallway that we went down was on
our left, but it did open up onto West Street.
We came to the end of it. There was an opening.
I don't know if it was a knee wall or originally
it was a window. I have no idea. But it did
open up onto West Street. You could see out onto
J. PICARELLO 12
West Street, nothing but rubble everywhere.
I remember looking out. I didn't think
I was on West Street at first, because I thought
there was a building on my left, a big slant,
looked like it was going to come down. That
looked like it might have been those big pieces
that came down and stuck in West Street.
Chief Ganci was out there. So I saw
him. There were some other members across the
street, and at that point Ganci was waving guys
out, telling them to get out. So some of the
guys went over -- it was about four feet high.
They went over that, went out across West Street
onto the other side.
I remember to my left I saw two members
coming toward the building and actually going in.
One guy I don't know. The second one I do
remember from 10 Truck was Georgie Bachman.
Georgie Bachman was going in. It almost looked
like a bay or something. I'm not sure. I
remember him going in.
So I stuck my head back in and just
wanted to go over, just head out. I was just
waiting for a lull in the debris; to then run
J. PICARELLO 13
across.
At that point there were two or three
guys who went to our right. If you're facing
that opening on West Street, to my right there
was another little hallway that went out. There
was a door at the end of that and a set of stairs
that also went downstairs.
The guys tried to open that door. It
opened about maybe six inches, and you could see
there was a ton of debris behind it. They
couldn't get it open. They were going to look
for another way out.
I'm not sure who went down the stairs,
but I believe two members went down the stairs.
I don't know who they were. They went down those
stairs, looking for another way out. That's the
point when I got separated from Chief Henry. So
I don't know which way he went.
I came back to the area where all of us
were. They had found a chair for this guy, big
guy. He was sitting down. Now we were just
questioning, do we lift him up, get him over the
wall, who wants to go next?
At that point Ganci was motioning to
J. PICARELLO 14
us, "Come on. Let's get out." Stack said that
he'll wait for another two guys who were still
lagging behind and going to come up. I said,
"I'll wait for them." He told me, "No, you go
ahead and go."
So I went over the wall, and Ganci
called me to him. He had told me that they had
just moved the command post. He said they're
probably not set up yet, but it's up toward Vesey
Street.
He wanted me to go to the command post.
He said he wants four trucks if they've got them,
if there's a squad and a rescue available. He
said just bring them back here as soon as
possible. He just told me, go ahead, go.
That's when I left the building, left
Ganci. I started walking north on West Street.
I remember getting under the north bridge. I
stopped for a few seconds just to catch my
breath. I don't know how long I was there,
probably about 30 seconds, I guess. I started to
walk again. I don't know how far I walked, just
a little ways, and started to hear that rumbling
sound again.
J. PICARELLO 15
I looked up, and the first thing I saw
was the aerial on the top of the tower just
rocking one way and rocking the other way, and
all of a sudden there it goes. So I took off.
I remember running diagonally. I ran
across Vesey diagonally to the other side of West
Street. I do remember making it across Vesey.
The next thing I know, I could feel pressure
behind me. I could feel all sorts of stuff. You
could feel it coming.
I do remember out of the corner of my
eye things started looking grayish and dark.
There was a truck there. A lot of vehicles were
parked. There was a truck there. At that point
I just dove behind the truck --
Q. Apparatus?
A. No, it wasn't apparatus. It was a
plain truck. I don't even remember if it was
either a van or a pickup. I'm not sure which. I
saw the front of the truck.
I dove behind the truck. Just as I hit
the floor, it was like this black just blew past
me. It was like a hurricane. It just blew past.
You could hear stuff breaking and everything. I
J. PICARELLO 16
just covered up.
When that stopped, I just remember
opening my eyes and it was pitch-black. I
couldn't see anything. I do remember it was just
silence. You heard nothing, no radio
transmissions, not even a call for help for a
second or two. Everything was quiet. I didn't
know, did I get buried or something, whatever. I
took a breath. It felt like somebody threw a
handful of sawdust in my mouth. The whole thing,
vomiting and everything else.
At that point when it cleared, the
first transmission I heard was Chief Henry
calling me. So I acknowledged him and told him
that I made it out, I was okay. He said he made
it out. He was a little bit pinned under stuff,
but he said, "I can get out of it." Nothing he
felt was serious. So I told him "meet up with
you later," because he wasn't sure where he was.
So at that point I was able to make it
to my feet. I remember turning around looking
toward where the buildings were. I don't have to
tell you what it looked like. It was just a
mess. The thing that struck me was just looking
J. PICARELLO 17
at the north bridge. I was just there. It was
just crushed to the ground, rubble all over the
place.
The first person I actually saw was
actually Father John Delendick. He had told me
about Father Judge.
I made it to an ambulance, got taken
care of a little bit, and just went back to see
whatever it is that I could do. So I actually
didn't leave the scene until about 12:30, 1:00.
I went to Roosevelt Hospital and came back to the
scene.
Q. So the last place you saw Larry
Stack --
A. The last place I saw Larry --
Q. -- would be east of West Street inside
some part of the building?
A. Yeah, I don't know what part of the
building, where that is. This really doesn't
help me at all. I went back on Monday the 15th
and just looked at the hotel. I couldn't make
heads or tails of where we came out.
Q. But from your description, I'm guessing
you were either at the very north end of the
J. PICARELLO 18
hotel or somehow had gotten into tower one.
A. Something like that. Somebody told me
that we came out in the north tower, but then
again I can ' t - -
Q. No, I understand. The general area.
A. That would be accurate, because I do
remember when I started to walk, when I left
Ganci and went north -- I didn't walk very far at
all and I was under that north bridge.
Stack, the last time I saw him was when
I went over that little wall or out the window,
whatever that thing was. He was standing there
with two or three other members and some hotel
personnel and one of the staff guys, the heavyset
guy. He couldn't walk. His leg was really
messed up.
Q. Brian went out over the wall too, I
think, prior to you getting back. Brian and
Henry went over that wall when you went left to
go see the other firefighters or something by the
stairwell, you said, that went down?
A. Right.
Q. When you got separated from Henry.
A. I got separated just prior to reaching
J. PICARELLO 19
that big opening. He had told me he was going to
down the stairway. I do remember he had somebody
there with a little flashlight or something. It
wasn't even ours. I think one of the hotel
employees had it. So that I remember.
But I had stopped at that point and
turned around with Stack. There was a number of
others. We just stopped, and we were just
helping lead these people out. So Henry went
down the stairs with the other group. That was
the first group. We were sort of behind after we
helped this guy out.
Q. You went down the same staircase,
though?
A. No. It was the same staircase that was
that first door. We didn't go down there. We
passed that. We went through the second door,
which was the long hallway and went through the
opening.
Q. Brian talked about going over a wall
with Henry.
A. So that might be, then, that second
stairway, because there was another one -- you
reached the end of the hall, there's the opening,
J. PICARELLO 20
and then to the right there's a stairway. I
don't know where that goes.
Q. He explains it almost like you did. In
fact, they had to put a chair in front of the
wall so Eddie could step on the chair and get
out .
A. Right. He was ahead of us, because
there was a chair there by the opening. That's
the chair we used for this big heavy guy.
Q. That was probably the chair that they
used to step on to help everybody, Brian with his
broken arm or his broken shoulder. They couldn't
get over this wall; it was just high enough.
Eddie probably couldn't get over. So they knew
they had this chair there to step on and get over
from our talk with Ladder 9.
A. Yeah.
Q. So this chair was there when you --
A. It was already there by the opening.
Q. So that was probably the chair they
used to go through the opening.
A. Right.
Q. That's the last time you saw Larry and
the heavyset --
J. PICARELLO 21
A. Yeah, the last time was right by that
opening. That was it. That's the last time I
saw him. That's the last place I saw Ganci.
Q. Did you see Commissioner Feehan up
there also?
A. No, I didn't see him.
Q. You don't know what Ray Downey looks
like to know if you saw him at all?
A. No.
Some of the faces -- after the
collapse, it was so dark. Even if I did, I
didn't know if they were with me or not.
Q. Right, exactly.
A. That's basically it.
Q. Thank you, John.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: That concludes the
interview. It is now 1547.
File No. 9110242
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MIKE ZECHEWYTZ
Interview Date: December 5, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
M. ZECHEWYTZ
CHIEF LAKIOTES: Today is December 5th,
2001. The time is approximately 1820. My name is
Battalion Chief Art Lakiotes, Safety Command, New York
City Fire Department. I'm conducting an interview
with --
FIREFIGHTER ZECHEWYTZ: Michael Zechewytz,
engine 278, firefighter.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: This is in regard to the
events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Mike, do me a favor and just tell me in your
own words from probably the time you started responding
with the company to the events that unfolded for you
that day.
A. Well, I remember we were drinking coffee in
the kitchen and we saw on the news breaking story on
Channel 5 that a plane just hit. I remember I was
right by the TV set and I said, "That must have been a
drunk pilot." I mean, it was clear outside. So we
were like, "Wow, the guy must have had a few last night
or something."
So then Roger Jackson and myself went out to
the front to see the smoke. If you were in front of
the firehouse and you looked over to the right, you saw
the smoke. Then he called and he goes, "Zech." That's
M. ZECHEWYTZ
my nickname. He goes, "Zech, look," and we saw the
other plane going from left to right with its nose
down.
So then we ran back in the kitchen, and then
maybe 30 seconds later the news said that a bomb went
off in the second building. But then they saw in slow
motion it was a plane. So that was the plane that we
saw go into it. Then the 4 responded, I forget what
alarm, maybe third alarm, and then we went on the fifth
alarm.
Then we went to the staging area right by the
tunnel. 228 went through the tunnel and they couldn't
make contact with them for a while. Then there was a
collapse. Someone said it might be a collapse on the
south side of the tunnel. Then we didn't hear from
them and then later on they went through. There must
have been a lot of debris in there.
Q. Let me ask you a question before we go any
further. Were you there before or after the collapses?
A. We saw the collapse.
Q. You weren't there?
A. We were at the tunnel on the Brooklyn side.
Q. And you saw tower 2 go?
A. We saw tower 1.
M. ZECHEWYTZ
Q. That was the second tower to go.
A. All right. No.
Q. The first tower to go was tower 2.
A. Okay. So that's the tower. We saw that from
the Brooklyn side of the tunnel. I was right in front
of the rig. It was me and Vinny Buonocore right in
front of the rig. We were like the first thing out of
our mouths after that was, "Wow, we have firemen just
died." We saw it come down.
Then whatever Chief was there by the tunnel,
they sent us and a couple other companies to the
Brooklyn Bridge. Tower 1, then, I guess was still up.
People were saying like, you know, it's crazy to give
us the assignment to cross.
Then we went over the bridge. The tower was
still up. That was tower 1, I guess, that was still
up.
Q. The north tower.
A. I guess from that time, when we got over the
bridge and where we parked our rig, it went down. But
we didn't hear it. We just saw debris everywhere, but
we didn't know that tower came down yet.
Q. Do you know who the Chief was that gave you
the order to go back?
M. ZECHEWYTZ
A. No, I don't know. I remember his face. I
mean, I could remember like it was yesterday. No, I
don't remember.
Like I said, we parked the rig on I forget
exactly what street and we went to the West Side
Highway. We were there for a while. Then, I guess,
after an hour or two, they sent us to the Milennium
Hotel with roll-ups. We went to the fourth floor
there, hooked up to a standpipe.
Then another Chief -- I don't want to say the
wrong name. I'm not sure exactly who. It might be
Jensen, if he was there with us. We went there with a
truck company, another engine company. We were there
for at least an hour, an hour and 15 minutes, and then
they said that someone gave a Mayday in the hallway up
the stairwell that the Milennium Hotel might come
down. So we just ran out of there. We left our folds
right on the stairs. We left the hose on the standpipe
and all our stuff.
Q. That's about it?
A. Yes. After that we were pretty much just
going from -- we were helping dump trucks, we were
doing like little searches, engine searches, moving
debris.
M. ZECHEWYTZ
Q. You said Roger was with you?
A. No. Vinny Buonocore, McLaughlin, John
McLaughlin -- no, Jimmy McLaughlin. I'm sorry. Richie
Vetland, Captain Henricksen. The only companies I
remember with us at the staging area, I can remember
280 being there because I have a friend that was
working that day. 102 truck was there. They walked
through the tunnel. I knew a guy from there, Jimmy
McCutcheon.
Q. Jimmy McCutcheon?
A. Yes. He actually walked through the tunnel.
Q. I hope he has a brother on the job. There's
a Lieutenant in 122.
A. Oh, yeah?
Q. Yes. Somebody said they saw him there,
Lieutenant McCutchan. Did you say 280?
A. 280 was with us at the staging area, 102
truck, 114 truck.
Q. 114 got through.
A. Yes, they got through. I don't know how they
got through and we didn't.
Q. Because Dennis Oberg was standing next to me
when the buildings came down.
A. Yes.
M. ZECHEWYTZ
Q. I know 114 got through.
A. Because I remember seeing them. We had
pulled up. They went in front of us at the staging
area and that was it. We didn't see them anymore. But
we saw the tower come down from the tunnel, and then,
like I said, the first tower, which is the second tower
that went down, we didn't see come down. I saw it up
all the way until we got over the bridge.
Q. Very good.
A. That's all. I wish I could help you a little
more.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: No, that's fine. This
concludes the interview at 1825.
</XMP></BODYx/HTML>
File No. 9110243
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER TROY OWENS
Interview Date: December 5, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
T. OWENS ;
CHIEF LAKIOTES: Today's date is
December 5th, 2001. The time is
approximately 1705. I am Chief Art
Lakiotes, Safety Command of the N.Y.C. Fire
Department. I am conducting an interview
with --
FIREFIGHTER OWENS: Firefighter Troy
Owens, Engine 279. That day I was working
at Ladder 131.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: This is in regards to
the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Troy, if you would, just take me
through your day during the event, after the
event, where you went and so on and so forth.
A. We responded on the fifth alarm or
whatever it was at the time, and we were told to
report to the staging area on the Brooklyn side
of the Battery Tunnel. We were standing there
when we were watching one building burn. The
second plane hit while we were standing there.
At that time we were deployed into
Manhattan. We were stuck in the tunnel for a
little while. We finally made it through. It
was a disaster area, of course. Everything was
T. OWENS 3
crazy. We took a position on the west side of
West Street.
Q. If it will help you, here's a map.
A. I know exactly. We had to get right
from underneath everything. There was too much
shit coming down. We were standing on the other
side of West Street. We were watching them jump
and all of that there.
Then we received orders to proceed into
building two via the World Trade Center Marriott
Hotel. That's where we were. When we first
arrived there, we didn't have any other specific
orders. The lieutenant told us to take a minute,
told us to take a breather.
We didn't have specific orders at the
time. The first captain or lieutenant said,
"Listen, guys, take your gear off. Take a
breather, take a minute." What I chose to do is
I went to say hello to someone I hadn't seen in a
long time --
Q. Would you tell us who it was?
A. Yes. I went to say hello to Lieutenant
Gregory McLetchie from Ladder 122. I saw another
gentleman from proby school. I don't remember
T. OWENS 4
his name.
Q. Do you know what unit he was with at
the time?
A. Lieutenant --
Q. No, the one from proby school.
A. I don't remember what unit he was in.
Also I came back to the company and
said, "Lou, I'm going to the bathroom." I went
to drink water and wanted to urinate. I didn't
want to get stuck up there and have to be
thirsty. I went to the bathroom. As soon as I
came back, they said, "Troy, we're ready." I saw
we had our orders, to proceed to whatever
staircase, whatever.
At that time I just had my bunker pants
on. I put my bunker coat on. Right after I put
my bunker coat on, I went to grab my mask. I
noticed one of the guys from the company said,
"Look, they're all running."
I heard rumbling. There was a window
there. I looked outside. I saw a black quick
shadow come to the building. I thought it was
another plane hitting. I just heard rumbling,
and everything just came down.
T. OWENS 5
I just had to turn -- they said, "Get
down, get down." I heard someone say get down,
and that's what I did. I dropped. My helmet was
buried. I couldn't get it. I had my hand on the
strap to my mask. As everything was coming down,
I was getting blasted by the dust, the debris. I
was getting blown away, tossed around and
whatnot .
I turned the mask on, and I tried to
open it up and it wouldn't work. So I just
stayed there until everything finally came down.
I didn't get hit. I didn't get hit with
anything, but I was choking on that shit.
So at the time I was like, wow,
everything had gone black. I had my big light
on. I've got my big flashlight on. After
everything eventually came down and I was still
alive, at that time I just wanted to know where
was the way out.
There was a gentleman; I think he
worked in the hotel. Maybe he was a fire safety
director or something. I said, "Where was the
way out?" He pointed in that direction. I went
out towards the way out to look. The ground was
T. OWENS 6
missing in some of the parts of -- in part of the
lobby was like a bar area over there somewhere.
It kind of went out a little bit.
At that point I said, okay, let me go
see what's up with Ladder 131. I went back with
131. The first person I found was Lieutenant
Woods. He was okay. He was okay. He was badly
shaken up like I was.
The rest of the guys, we all came out.
I think there was a door they were forcing to.
Eventually we all got out. But I thought
everybody was with us. Mattie Castrogiovanni, we
didn't know where he was. From what I
understand, somebody took him and put him in an
ambulance and they took him away because his eyes
got blasted pretty bad. We had communication
with him at first, but then we lost him. So we
didn't know where he was.
When we got out, we kept calling, kept
calling. While we were trying to find out where
he was, we helped pull this guy out from under an
ambulance. I think lieutenant said pair up and
help people. I paired up with Keith Kaiser.
We helped get this guy out from under
T. OWENS 7
an ambulance. He was a fireman. I don't know
who he was. Hopefully he's all right. The other
guys helped this photographer.
What we did is we went across West
Street. There was a store over there. I know we
all needed to drink something or get the stuff
out of our eyes. So we got into the store. The
first thing I did was go straight to the back
where the sink was. When I went there to cut the
water on, they said, "The other building's coming
down." The other building came down. All the
guys that were there that were outside the deli,
they dove in the deli. I dropped behind the
counter. That's how we survived the second
collapse.
After that the lieutenant said, "Look,
we just survived two collapses. Let's get the
fuck out of here." So we kind of got away from
the area. At that time we -- during the second
collapse, we kind of lost what's his name? Craig
Gutkes? He got disconnected from us. We were
still communicating with him.
So we went south a little bit. He met
us there further down. There was another
T. OWENS 8
building there, and I went inside this building
to try to wash some of the stuff off my face and
go to the bathroom. While I was in the building,
I wanted to make a phone call also. While I was
on the phone, they said you have to get out of
the building because the building is going to
blow, there's a gas leak.
At that time everybody in the vicinity,
in that immediate vicinity, they made us all get
on boats and they took us over to Jersey and that
was it. We got on, me, Keith Kaiser and Mark
Ruppert. We all got on together. We stayed
together the whole time.
They took us to the decon units over by
the triages over there. We tried to hook up with
the lieutenant and Greg Gutkes was together. We
tried to found out where they were. We spent a
long time trying to find out where they were. We
didn't want to go to any hospital until we knew
where they were. Then eventually we found they
were all right, because a gentleman from the
house, Harry, he was helping us out, Harry
(inaudible) .
Q. (Inaudible.)
T. OWENS 9
A. Yeah. He was helping us out. We knew
everybody was okay. It was just Mattie, we
didn't know what the hell was up with Mattie.
Eventually we wound up in the hospital.
I forgot the name of the hospital.
Q. New Jersey? It's okay.
A. Actually the hospital was in I think
Staten Island.
Q. That's what I'm saying, Staten Island,
whatever. St. Vincent's or something like that.
A. I can't remember. They sent me a
letter with the pictures that they took of us.
They were real nice people. They took real good
care of us. They washed out my eyes. My eyes
got washed out three times. I still had a hard
time. I was still choking on this stuff. My
chest was burning and whatnot.
That was the end of it for us that day,
for me.
Q. How many guys did you see in the lobby
when you were in the lobby? 50? 60? 100?
More?
A. There were a lot of guys going in with
rollups. We were one of the last companies to go
T. OWENS 10
in the building. I believe we were -- when we
first walked in the Marriott World Trade Center
Hotel, if I remember correctly, there's a bar
that you ran into first.
Q. I think it's called the Tall Ships bar
or something like that.
A. Okay. Then right after you get to the
bar, then you actually reach the lobby, the hotel
lobby. We were like the last ones, because I
remember there was this wall.
When I found out the building was
dropping, I dove right on this side of this wall.
I tried to get close to something. Instead of
being out in the open, I was kind of like hugging
the wall. The other guys were right on the other
side of the wall. There was a bunch of guys in
there. The hallway, it was a long hallway, a
long lobby.
From what I understand, everything
behind that -- if you were behind the revolving
doors, it would be curtains. From what I
understand, everything behind the revolving
doors -- I believe not even that far. I don't
know how many people made it out. I don't think
T. OWENS 11
it was too many. There were a lot of guys in the
lobby. I can't really tell you a number because
I know it was a deep lobby.
Q. What was that lieutenant's name from
122?
A. Lieutenant McLetchie.
Q. McLetchie?
A. Yeah, Lieutenant McLetchie, 122.
Q. So basically you were in the lobby
close to the Liberty Street side.
A. Yeah. Actually they found my helmet.
Q. Did they?
A. The front piece only, just the front
piece.
Q. You don't know what happened after
tower one came down.
A. When tower one came down, we were on
the other side --
Q. Yeah, I know. You left your helmet in
the lobby of the hotel; right?
A. Yeah.
Q. That's what I'm saying. So we don't
know what happened to the lobby after tower one
came down.
T. OWENS 12
A. The lobby itself?
Q. Yeah, after all the --
A. I have it up in my locker. The front
piece, it's just the front piece of the helmet
only, the leather part. It has a tag on it that
says deceased.
Q. All right.
A. It said on Liberty Street.
Q. Very good.
A. It had a 9 on it, a 9. My badge number
is the only one with Engine 279 on it because 279
is missing so maybe that's why they put
"deceased" on it. I was working with 131.
Q. Okay. Sure. That's possible.
A. Mine was the only one from 279 that
started with a 9, so it had to be mine.
Q. The guys from 279 didn't do too well.
So except for the lieutenant -- you
really don't remember the name of the proby that
you saw?
A. A Latin guy. I didn't see his name on
the list of deceased. I would like to hear his
story.
Q. What about his picture? I'm sure we
T. OWENS 13
have it .
A. I talked to Lieutenant McLetchie. He
said that he just grabbed a column and held on.
What held him up is he was waiting for one of
their men in the bathroom. That held them up.
After everything came down, I remember him saying
he was trying to cut a lieutenant out, some
lieutenant .
Q. I'll get to talk to him.
A. Their tool failed, and they went on to
get another one. When they went to get another
tool, the other building came down. So that's
what he told me. I thought he was missing,
actually. I got his name mixed up with someone
else. But he's okay. I talked to him on the
phone. They were a little further in the
building than we were.
Q. I guess that's it. I want to thank
you.
CHIEF LAKIOTES: This concludes the
interview. It is approximately 1725.
Thank you, Troy.
File No. 9110245
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL HAZEL
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
M. HAZEL
CHIEF KING: Today's date is December 6,
2001. The time is 1625 hours. This is Battalion Chief
Stephen King with the Safety Battalion of FDNY. I am
conducting an interview with Firefighter Michael Hazel
from Engine 224. The interview is regarding the events
of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Mike, you can start any time you're ready.
A. Okay. That morning I was awaiting relief,
believe it or not, and we were watching TV in the
kitchen and we saw the news saying that the tower was
hit, the first tower was hit.
So we had a couple of guys here. One guy was
going off duty. The rest were all working. Another
guy just came back from a detail. I said to them,
"Don't go anywhere because we're going to be going to
the World Trade Center, " because we always respond to
that box and you could see from the TV that it was a
substantial fire and I knew we'd be going.
You couldn't tell at that point it was a
jet. I thought originally it was a publicity stunt,
especially after that guy with the parachute who got
caught in the Statue of Liberty. I figured it was just
some guy who was trying to fly between the towers and
got lost because it really didn't look like that big of
M. HAZEL
a hole. So a few minutes later we responded. We were
sent a ticket and we responded, but to the Battery
Tunnel, to the staging area. We didn't go directly to
the Trade Center.
On the way to the Battery Tunnel, we're
driving along Columbia Street and I'm sitting across
from the proby, and as we're talking and I'm preparing
him for the events, what to expect at this job we're
going to go to, he just says to me, "Look at this
dummy. He's flying underneath the smoke instead of
over it." With that I turned to my right and looked at
the Twin Towers and I saw the second jet hit. So he
started screaming and I just said to him, "We're in big
trouble. This is an attack. We're being attacked."
So we thought we were going to get sent right
to the Trade Center, but we went to the Battery Tunnel
and, obviously, everybody else who was there saw the
second plane hit, so no one was sitting in their rig
just waiting to go. We all jumped out and ran over to
each other and started talking, like this isn't good,
we're in trouble here, there's a lot of fire, there's a
lot of people, and we couldn't understand why we
weren't getting called yet.
A couple of the chauffeurs who got out of
M. HAZEL
their rigs to mingle turned up their radios, so it was
like in stereo. All the rigs just blared, "Anybody at
the Battery Tunnel." They started rattling off the
companies. "Respond." So we all wished each other
luck and we jumped in our rigs and we went through the
tunnel. We got stuck in the tunnel for a while,
probably a good ten minutes, but it seemed like
forever, where it just wasn't moving at all, and we
pretty much all got the feeling that it was a setup,
that we were meant to get stuck in there.
But we eventually got through the tunnel, and
at first we started seeing bits and pieces, when we
turned up West Street, of the plane and of what turned
out to be body parts. But the closer we got, the
bigger the parts got, the plane parts and the body
parts, and it finally got to the point where I was
facing forward and I told the proby, who was facing the
rear, not to look anymore because I told him the things
he was going to see he'd rather not see and that he
would never be able to get it out of his head if he did
see them.
At that point, Smitty was driving. That's
when he started trying to snake his way up West
Street. There was a lot of debris in the street and I
M. HAZEL
remember yelling to the Lieutenant to keep going
because stuff was still landing all around us. We just
passed a compact car where the engine was running and
the door was open, which looked to me like the driver
had escaped, but from the back seat to the trunk was
crushed by a jet engine. I said to the proby, "There
goes the luckiest guy in the world right there." So we
went past that and we saw a couple of more gruesome
scenes, and at that point I just made sure that we
weren't going to pull over because it was just raining
down too much debris.
We started going up West Street. I believe
that's when Smitty ran over the part of the plane, but
he did that to avoid the bodies because there were
obviously bodies in the street that were hit by either
apparatus or cars or something and it wasn't a pretty
picture. Like Smitty said, it's just very hard to
intentionally run over a body, even if you know they're
dead. So we tried to go around them as best as
possible. I didn't hear him hit the debris in the
street. The guys on the other side said they heard it.
Anyway, we pulled up. We got a hydrant. We
all jumped off and the Lieutenant reminded everybody to
take their extra cylinder. I told the Lieutenant that
M. HAZEL
maybe we should help Smitty hook up because we'd
probably need water more importantly than anything
else. They had a lot of people there already. The
hose I didn't think was going to be that important as
much as water would be.
So we helped him hook up, and an officer came
over from the command post. I thought it was a Chief.
Somebody told me it was a Lieutenant. I'm not sure who
it was. He told us to move. He said to get off the
hydrant and move further up north to another hydrant so
that rigs coming up from behind us would be able to
form a chain rather than have them try to get around us
because there wasn't much room to get through West
Street. So we had to disconnect the rig.
We got back on the rig. We moved up to the
next hydrant. Again we helped Smitty hook up and
grabbed our roll-ups and our cylinders, and as we were
turning to walk away, one of the guys just nonchalantly
said, "Hey, Smitty, that's you," and he pointed to the
ground. I didn't know what he meant. I looked down
and it was transmission fluid. So I said, "What are
you talking about?" He said, "That's from when he hit
the plane. We must have a leak." So I stopped him and
I said, "We can't leave him here like this because, if
M. HAZEL
he runs out of transmission fluid, he's not going to be
able to pump and he's going to be useless." So I said,
"Let's see if we can help him."
So I called to one of the other guys, Richie
Saulle, and I asked him to get the clay, the gunk that
we use to fix gas tanks. I asked him to get it and see
if he could go under there and try and patch this
hole. So then we got the gunk and we went under the
rig and it was a pinhole. It wasn't that much. We
patched it up and we waited a while to see if it was
going to stay. It looked like it was going to hold.
So we got out from under the rig and we got
our roll-ups and our cylinders and we walked about
maybe ten yards, 15 yards, and the tower started to
come down. At first it looked to me like just the top
of the tower, like maybe the top 15 floors, like the
skin of the building was just peeling off and coming
down. We pretty much all just stood there in
disbelief, and what I did at that point was I told all
the guys I was with to put their masks on, their face
piece, because I saw the dust coming and I said, "Who
knows how much we're going to get hit with? We might
as well put our masks on." I told Smitty and this
other guy, Bailey, who was just buffing the job, to get
M. HAZEL
their masks on or to hightail it.
So we all put our face pieces on and we
pretty much got hit with a lot more than we expected,
so we tried to find refuge behind cars or up against
fences or whatever we could. I got down on the ground
and a civilian -- I don't remember now if he bumped
into me or if he just was calling out, but I grabbed
him and I started sharing my face piece with him,
sharing the mask, and then you just started hearing
people screaming and yelling because they started
getting engulfed in the cloud and it started getting
darker and darker. Another guy was coming running by
crying, screaming. I called out to him. He came
over. The two of those guys were sharing my mask now.
After a little while, a third guy starts coming up and
he was screaming and we grabbed him, and then I had all
three guys sharing my mask. So I was trying to calm
them down because one guy was panicking. He was pretty
upset. He was getting hysterical.
CHIEF KING: We're going to stop the tape for
a minute. It's 1635 hours.
(Pause. )
CHIEF KING: It's 1636 hours. We're going to
restart the tape. Go ahead, Mike.
M. HAZEL
A. So the one guy was getting pretty
hysterical. The other two guys were okay. They pretty
much took their hits of the air and they gave it back
to me when I asked. But the third guy kept grabbing it
and screaming and yelling. So I told him, I said,
"Listen, you keep it up, I'm not going to give you any
more and then you're going to pass out and I'm going to
leave you here." So he pretty much calmed down after
that. The bottom line is, I had my hood over my face,
but they pretty much used up all my air. When it
finally started to lift, the first guy who was pretty
calm said thanks a lot and took off. The other two
guys were a little more out of it.
We regrouped and tried to go a little up
north to try and find a place where we could clear our
eyes and throats and noses so we could breathe better.
At that point I called out to all of the other guys in
the company. I wanted to make sure that we didn't lose
Smitty or Bailey because they didn't have any masks and
I knew it got pretty nasty and, if they didn't run,
they were going to need help.
So we couldn't find them originally. We got
together, all of us regrouped, and we stood there for a
while because we had heard reports now that the tower
10
M. HAZEL
came down and we didn't believe it. We just thought it
was the top couple of floors. It was still too dusty
and too dark to see. So we just stood there watching
and waiting to see if it cleared and we could tell what
was going on. At that point, on the radio, we heard a
lot of Maydays and a lot of yelling and who's trapped
and who' s hurt .
It didn't seem like that long of a period of
time, but by the time we regrouped and got our act
together and we were going to start heading back down,
that's when the second tower started coming down. When
that tower started coming down, we knew from the first
one, which, actually, the first collapse was blocked by
the north tower from us. It sort of shielded us a
little. When I looked up and I saw the antenna on the
second tower coming straight, just like falling
straight into the building, I knew it was coming down,
and we pretty much just turned and started to run.
As we were running, it overtook us, the
impact. A couple of guys went flying. We went diving
under cars and up against fences. We started getting
pelted with stuff. Nothing substantial, though. It
turned pitch black. You couldn't see anything, but you
could still hear the screaming again and the yelling.
11
M. HAZEL
Pretty much the radio went dead after that, the second
tower. We didn't hear anybody screaming for help. It
was just like an eerie silence. We knew that it was
really bad .
At that point, I put my face piece on and my
cylinder ran out. So I had the proby with me, who I
had told to stick with me, and we ducked down behind a
fence and I told him, I said, "Joe, you're going to
have to remain calm here because you're going to have
to change my cylinder." He said, "No problem," and he
took my spare cylinder and changed it without a
problem.
Then two guys behind us that were following
the fence actually walked right into us and then a cop
came by. I thought he was a transit cop. I'm not even
sure now. We all stuck together and we started moving
north up along the side of the fence because we still
couldn't see anything. At that point, I think the four
of us got together and we waited for it at least to
clear up a little bit so we could see.
Most of the guys now were pretty bad as far
as the dust and the breathing, and it seemed like a
godsend. We were walking up West Street and a guy in a
Poland Spring truck pulled over. I said to myself,
12
M. HAZEL
"I'm going to go over there and I'm going to grab some
water. I don't care if this guy likes it or not." But
we couldn't even blink. I told the guys to sit down,
and as I ran over towards the truck, the guy got out of
his truck and he just started opening up all the gates
on the truck and started throwing us water. So we just
took bottles and we started rinsing everybody's eyes
out. By the time we got cleaned up, there were guys
coming up by the hundreds, walking up the block and
just needing to be rinsed and cleaned.
We got our act together. We regrouped and
the Lieutenant and one of the other guys went down
south again to see if we could find anybody left
because at this point we didn't know what was going on
and we wanted to see if we could find a command post or
somebody down there that could tell us what to do. But
we were northwest of the hotel and all the debris, it
was like a roadblock. There was no way to get in
there. That whole side of the West Side Highway was
just pretty much just demolished. That's where the
walkways were.
We went down there and there were numerous
rigs burning, cars burning. It looked like something
out of a war movie. There was really nothing to do. I
13
M. HAZEL
mean, all the rigs that were crushed and with all the
debris in the street, we couldn't even get to the World
Trade Center complex.
That was about it. That's pretty much it.
After the second tower collapsed, we tried to get
together and stick together. We found Smitty. We
never found Bailey, but it turned out, we found out
later on, that he ran up to 20 truck and made a few
phone calls. But, unfortunately, when they asked where
we were, he said he didn't know, that we were lost. So
that didn't work out too well, except for the fact that
at least the guys that were here knew not to tell
anybody who called what he said. But that's about it.
The only thing I left out was, in between the
two towers collapsing, there were a couple of firemen
who were walking up that were bleeding pretty badly
from the head, and we stopped them. They didn't want
to stop. They were lost. They didn't know what they
were doing. They were sort of out of it. So we had to
like grab them and restrain them and hold them by the
rig while we patched up their injuries on their heads.
An ambulance was coming down the block and I
pulled them over and I said, "These two guys are hurt
pretty bad. You've got to take them." They said, "All
14
M. HAZEL
right. We'll pull up and you can throw them in the
back." I said, "Okay." So they drove to the back of
the rig and I went behind the rig to grab these two
guys and their heads were being bandaged by the proby
and by Saulle, and the ambulance just took off. They
kept going. So, when they kept going, I was like, you
know, well, whatever. But anyway, they kept going, and
that was only a few minutes before the second tower
collapsed. So I don't know what became of them.
But most of the guys that were walking up the
block after us were obviously closer to the building
than us and they were injured. A lot of them were
bleeding. Most of them were dazed and didn't even know
where they were. That's why, when that water truck
pulled over, that was really good because people
couldn't breathe. The civilians didn't even realize,
you know, when you can't breathe and when you've got
dirt in your eyes, I guess, for some reason, we're a
little more used to that than civilians are, but these
civilians were panicking, and you know any time people
are yelling and screaming and crying, it just adds more
stress to the situation. So when this truck pulled
over, we pulled out a couple of the five-gallon barrels
of water, put them on like a ledge and just pulled the
15
M. HAZEL
cap off, and there were people sitting underneath them
just like a shower and it helped a lot of people. That
calmed them down a lot anyway.
CHIEF KING: Okay, Mike. Thank you. The
time is 1645 hours and we've concluded the interview.
File No. 9110246
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER THOMAS SMITH
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
T. SMITH 2
CHIEF KING: Today's date is December
6th, 2001. The time is 1355 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Steven King of the Safety
Battalion of the Fire Department of the City
of New York. I am conducting an interview
with the following individual, Firefighter
Thomas Smith from Engine 224. This
interview is regarding events which occurred
on September 11th, 2001.
Q. Tom, you can start whenever you want.
A. My story starts with, in the morning
sitting having coffee at the firehouse table.
Somebody says, "Turn on Channel 1. A plane
crashed into the Trade Center." The guys getting
off the night tour, day tour, we had about seven
to eight guys in the kitchen. The young guys
were saying, "Look at that, look at that."
So my first thought was somebody flew a
small Cessna or some plane and flew into the
tower. We were sitting there, and the guys were
like, "Wow. " I said, "You know what, we may go
on that, " because us being so close to the
Battery Tunnel and we went there in ' 93 to the
towers .
T. SMITH 3
Two minutes later, tones go off, "224
respond to Brooklyn Battery Tunnel at the staging
area." The plane crashed at 8:48. We got that
tone probably at about 5 to 9, 8:55.
So now there were guys hanging over
from the night tour, and it was like, all right,
ba-ba-ba, things were going on. Who's jumping on
the rig? Who's the day tour? Who's taking the
ride? PS, we start responding towards the
Battery Tunnel.
En route to the tunnel, making a left
out of quarters on Hicks, a left on Joralemon and
another left on Furman heading towards the
Battery Tunnel, there's a wide open view at the
foot of Atlantic Avenue that shows the Manhattan
skyline .
As I'm making the turn heading towards
Columbia Street which leads into the tunnel, the
proby on the right side of the rig yells out,
"Another one hit the tower." I'm driving and I'm
looking, I'm looking. I didn't see the crash,
but I could see the flame, the orange.
Now we get to the tunnel . Now, the
whole time we're not even thinking when we're
T. SMITH 4
responding that it was a terrorist thing. En
route to the tunnel, the second plane hitting, we
meet at the tunnel. We were there with about six
other companies. We're staging and, hey, how you
doing, how you do, what's going on. Do you see
what's going on? What are we going to do, blah,
blah, blah.
With that they're trying to get
Brooklyn-bound traffic out of the tunnel. It was
chaotic at the toll plaza there. 224 and 210, we
were on like a Rapelye Street, which is a side
street leading into the tunnel. 101 was there
already. Two or three other companies, this way,
that way, at all different intersections leading
into the toll plaza. Also we got word it had to
be 9:08, 9:10 — I'd say about 9:10, all right,
let's go, respond to the towers. So we went
through there, six or seven companies, I think it
was; I'm not sure. If I see the ticket.
So we proceeded to go through, and it
wasn't a straight run. We went and we had to
stop because they had Port Authority guys in the
tunnel, whatever. They still had cars inside.
So it was go and stop. Cars would come along,
T. SMITH 5
go, stop, which is normally a two- to
three-minute ride through the tunnel. It seemed
like 20 minutes we were in that tunnel.
Q. It was long?
A. It was long, probably about ten
minutes .
If the second plane hit 9:06, we were
at the staging area there probably about three
minutes. So by the time we came out of the
tunnel on the Manhattan side, it had to be 9:20,
9:25.
When we came out of the tunnel, I came
out of the tunnel, went to West Street, made a
right. There were rigs backed up, backed up. We
proceeded up to the front of tower one where they
had a lieutenant there. I don't have his name.
The trucks were getting orders, and the engines
were getting orders .
The trucks were just -- they were
saying everybody get as far left as you can
because they want a passageway for rigs to get
in. Me being an engine, my officer got orders
from the lieutenant in the street, "Tell your
chauffeur get as far left as he can. There's
T. SMITH 6
hydrants on West Street. Get a water supply.
You're going to be relayed, you're going to
feed," ba-ba-ba, the whole thing.
So we went as far left as we can, and
there were rigs coming in, coming in all
different angles and guys just coming up the rig.
So I pulled up to my hydrant. My members get
off, and we test the hydrant. We stretch our 35
foot yellow hose. We're hooked up to the
hydrant .
One of the brothers in my firehouse
turned to me and said, "Smitty, do you see that
puddle of trannie fluid?" I said --
If I can go back a little bit. When we
came out of the tunnel when we were heading on
West Street, there was all debris in the street:
airplane debris, building debris, body debris.
So as we were going heading towards to get our
orders at the tower, we were serpentining around
body parts, airplane parts, building material.
It was just chaotic.
So in the midst of me doing that, I
hooked up to my hydrant, got my orders. My
brother, one of the other firemen, noticed that I
T. SMITH 7
punctured my trannie pan. We had a 5 by 5 circle
of pink trannie fluid in the street, and I'm
saying to myself as the ECC that I'm going to be
fed, I'm going to be supplying, my rig cannot
break down. Plus I had my back to the tower.
So I don't know what made me do it, but
I repositioned my rig. I think it was Murray
Street where all the rigs were when I got there.
So there was an opening. I went a half a block,
and there was a cross street. I think it was
Murray. I turned my rig around, and faced the
towers where I was looking at my pump panel and
looking at the towers .
So this whole thing took maybe seven to
ten minutes. Here it is probably a quarter to
10, 20 to 10. I'm trying to replay the time in
my mind, but it's very foggy. It might be 2
minutes; it might have been 12 minutes. But we
did the maneuver with the rig. I don't know what
made me do it, but personally I just said -- the
guys helped me out, we repositioned, came back
around, hooked back up.
Me and another fireman proceeded to get
our putty out that we putty for gas leaks and
T. SMITH 8
everything on the highway. We took a piece of a
chock. We chocked it up. The hole was probably
a one by two hole. It was a nice gash.
Obviously I ran over some airplane debris,
propeller or whatever, a rough edge, blunt edge,
gouged my pan.
So anyway, we proceeded to plug it. It
was a steady plug coming out. When we finished
probably three to five minutes -- because the
fluid was hot, so it was tough. We had to plug,
step back, wipe off. We were getting it down our
arms. PS, about five minutes we plugged it to a
slow leak.
Our guys, who had their rollups and
everything ready to go in, I would say,
approximate now, I would say probably quarter to
10, 10 to 10, and our guys -- "Smitty, you okay?
You all set?" "Yeah, I'm all set. I'm all
hooked up. I'm all right."
This whole time we're watching people
from probably 95 to 105 come out of the first
tower, just coming every three to five seconds.
There's another one, there's another one.
I'm taking deep breaths in the street.
T. SMITH i
I'm almost getting sick. All I had was a cup of
coffee in me. I just couldn't believe what was
going on. It was sickening. There were so many
urgents and maydays and chaotic radio
transmissions .
Another person coming out, a couple
holding hands coming out, splashing on the
ground. I could see them coming down
three-quarters of the way, but we couldn't see
the splash.
Our guys are all set. They start
moving in. I'm standing there in a golf shirt
and shorts. The tower comes down. My guys just
rolled up in a ball, ran, rolled up in a ball.
They were all donned up in gear.
I, seeing this coming, ran and I had to
jump over two parked cars. I ran two, three
blocks, myself, EMS and other units that were
still there in the street trying to get set. So
I jumped over two parked cars. I ran two blocks.
So two blocks after Murray, I'm not sure what
street it is. But there were cars parked on the
side, and I just bailed over these cars, rolled
T. SMITH 10
up in a ball and just let the first cloud blow me
over .
So after I regrouped, I hacked up a
little bit more, because I had all that stuff in
my throat, my eyes. EMS guys came over to me and
gave me rinse for the eyes. I was taking water.
I was a little disoriented, but I was fine.
The only thing I wanted to know is how
my guys were, because I knew they were there.
But me being in non-detective gear, I just did
the 400 yard dash down West Street. I was a
little shaken up.
So after I was tended to, eye rinse and
washing out my throat, I proceeded to find my
members, and we all embraced in the middle of
West Street: Are you all right? Are you okay?
Good, good.
One of the guys that was off duty, he
was with me when we ran. He didn't have a mask,
so he stayed with me. He never came back to the
pack. So I ran another block to see if he was
all right, couldn't find him, met up with the
guys again. Everybody okay?
With that, guys that were on the outer
T. SMITH 11
part of the collapse were coming out. I took out
first aid stuff, put it on the back step of the
rig. The rig was just whited out, glass taken
out, just whited out everything, smoke, debris.
I mean, just debris, dust.
So we took our medical EMS stuff out,
put it on the back step. There were guys on the
outer part of the debris, guys coming out with
glass hanging out of their forehead, guys
couldn't see, their eyes were caked, they
couldn't breathe because they had no breathing
apparatus on, they got caught up in the ball.
We were just tending to ourselves,
making sure everybody was okay. What went on was
just bullshit, uncontrollable, this is crazy.
Okay, everybody's okay? You're regrouped. The
officers, everybody all right, ba-ba. Let's make
sure we know what we're doing here. "Smitty, are
you okay?" "Yeah. "
I went to the rig. They proceeded to
head towards the tower again. The second tower
comes down. I still have no protection. I'm
still whited out. The second tower, the cloud of
debris was twice as big as the initial one. I
T. SMITH 12
knew I did this dash before. I knew I ain't
going to die in West Street this way.
I knew there were brothers in there
after the first one. I'm not even thinking about
how I'm doing. I just know that there's
casualties, not only civilians from jumping; I
know there's 45 minutes of respond time worth of
brothers in there.
PS, the second tower comes down. Every
man for himself. I did another 400 yard dash
down. There were so many people coming out of
the scene already, I couldn't get to where I went
to the last time, so I ended up running towards
Stuyvesant High School. There were people
running in there, so I could see them from a
distance. So that's why I made a straight line,
made a left-angled turn, headed towards the
outside lobby of Stuyvesant.
As I was going there, the cloud was on
the back of my head. I could feel it. I just
lunged to the door. As I was lunging, a guy
opened it up and I darted inside. They tended to
me .
I was not shaken up, not upset. I was
T. SMITH 13
out of sorts, out of sync. I didn't know what to
anticipate was going on, what can we do. There
was no radio transmission. I had an empty
feeling in my stomach.
Then I go back to see where my guys are
again, because I'm fine. I knew my guys -- they
had all their gear on. They weren't going to run
as fast as I was. So we went back there and made
sure everybody was okay. There was more crazy
stuff in the street. There was bleeding
civilians coming out. It was hysteria in the
street .
I went to my guys . Everything was
okay. "Smitty, are you all right?" We're
hugging, kissing, making sure we're all here.
All of a sudden I hear on the radio transmission,
"Okay, 224 start water." I'm saying I'm 224. My
officer is right there. I said, "Lou."
Anyway, to make a long story short,
when I repositioned my rig, I was the only rig
facing the towers . Everybody who was coming in
from Brooklyn from the Battery Tunnel were facing
going down West Street. I was facing the towers.
So they obviously moved my rig, repositioned my
T. SMITH 14
rig from West and Murray to two, two and a half
blocks up right on West -- on Vesey right up at
West, and they started to relay from marine unit
to 57 Engine, 84 Engine, feeding me. I was
feeding 33 Engine, who was feeding the manifold.
I went back to my rig it had to be five
minutes after the second tower came down, and I
pumped from about 11:00 a.m. until quarter to 11
that night. My captain finally came on the scene
probably about 12:00, and he took charge and made
sure the guys were okay. I stayed with my rig
until about 10:30, 11:00, quarter to 11 at night.
They backed me off the rig because
seven was in dead jeopardy, so they backed
everybody off and moved us to the rear end of
Vesey Street. We just stood there for a half
hour, 40 minutes, because seven was in imminent
collapse and finally did come down. Then we
proceeded to pump another six hours.
I was told to go back to the firehouse,
jump on the first bus out of there. Relaxed,
because to my group -- I was on a mutual that day
anyway. I was working for somebody. I wasn't
even supposed to work. My group was due in
T. SMITH 15
tomorrow morning at 0900. They wanted me here.
So the captain picked a few guys, they
had to stay. The guys that were here all this
morning, whatever, you guys go home. So instead
of staying in the firehouse, I told him I'm going
to go home.
In the midst of all this, I called my
wife and let her know I was fine, called my
mother and all the family, because it was a
little -- I knew my wife would be a basket case,
because she knows I was there in '93. My one son
is up in college at Marist. He knew I was there
in '93. He knows I'm five minutes away from the
tunnel. They're watching it on TV. I wanted to
make sure that everybody knew I was all right.
My wife said, "I saw Tommy on TV."
They saw me fleeing from the scene. So I went
home that night. I was shaken up. I was fine on
the way home -- when we came back to the
firehouse a little after 11:00, that was the
first time I saw the actual footage on TV. We
stayed there for an hour and a half, and we
talked with the brothers.
Then I proceeded to drive home. I was
T. SMITH 16
fine. A block away from my house, knowing my
wife and my three other kids were waiting for me,
I just lost it. I watched it on TV for another
three hours with my wife and kids and couldn't
sleep, woke up about 7, was here by 8:00, and I
went up there for the 12th and we did our part
digging, digging, digging.
We all came back, but unfortunately the
guys that we met outside the Battery Tunnel that
morning, the six or seven companies that were
there -- 118 went over the Brooklyn Bridge. So
let me remember this. 101 was there. 226 was
there. 279 was there. 35, 38 guys, I don't know
how many extras that were on each rig. 19 or 20
of them didn't come back.
I'm just glad to be here. I don't know
if it's a guilt complex thing, but I'll never
forget. It was the most traumatic day in my
life. I said it ten times in the street, I've
got 18 and a half years on the job. I've got
three sons. They all want to come on the job. I
said it ten times in the street that day, I said,
"This is it. I'll fight fires until I'm 65 years
old, but I can't control it. This is bullshit."
T. SMITH 17
But I was just concerned about guys
that I knew that were unaccounted for. Then the
twelve we met at 211. We went over there. I had
to go on the bus. They had the list of the
unaccounted members. That's just a tough nut to
swallow.
That's my take on that whole morning
from 9:05 to 10:55. I was at the scene -- I was
back there 0900 the next morning. We did 24 on,
24 off. I went there in between a few tours.
I'm just coming back, just took a
vacation, just came back from my vacation. I
came back and I had what they called the WTC
cough. I've been coughing since. Some shit
nights sleeping. I'm just happy to be here,
Chief.
Q. Thanks, Smitty.
CHIEF KING: The time is 1615 hours,
and this interview is complete. Thank you.
File No. 9110247
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD SAULLE
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
R. SAULLE 2
CHIEF KING: Today's date is December
6th, 2001. The time is 1735 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Stephen J. King from Safety
Battalion, FDNY. I'm conducting an
interview with Firefighter Richard Saulle
from Engine Company 224 regarding the events
of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Richard, you can start whenever you
want .
A. To start off with, I was in the shower,
because I have this fetish about taking a shower
before every shift. No matter if it's the first
half or the second half of the 24, I always take
a shower. So unfortunately I was caught in the
shower.
The run came in. Somebody came running
up and said a plane just hit the tower. I said,
"What are you talking about?" I thought they
were trying to get me out of the shower, maybe
flour me or do something hilarious like they
normally do, or somebody will turn the water off.
So here I am, I jump in my shorts, just a regular
work shirt and a pair of shoes, no socks, no
drawers. Here I go, I'm down.
R. SAULLE 3
The tones went off, responded. The
first response was to respond to the World Trade
Center. Then the second one came in as we were
driving out of quarters to report to Rapelye
Street at the base of the Battery Tunnel. That
was the second one that came in.
So we sat there and waited. I believe
we must have waited there until they were
clearing the tunnel out. That was just my logic.
There were cars coming in there. They shut it
down, cleared the tunnel out. We were getting
ready to go through as a convoy with the rest of
the fire engines and fire trucks going through
there.
I was on the chauffeur side of the rig,
back of the chauffeur, like I normally sit when I
ride in the back, unless I have the pipe. A
young kid, Joe Sullivan, said, "Why is this plane
flying through the smoke? Holy shit, he hit the
second tower." I said, "Get the hell out of
here." I stuck my head out the window, and I
looked up and I was amazed what I saw. Both
towers were on fire, and I said we're in a lot of
trouble.
R. SAULLE 4
So we started going through the tunnel,
and I said we're in a lot of trouble. They're
coming with more planes. This is terrorism. My
brain started -- I'm not the sharpest tool in the
shed. Guys will tell you I say that about myself
all the time. I said, they're coming, they're
going to hit the tunnels, they're going to hit
the bridges.
So my mind told me to say good-bye to
everybody. So I reached across and I said to
Hazel, "Good-bye, Mike, it's been nice working
with you for 16 years." "Joe Sullivan, I'm sorry
you're only on the job a couple of months."
I told Bradbury, who was sitting
opposite me, "Kevin, I know we don't like one
another very much, " because me and him are always
bickering, but we still like each other. That
was just our way, we always fight with each
other. I said, "Goodbye, Kev." Then I hit
Smitty in the back of the head and I said,
"Smitty, you still owe me $15. When we get up to
heaven, you better pay me."
This kid, Stu Bailey, was in the middle
of the officer and the chauffeur in the front,
R. SAULLE 5
and I told him the same thing. I said, "You owe
me $5 if you remember too." Then Desimone, I
said, "Desimone, I'll see you at the big one."
Then we proceeded. We got through the
tunnel. What we saw on the floor was amazing.
There were plane parts, cars wrecked, body parts.
It looked like Tales of the Crypt. There were
arms sticking up in the air, and bodies were just
shredded all over the place.
There was a car that we drove by that
the driver's door and the passenger door were
open, and there was a plane motor on the back
half of the car. Two inches more, and both these
guys would have been dead too. That was their
ticket. It was amazing. The car was actually
cut right in half with this motor, right there
back of the front seat. I sat there in
amazement .
Then we drove. Smitty is very
aggressive, just like I am when I drive. We kind
of hit a couple of bumps when we went over. I
don't know what it was. But we got to a point in
front of the two buildings. We looked up, and
the flames were coming and the bodies were coming
R. SAULLE 6
down and splattering on the street like
watermelons.
Chief told us to supply an engine
company in front of the building, find a hydrant.
We started rolling up, and as we rolled up Kevin
says, "Hey, we have a transmission leak." There
was a puddle about two feet around of
transmission fluid.
So we got to the spot, which was
probably another 50 feet up. The first hydrant
that we saw that was open, squeezing through all
kinds of fire trucks that were angled all over
the place. It was just the way everybody just
parks and just gets out and runs.
So I climbed under the rig, and there
was a little cut, about an inch cut, with a
little drip hole coming out from the
transmission. I need a chock. I said, "I need a
chock. Do we have a chock?" I started jamming.
The chock was too big.
So I actually started gnawing at it
with my teeth. I made like a miniature size
toothpick out of this, and I jammed it in there.
It still was dripping. I had to put the goop on
R. SAULLE 7
there, and it worked pretty well.
As I did that, that's when the first
tower fell. As soon as I finished, got up, the
tower came down. We heard somebody saying, "Sh."
That's how the tower sounded coming down,
"Shhhhhh." That's all you heard it, a big shush.
The tower came down.
Hazel said to me, "It's going to get
awfully dark in a minute," and that's exactly
what it did. It just wiped us out. Nobody had
masks on. People were running at us, knocking us
over. It got black. You thought it was night.
It was like night for five minutes.
The first thing that came to mind is,
we all had masks on and everything, but we didn't
don them. It didn't dawn on us until after the
fact. We must have donned them a minute after
this building came down and after the blackness
hit us, because we didn't have time between
people running you over and worrying about Joe
Sullivan, make sure the proby was next to us, and
Bailey, who had nothing but shorts on. He had
dress shorts on.
After the first building came down and
R. SAULLE 8
it finally cleared, it was like somebody blew
pillows up. It was just dust in the air, totally
dust. A couple of guys came walking out of the
pile, truckies, because they had their tools with
them.
One guy had an ax, one guy had a
halogen, and they were actually throwing their
halogen and axes on the floor in frustration and
pissed off. Maybe somebody they knew got wiped
out in front of them, maybe what they saw. One
of them looked like he was scalped because the
whole back of his head was opened up.
So we grabbed the EMS bag and we
started bandaging his head, we washed him out.
We actually washed his head out with booster
water, which was rusty. The rig wasn't hooked up
to a hydrant yet, and that's all we had, whatever
we had, the 500 gallons in the tank.
We started washing his head off because
the stuff was like glue. It was stuck to him.
It didn't come off by just washing it. You had
to rub and wash. So we washed the back of his
head off, and this guy was so -- he was cursing
up a storm. He was worried about what happened
R. SAULLE 9
to him. He didn't even realize that the whole
back of his head was ripped open.
So we were bandaging two guys heads,
and then I guess it must have been a worker came
out of the building. He had just a white shirt
on. He was covered. When he opened up his eyes,
it looked like the Little Rascals in the film
when the guy got covered in stuff and you just
saw the whites of his eyes. He was black. He
couldn't see. So we proceeded to wash him and
rub him down.
Geez, about a couple of minutes after
that, here come the second tower on us. The
first tower was in the way of the second tower.
When the first tower came down, the second tower
was blocking it in our hitting range. I figured
this tower is definitely going to get us, because
now we were closer, and there was no building to
block it. I thought this is it, we're getting
wiped out again.
We ran down the street. We must have
gained 30 yards, 30 yards at most, and it was
like you were running as fast as you can and
somebody shoved you in the back of the head and
R. SAULLE 10
you went head over heels tumbling, because the
force of the wind was incredible. It knocked you
over .
There was a guy actually on his hands
and knees begging to me, "I have no mask. Don't
leave me here. I don't want to die." I slapped
this guy -- I don't know, he's from an engine
company, because he had a black face piece. I
slapped him and I said, "It's dust, stupid. It's
dust. You're not going to die. Relax."
Then when the lieutenant heard me
yelling at the guy and hitting him, he came
crawling over and he said, "I have no mask." I
said, "Listen, we're going to buddy share this
mask. If you try and take it away, I swear to
God I'll knock you on your ass," just like that.
I said, "It's dust. Go like this. That's all
you have to do. Put your coat over your mouth."
These guys, they lost it, totally lost it.
The second tower came down. The same
thing, blackness for longer this time. It was
ten minutes now. Finally the dust cleared, and
it was like panic. People were running. The
whole street was running at us.
R. SAULLE 11
The chief was telling us, "I want
everybody 300 feet back," because we didn't know
if any other buildings, from the shock, or
undermining or anything else if they were going
to weaken any other buildings. He said, "I want
everybody 300 feet down."
We walked all the way down. There was
a couple of fire hydrants that were open. There
were thousands of people giving us bottles of
water. It was amazing. It was like a candy
store in the street: water, drinks, this, that.
Within minutes everybody was getting it. Trucks
were there with food.
I jumped in a puddle because there was
a fire hydrant running, and I washed this stuff
off me, because, like I said, it was glue. I
washed my helmet in the water. I had it all down
my neck. I was breaking it, and everything,
because it was gagging you.
After that it just ended right there
for a while. It was like stagnant for a while.
Then finally we heard the total recall. We heard
the radio, we tried to listen to radio stations.
Then everybody had radios around us. They hit
R. SAULLE 12
this, they hit that, they hit this.
It was like oh, my God, we're in the
middle of like a world war over here. They're
hitting everything. I said they're going to hit
more. I thought they were going to hit another
building by us, because there were a couple
buildings -- as we walked down West Street, there
was a couple of big buildings that we were
getting to.
I said, "Listen, they're going to start
hitting this because this is the next tallest
building. I said this is no good either. You're
better off staying right here." In between this
tall building, in between the towers, this is a
regular low area. I said you're better off
saying over here, and we did. We kind of like
shacked up on the curb. It amazed me.
(Interruption. )
A. So now we're just sitting there it
seemed like an hour, an hour and a half goes by,
and we said what the hell are we doing? So we
started walking back towards what I guess they
gave it the name now ground zero. They might
have given it the next day or whatever.
R. SAULLE 13
We were walking back towards that.
Guys were just sprawled out all over the place.
Who was there, who has a bandage on their head,
who was just sitting there with their mouth open.
It was terrible. It was terrible. You knew guys
were dead. You knew guys were really dead.
It was hours, it must have been. We
were trying to find the rest of the guys, because
the recall was there. So we started walking --
you're walking in this stuff, and it was just
like powder. So we were walking and breathing
this shit all day long. It was like an inch
thick. No matter where you looked, everywhere,
blocks away, it was an inch thick. We're walking
in this rubble, and nobody has a mask on. It
only lasts for 17 minutes.
We walked down Vesey all the way
around -- we actually found where the rig was,
where Smitty was actually pumping water. He was
pumping water for a few hours. Before that we
packed up into a hotel, and they said there were
some sandwiches up on one of the upper floors.
So we ran to get a sandwich and thought of
Smitty. We came around and gave him half a
R. SAULLE 14
sandwich.
Then it creeped up until it must have
been 2:00 in the morning they were ordering guys.
They took a head count. Everybody had to report
in. There were a few guys that were missing, but
we got a head count of our whole company. Then
they said, "Anybody on the day shift, you have to
go home. You're ordered to go home." I said,
"I'm not going home. I'm staying with my rig.
I'm here. I'm not going anywhere."
Our captain was there, Captain Quinn,
at that time. Now he ' s a chief. A few days
later after that they made him a chief, the next
rank up. He ordered us to go home. I said, "I'm
not going home." He said, "I'm telling you, go,
that's it. You've had enough. Go home. See you
tomorrow." He said there's buses on West Street.
I walked for three miles on West
Street. We didn't see a bus at all. There was
like seven of us that were walking back. This
guy Pacheco, who was one of the recall guys, he
had an interview with I guess a Puerto Rican
station. So they wanted him to talk a little
Puerto Rican, and he started talking, and the
R. SAULLE 15
rest of the guys filtered up. They must have
jumped on the bus, and we missed the bus.
So me, Smith and Pacheco were left
behind. We walked for three miles on West Street
until we found nothing. There was a Con Edison
crew there that we actually begged them, "Do us a
favor. We just want to go home. We're tired."
It's now 3:00 in the morning. We're exhausted.
We want to go home.
One of the guys said, "I'll take them
home. I'll take them. Where are you?" I said,
"We're right over the Brooklyn Bridge, right
there on Hicks Street." "That's no problem, but
you have to get deconned first." Ai-yie-yie.
So here we are, stripped naked as a
jaybird. We had to get washed down with ice-cold
water from the fire hydrant. They gave us these
coveralls. They put all our stuff in red bags,
double taped them, gave us all the stuff.
Normally when something like this
happens, they say usually you take everything
that's on you. I had the commissary money on me.
I had $600 in my right pocket. I said they're
not getting that. I ripped open the kneecaps,
R. SAULLE 16
the pads in the bunker pants, and I stuck it in
there. I said they're not getting the money. I
closed it back up. So I had the $600 on my right
knee just about from 3:00 in the morning on. I
said, "Sh, they're going to confiscate all our
money. I put all my money in the kneecap."
They dropped us off and wound up giving
us back our bags. So the first thing I did is I
ripped my bag open and let all this air and shit
out in the firehouse. The whole firehouse was
white from everybody else coming in with their
bags.
I didn't even go home. I just went
upstairs and went to bed, I was so exhausted.
The only thing is my wife was trying to get in
touch with me the whole day. She didn't know. A
couple of guys told her, "I don't know. I don't
know where he is. I don't know." So she was
kind of on pins and needles all day.
I woke up about 9:00 in the morning,
9:30. My eyes usually open up at 6:00. I was so
overexhausted that I got three extra hours in
there.
When I got home, I collapsed on the
R. SAULLE 17
floor like a baby -- I have to say that -- right
on the floor. I don't know why I did it, but my
legs just gave out from under me as soon as I
walked in my door. My wife and my kid was home,
and my puppy. I just got a dog.
The only thing I wanted was to kiss
that dog, kiss my wife. All four of us were on
the floor. My dog was ballistic because he was
licking the three us. He was licking us up,
going from person to person and licking us up.
It was amazing. It was amazing.
My legs buckled. They never did that
before. Actually they probably buckled one other
time. When I had my first son in the hospital, I
got the jitters. But other than that, I usually
hold everything. You know, I cry at funerals.
That's me. I'm a little weak. But the weak
legs, I usually never have them.
That's my story.
CHIEF KING: The time is 1755 hours,
and we're concluding the interview.
File No. 9110248
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER STUART BAILEY
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
S. BAILEY
BATTALION CHIEF KING: Today's date is
December 6, 2001. The time is 1715 hours and this is
Battalion Chief Stephen King, Safety Battalion, FDNY.
I'm conducting an interview with Firefighter Stuart
Bailey from Engine Co. 224, and this interview is
concerning the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Stuart, you can start the interview. Just
tell me what position you had that day.
A. I actually didn't have a position that day.
I was one of the guys that took the run-in being off
duty.
Q. Okay. Tell us your story of what you saw
that day.
A. I worked that night in Ladder 101, the night
before, and got relieved there around 8:20, came here,
got in the house around 8:30. We responded shortly
after that on the first plane, took the run-in, jumped
on a rig with another kid, Joe Sullivan, a proby. We
both took the run-in, both were off duty.
We got to the staging area by the Battery
Tunnel. Before we were going into the tunnel, we were
pretty much just watching it, just watching the first
plane. I believe the second plane hit as we were going
into the tunnel, or possibly as we were going to the
S. BAILEY
staging area, the second plane wound up hitting.
At that time we realized -- the kid in the
back, the proby, said it was a terrorist attack. No
one even realized what actually was going on. We just
thought this plane accidentally hit, until that second
plane hit, then we realized what was actually
happening.
Maybe ten minutes after being at the staging
area, they started moving the rigs into the tunnel. As
we were going into the tunnel, one of the kids that was
actually walking with his gear -- I can't even recall
his name, but there's a big article. The guys know his
name -- actually asked Tommy Smith, who was the
chauffeur, if he could jump on the back of the rig. I
didn't even realize that he jumped on, neither did
Tommy or anyone else, until maybe later on, then we
realized the kid actually did jump on the rig. I
believe he was lost. He was missing.
When we pulled out of the tunnel, the way I
saw it, they couldn't keep us really right there by the
tunnel. We had to proceed past the building because of
all the rigs that were behind us. I guess it would
have delayed them from getting in. We would have been
backing up the tunnel pretty much. So they kind of had
S. BAILEY
everything blocked off and we kind of swerved around
debris from the plane, body parts pretty much
everywhere. That's the first time I've ever seen
anything like that. I'm sure no one did.
Then I believe we went to get a hydrant. We
had a pretty close hydrant to the Trade Center itself,
pretty much almost right out in front, and a Lieutenant
started screaming at Tommy Smith that he wanted the rig
moved. He wanted to stand out front, I guess, to relay
water or to help out with that, getting water over
there. So that guy actually moved Tommy from pretty
much in front of the Trade Center to a little bit
further where we wound up being on Vesey and West
Street, over there.
At that time both buildings were going, both
planes had already hit the building, and we were just
standing there. I looked up, realized the
transmission, our transmission, from riding over the
rubble that was on the ground, the remains of the
plane, ruptured our transmission tank, so transmission
fluid was leaking. Tommy noticed that. So we kind of
spent an extra five minutes or so kind of trying to
plug that in. I guess the guys rendered it useless at
that time, it would have been useless if we didn't do
S. BAILEY
that, you know, just another story out there of how you
get saved. But the guys got off their gear.
Guys all had their gear. I didn't have any
gear on me. I didn't realize. I was just going in for
the ride. I thought it was just a regular fire, a
little bit bigger than regular. But as we're standing
there, the guys had all their tanks on. I didn't have
anything. Tommy didn't have anything. So we were kind
of like maybe even a step back from everyone else,
realizing what's happening, jumpers. You didn't
realize, until you actually looked and saw arms and
legs waving, exactly what was happening, you know, one
after another. There must have been three or four
dozen that jumped out right there while we were
standing there, just in amazement, exactly what
actually was happening.
Then all of a sudden, the further tower, the
south tower, I think it is, the first one that went
down, the south tower went down. We really didn't
realize that it was actually the whole building going
down. It looked like just maybe a side or something
because you couldn't really see because the other one
was in the way, and then you realized exactly what
happened because, as you saw on the TV, all the smoke,
S. BAILEY
that pretty much came up ten stories high, 15 stories
high, pretty much just came right at us.
Asses and elbows, you know, we just started
running every which way. I think I might have actually
ran a little bit further than everyone else being I had
no gear on me or anything like that. I couldn't take a
knee and just let everything blow over me. So I was
kind of out in the front. I might have even ran an
extra block or two before I turned around and just
realized there was nobody even with me.
I would say it was 15, 20, 25 minutes before
that cloud kind of dissipated even a little bit. I
started working my way back slow, relaxing, just taking
it easy, realizing what's happening. I would say about
a half a block away from there, I came back with my
company again, not even knowing what happened to them
because they weren't even near me, the second one came
down. I ran again. It might have even been another
block I ran.
At that time jets were coming over your head
and you didn't know what was happening. Is that our
guys? It didn't even dawn on me that it was our guys.
It was just this happened here, big buildings are all
around, they're still hitting us.
S. BAILEY
It must have been another half an hour until
I kind of got on my feet and just was like, okay, let
me start working my way back. At that time guys from
other companies were kind of there also, so I wound up
hooking up with some kids from different companies. A
kid from 20 Truck was there, a Lieutenant from 34,
Lieutenant Winkler was there. I hooked up with them
and I actually wound up not even seeing my company
until maybe 11:00 o'clock that night, you know, working
without anything. I wound up getting gear later on.
Maybe a couple hours later I was able to get gear on
the side, no bunker coat, no helmet, just pants.
I just pretty much worked through the whole
night. I wound up finding out that they were actually
alive from one of the guys from 202 that was actually
on our side. Somehow or another I wound up being on
the other side of the building. I wasn't even on the
side where we were. I wound up being on the other
side. I saw a kid from 202 and he showed me a way how
to get to the other side to where 224 was. He let me
know that the guys were okay. That was at 11:00
o'clock at night maybe I hooked up with them.
Then we went back to the house by bus like
1:30 in the morning, you know, finally taking the bus
S. BAILEY
in. That's pretty much it. I went back to work the
next day.
BATTALION CHIEF KING: Okay. Thank you,
Stuart. The time is 1723 hours and I'm concluding the
interview with Firefighter Bailey.
File No. 9110249
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DOMINICK MUSCHELLO
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
D. MUSCHELLO 2
CHIEF KING: Today's date is December
6th, 2001. The time is 1831 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Stephen King, Safety
Battalion, FDNY. I'm conducting an
interview with Firefighter Dominick
Muschello from Ladder Company 119. This
interview is concerning the events of
September 11th, 2001.
Q. Dominick, you can start any time you
want .
A. I worked the 6 by 9 tour the day before
and the day of September 11th. We saw the smoke
when the first plane hit the towers from
headquarters here because we have a clear view to
the World Trade Center, but it was obstructed by
the factory across the street from the first
floor. So we went up to the third floor to see
what it was, and we noticed that it was the World
Trade Center.
At that point we flipped the TV on in
the gym, which is on the third floor. There's a
TV up there. We were watching the news, and they
said a plane had hit. Plus a marshal had come
in. The marshals are also in the building. He
D. MUSCHELLO 3
said he got on his pager that a plane had hit the
tower and it wasn't just a bomb or a fire.
As we watched the fire from the third
floor, we saw the second plane fly right into the
center of the building clear as day, because
there were about two or three of us up in the gym
at that point.
I kind of thought we were going to go
before that happened. But once the second plane
hit, I knew we were going over there and then you
knew that it wasn't any type of an accident, two
planes, a terrorist. Then you started thinking
it was going to be a long day. A lot of people
definitely got hurt over there that day.
We got the alarm I think our ticket
said 9:08. We were actually first due on the
ticket to the second tower, out right first due
on the first alarm.
So going over, looking at the towers as
we were starting to go over the bridge -- I'm not
the chauffeur, so I don't know what bridge we
went over, but I believe it was the Brooklyn
Bridge. I just remember saying to myself I hope
they don't blow this bridge up on the way over,
D. MUSCHELLO 4
because I had a real bad feeling I wasn't going
to come home that day. By the way everything
looked, I had a feeling it was going to be a bad
day.
When we got to the Trade Center, we had
a hard time getting close because of all the
debris that was falling from the building. So we
parked I believe, near the corner of Church and
Dey near that old church there, along that street
with the wrought iron railing.
I remember walking down there. We were
going to make a left and head down towards
Liberty because we were first due to the second
tower. We were going to go down Church to
Liberty, but there was too much debris falling.
So we made a right, and we went down Vesey or one
of those streets, whatever streets goes over to
the West Side Highway, around tower one.
As we were walking up, the jumpers were
jumping clear as day, hitting the street and the
marquis from tower one right in front of us on
the West Side Highway there. That was a very
disturbing sight.
There was the walkway that goes across
D. MUSCHELLO 5
right there that's no longer there, that walkway
that goes across the West Side Highway. When we
reached that walkway, we stopped for a second
because there were so many people jumping we were
afraid of getting hit by jumpers.
We walked across the street underneath
that walkway, and at that point when we got
across the street, that's where there was a
command post set up, just maybe 100 feet south of
that walkway on the northwest side of the West
Side Highway. That's where the command post had
been moved to, which we did not know at that
point. We were going in to the lobby to the
command post.
When we got to that command post, the
chief, which I don't remember who it was, but I
do remember seeing Chief Nigro there. I don't
know if he was there when we got there or if he
got there after us. Chief Ganci was down the
road just another 30 feet or so. We were told to
stay at that command center. It looked like
there were about four or five other companies
there.
While standing on the sidewalk, I
D. MUSCHELLO 6
looked up at the tower and I said to the captain,
"Captain, this is not a good place to stand." I
said, "If this building comes down, we have
nowhere to run." He said that's a good idea.
We moved in front of this garage door.
That luckily was open. We stood in front of the
garage door. It was a basement-entering garage,
a garage ramp, underground garage door there. I
think it was Two World Financial Center building
or one of the buildings there. We stood up on
the sidewalk but knew that we had the garage to
run into if anything happened.
We were kind of wondering why we were
still standing there. I kept asking the captain,
"Captain, what's going on? Let's go in the
building." He said that there was a mayday given
for a company -- I don't remember which company.
I'm sure he'll have that information.
The command post chief told us, or the
lieutenant or the captain at the command post
told us we're getting a so-called rescue team
together. We're putting together three engines,
two trucks, and we're going in for the company
that's giving the mayday. I believe we had three
D. MUSCHELLO 7
engines and one truck and we were just waiting
for the second truck to come.
All of a sudden it felt like a train
was pulling in, and the second tower came down.
I only looked at that tower for a split second or
two and knew it was time to run. Everybody ran
into the garage. Upon running into the garage,
there were people in front of me and there were
people in back of me. You couldn't see anywhere.
It was running into darkness.
I hid behind a pillar. I didn't know
there was a way out. I wasn't thinking there was
a way out. It was definitely every man for
himself. There wasn't one person looking out for
anybody else, which is understandable.
I didn't realize there was a rear door.
There was a staircase that went up to -- and they
were able to get out of the rear. I wasn't
thinking that fast. I wasn't following the guys
running in deep, deep, deep into this garage. I
went in about 40 feet and dove behind a column.
I didn't figure I had much more time than that.
I kneeled in the corner of this column
and put my mask on, my face piece on, and took
D. MUSCHELLO 8
the respirator part out and got ready. I didn't
want to use any air, and I didn't know what was
going to happen at that point, if it was going to
fill up with fire or what-have-you. So I didn't
want to start using air.
I put my jacket over my head. I took
my jacket off and put it over me kind of, not
took it off but loosened it and put my hood and
everything, just tried to cover as much as I
could. I crawled into the corner.
A couple of other people got on top of
me, and all of a sudden debris and stuff started
falling in front of the garage and falling into
the garage and the cloud of smoke and dust came
in.
Then all of a sudden when it seemed
safe and there was no more noise, I got up.
There wasn't really anybody else around me
anymore. I guess the guys that were on me had
left. They didn't feel safe or whatever the
story was.
So my first reaction was to head back
out instead of going deeper into the garage,
because I knew 40 feet up along the right wall,
D. MUSCHELLO 9
which is where I was, going in to the left but
right on the way out, I would be able to get to
the sidewalk again.
I couldn't see. I took my face piece
off at that point because I knew it was just
smoke. I reattached it to the respirator and
just pulled my hood over my mouth and nose, just
tried to breathe through that, because you really
couldn't breathe at all. It was so thick that
you spit it out. You coughed it and spit it
right out. It filled your mouth up. Your nose
got clogged instantly, you couldn't breathe
anymore through your nose.
I made my way up to the sidewalk, and
there was nobody there. There was one or two
people around. You couldn't see very far. It
was very, very quiet. There wasn't even any
sound. I didn't have a radio.
I remember seeing Chief Nigro kneeling
on the ground. It looked like he was saying a
prayer. He had just his helmet on and his white
shirt, no bunker gear. I tapped him on the
shoulder, and I said, "Chief, are you all right?"
He just looked up to me. I said to myself I know
D. MUSCHELLO 10
he's not hurt. So I looked around to see if
there was anybody else that I could help.
This whole time I'm thinking that all
the guys that ran into this garage were going to
come back out the way I was. I didn't think they
had found their way out the back door. So I was
kind of hanging on the sidewalk and heading
across the street, hitting the middle of the
street, looking around.
There was a lot of rubble, a lot of
debris around. I was looking for people to help,
because I knew where the garage was. You could
actually follow your footprints back. It was
like snow. There was no problem seeing where you
came from.
A firefighter came across the street at
that point. He didn't have any bunker gear on;
or he may have had bunker pants, but he didn't
have a coat or helmet or anything. I don't know
who he was. It looked to me like his fingers may
have gotten cut off or something, but he was
bleeding really, really bad. He was bleeding
real, real bad. He was bleeding all over me.
I actually yanked my T-shirt off that
D. MUSCHELLO 11
was under my shirt, and I wrapped his hand. I
brought him into the garage, because I wanted to
get him off the sidewalk because there was still
stuff that was falling. I don't know whether it
was coming from the first tower now, because we
were actually closer to the first tower, or if it
was stuff from the building, maybe glass. There
was still stuff falling down.
I went into the garage, and at that
point I met up with somebody that had stretched a
search rope. I didn't see who that was. All of
a sudden he said this search rope leads out to
the rear.
So I walked the guy that was hurt along
the search rope, and I said, "Follow the search
rope and you'll be able to get out through the
rear," because there were guys that were coming.
I said, "Somebody help him."
But he went into a closet and sat down
and said, "I can't walk anymore." I said, "You
can't sit in this closet. No one is going to
find you." So I helped him back onto the search
rope and started following the search rope. I
myself didn't know where it went. I didn't
D. MUSCHELLO 12
follow it yet.
At that point a guy came who had a
white windbreaker on, I believe it was. It might
have been like retirees or a union or a chief
association, but I don't know who he was. It was
civilian clothes with some type of a white
windbreaker on, an older fellow with gray hair.
I handed him this guy that was bleeding
off to him. As I told him take this guy to the
rear, I'm going to see if I can help anybody
else, we heard a tapping noise. I stopped. I
said, "Do you hear that?" He said, "Yeah, I do."
I said, "It sounds like it's coming from over
there." The guy said, "Yeah."
We started stretching the search rope
over to the noise, and then it wouldn't go
anymore. I told the guy, "You take the guy to
the rear, and I'll be able to find my way back to
the search rope. "
I followed the noise, the tapping
noise. It was an OEM guy. His name was Powell,
I believe, or something like that, a big black
guy, Calvin or something. I don't remember. I
remember asking him. He was in this closet. I
D. MUSCHELLO 13
guess he was scared.
(Interruption. )
MR. KING: We're continuing the tape
again. We had to stop the tape for about
five or six minutes. It's now 1849 hours,
and we're continuing with Firefighter
Muschello.
A. So I helped the guy out of the closet
there, the OEM guy. I brought him to the search
rope. The search rope led to a set of stairs and
a set of exits. At that point I said, "You can
get out from here." He said, "No problem."
I went back out on the search rope
towards the street again, went to look for more
people to help. I made it pretty close to tower
one across the street. Some guys, firemen, came
running out. I don't know where they came from.
You couldn't see no more than ten feet in front
of you.
I didn't know where they came out from,
but they came running and they were yelling
something like a bomb or something. They were
like, "Run, run, run!" Everyone was running. I
didn't really know what they were talking about.
D. MUSCHELLO 14
I knew where the garage was, so I said,
"Come this way." They followed me to the garage.
We ran into the garage. We still couldn't see.
A few other guys came behind us, and they said
run. We ran in.
At that point we ran past the search
rope. Really you couldn't find it. I thought it
was to the right, so I headed to the right. I
think there was like a ledge or a curb of some
type, a little bit of a drop. I kind of got
trampled and ran and pushed and went down off the
drop. I came down pretty hard, twisted a few
things, but you know with adrenaline flowing I
really didn't feel it until a day or two later,
but I got banged up.
At that point I said to myself my guys
from my company probably have to be wondering
where I am. I tried to grab somebody with a
radio and call my captain, but that wasn't
happening. So I decided to follow the search
rope out of the building, out of that garage, to
the rear.
As I walked down the sidewalk in the
rear like that Battery Park City thing close to
D. MUSCHELLO 15
the water, I met up with my company, they were
coming back to look for me. They thought that I
had perished.
Then we were in the back, and I just
remember saying, "Captain, I saw three guys that
were hurt over there. Let's go back and help
them. There's definitely people that we can help
over there." He said that the first tower is
going to come down too and we're not going over
there right now. We'll all group together, look
for some kind of command. Then we'll plan from
there, instead of just running aimlessly back in
and becoming more victims.
One thing I never heard a mayday after
that first one was given by the guys in the first
tower. I never really heard one. Like I said, I
didn't have a radio. I didn't hear too many
people telling people in the first tower that the
tower had collapsed, that the second tower had
collapsed. So I don't know if they were given
that information or not.
Some guys said that they knew it
collapsed, and a lot of guys said they had no
idea it collapsed. So I really don't know what
D. MUSCHELLO 16
happened at that point.
Then we walked around in the back
there, and I just remember saying we have to try
to find as much open space as possible, because
there was nothing but tall buildings around, in
case any more of them come down.
Then the second tower collapsed, on the
first tower. Then we just ran a little bit,
because that same puff of smoke engulfed you
again. I would say we couldn't have been any
more than a quarter mile away at that point. But
that smoke went a long way, that dust cloud,
whatever you want to call it.
The same thing happened again. I
remember seeing a granite wall along the back
of -- near the Battery Park City, kind of near
where the New York Waterway Parks. I hid behind
the granite wall, because I thought that was a
pretty safe place.
Then we went out around past Stuyvesant
High School. They were evacuating all the
students. At that point there was nobody around.
But then when we got around to Stuyvesant High
School, there were a lot of people over there.
D. MUSCHELLO 17
Everybody seemed to be walking along the
sidewalk.
We jumped out onto the West Side
Highway and gathered up the tools and stokes and
things like that and headed back down to help
whoever we could.
At that point they were saying all
kinds of stories of gas, deadly gas, not natural
gas, and stuff like that. So we really didn't
know what was going on. We kind of had a feeling
that there couldn't have been too many people
more that we could help over there. We did go
back there, but we just kind of waited until we
felt it was a little safe.
Not to mention the fact that at that
point a lot of our tools had gotten lost. A lot
of our equipment had gotten lost by just dropping
everything and running, guys trampling gear and
whatnot. We really didn't have the gear that we
needed to head back in.
Again, we gathered up what we could,
and we went back over. Then we just proceeded to
operate for the remainder of the day. Sometime
later on that day, I believe after -- when they
D. MUSCHELLO 18
told us to evacuate the area for tower number
seven, building seven, when they knew that was
coming down, I had hooked up with my company,
Ladder 119, at that point. I told the captain I
was going to set up with my company at that
point, because at that point the recall guys were
there. There were a lot of guys from each
company there, so there wasn't any type of
manpower problem. This is later on in the day.
I worked with Ladder 119 for the rest of the day.
We were on the Church Street side,
which unfortunately -- I was there for two days
straight. I never left until the 12th. Actually
I didn't leave until the 13th, which would have
been Thursday morning at sunlight. That's when I
really couldn't stand anymore.
The whole time we were down there, the
wind was blowing exactly that way. It was
blowing right towards the Church Street side. So
we were getting nothing but -- you couldn't blink
anymore, your eyes or so dry and red. You
couldn't even blink or rub them. I couldn't
breathe anymore. It was unbelievable. But we
were over there for the whole time.
D. MUSCHELLO 19
That night all the cars and that
afternoon all the cars and the trucks and
everything that were along Church Street were all
still burning, and there were water problems. We
operated and did different things with the tower
ladder.
Actually we were putting water on
building number five I believe for a while. Then
they moved us over to building number four, and
we operated the tower on that.
That's about it.
Q. That's terrific. That's fine.
CHIEF KING: We're concluding this
interview. The time is 1856 hours.
File No. 9110251
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD CACHIA
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
E. CACHIA 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: Today's date is
December 6th, 2001. The time is 2 p.m.
This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of
the New York City Fire Department, Safety
Division. I'm conducting an interview with
Ed Cachia of Engine 53.
Q. Please state your recollections for
September 11th.
A. As far as that particular day, we were
in the firehouse cleaning the kitchen, and a
member had come in from the house watch and said
put on Channel 7, whatever channel it was. He
said a plane hit tower one of the World Trade
Center, the north tower.
We all ran into the kitchen. Everybody
regrouped in the kitchen. We were watching the
news, and they had helicopters in the air
immediately with the footage. We were discussing
more than likely we're going to go down there,
this is going to be a big fire.
We all witnessed the second plane
hitting the south tower, and with that everybody
got kind of psyched up and said we're definitely
going to be going down there now, it's definitely
E. CACHIA 3
some kind of terrorist act and everybody be safe.
Everybody is very concerned.
With that the tone alarm went off, and
53 Engine was called down to the north tower. 43
Truck remained in quarters. As we got on the
rig, everybody double-checked their equipment,
checked the flashlights and all that.
We headed down. We had a very good
chauffeur who went through the park and got us
down there pretty quick. I believe we pulled up
somewhere on West Street a couple blocks before
the towers, the north tower. With that I
remember seeing 22 parked in front of us, 13
Truck. They must have gone ahead of us.
We walked towards a command post which
was set up by an underground garage across from
tower two. There was a chief on both sides of
this garage, the entrance and the exit. One was
the truck, which was on the southern side. On
the northern side of the garage were the engine
companies. We were waiting there for our
assignments. I believe as we were there a couple
companies were assigned into the building. I
remember seeing 13 Truck to our right.
E. CACHIA 4
Then the jumpers started to take effect
as far as everybody's concentration and thoughts.
There was a tremendous amount of people jumping
from the top floors, and the sound and the vision
of it kind of broke everybody's concentration.
So with that I remember losing sight or record of
13 Truck, which I believe they soon went in
after .
We moved to the top of the hill. I
don't remember what companies were in front of
us, but we worked our way up to the top of the
hill. We were with 44 Engine, I believe. We
were about to get our assignment to go into the
building, and I remember Chief Ganci on the radio
yelling, "There's another plane in the air. I
don't want anybody to go into the towers.
Everybody stay put."
Then I remember him desperately trying
to get information: Is the military going to
send a plane up to intercept the plane? He told
the chiefs again, "Make sure no companies go in
right now. There's another plane up in the air.
We don't know what's going on."
With that I remember a chief coming
E. CACHIA 5
over to us saying, "53, 44, do me a favor, before
you get your assignment, before you go anywhere
near this building, I want you to move a couple
of rigs so we can get some ambulances in here."
So now that broke up our company. I
remember standing there with my officer,
Lieutenant Bob Dorritie, and the other members of
the company -- Danny Schofield, Louis Giaconelli,
Michael Catalano -- went to move some rigs.
As I'm standing with my officer, the
people are continuing to jump. Ganci is still on
the radio trying desperately to get some
information concerning this third plane in the
air.
As my officer and I were looking at the
south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a
lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit,
because we originally had thought there was like
an internal detonation explosives because it went
in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then
the tower came down.
With that everybody was just stunned
for a second or two, looking at the tower coming
down. Then everybody started to turn towards the
E. CACHIA 6
garage. That was it. We were just kind of blown
into the garage with all the dust and the debris
and material from the building. It came up
rapidly right up the street.
As I remember turning, if you were out
in the street somewhat, a good amount out in the
street, you were kind of blown down the street,
where we were kind of forced into the garage. We
were very fortunate. There were several
companies.
We were encapsulated in this garage for
quite some time, maybe 15 minutes or so. You
couldn't see. You couldn't breathe. You
couldn't even hear because all the residue and
material was in your ears and your nose and your
mouth.
Then as a few minutes went by, you
heard some voices. It was dead silence at first.
Just different emotions: How are we going to get
out of here? I can't see. I can't breathe. My
chest. It was still completely black. You
couldn't see an inch in front of your face.
Then I remember an officer saying,
"I've got a wall. I've got a wall. I'm going to
E. CACHIA 7
hit the wall with the halogen. Follow the sound
of the halogen. Come towards me. I've got a
wall. We'll get out of here."
As I was on the floor -- I was very
fortunate. I landed towards the incline of the
garage. I was probably one of the last ones to
get into the garage. I felt the incline with my
left hand, and I had my light. I remember
screaming, "I'm at the entrance. Follow my
light." I was telling everybody, "Just follow
this light, because this is the way out."
I remember another officer yelling,
"How do you know that's the way out? I've got a
wall. Come towards the wall." So there was a
lot of different emotions and different things
going on in everybody's mind at the time.
I started to kind of go up the hill
myself, pointing the flashlight towards everybody
in the garage, and came across like little tree
limbs. At that point you still couldn't see. It
was completely blacked out. I knew this was
definitely the way to go. Some guys followed me
out .
That was it. I remember hearing the
E. CACHIA 8
chief's voice. Maybe this is like 15 minutes or
so, maybe going a little towards 20 minutes, a
little under 20 minutes, everybody kind of
followed their way toward the incline of the
garage.
The chief said, "We're going to
regroup." It started to lighten up just a little
bit. It was still kind of dark out but lightened
up enough where you saw other people's faces.
The chief said, "We have to regroup in another
area. "
With that guys were asking each other,
"How are you doing? Are you all right?" This and
that. Guys were starting to regroup little by
little. It's still dark out but light enough to
see people now where we were standing. People
were still jumping from tower two because you
could hear the bodies hitting the ground.
Then another chief came over and said,
"We have to regroup, but I want everybody to go
back into the garage. We're going to have a
lifeline set up, and we're going to come out the
back of the garage. It's safer." The other
chief had said, "We'll walk along West Street and
E. CACHIA 9
we'll regroup around the other end of the
building. "
So with that I remember my officer
grabbed me by the shoulder and said we're going
to go back through the garage. It's going to be
safer. I remember him yelling out to a few other
people too we'll go through the garage, it ' s a
lot safer, because at this point in time it's
still kind of dark out. People were still
jumping. There still was a little confusion as
to what was down the block from the collapse.
So a few guys regrouped on top of the
garage and I believe started to walk along West
Street on the outside. I walked back into the
underground garage with my officer and several
other guys. There was a lifeline set up, and we
came out the rear of this building -- I don't
know what building it was -- by the marina.
At that point in time, everybody got
out the rear, and my officer and I, Bob Dorritie,
was standing there. There was the chief that
initiated the entire removal. My officer said to
the chief, "Chief, I'm missing a couple of guys.
I don't know where they are."
E. CACHIA 10
At that point in time, myself, Louis
Giaconelli and my officer were the three left
standing there with the chief. The chief said,
"Send one of your guys back into the building.
Maybe they're in the building somewhere. And you
two guys stay out here in case they do come out."
So I stood there with my officer, and we sent
Giaconelli back into the building.
At that point in time, we're looking up
at the north tower. I remember my officer
saying, "I have a feeling this one is going to
come down too." Just as he said that, that tower
came down it looked like at the point of impact.
We actually witnessed both towers coming down
visually. We happened to be looking at that
particular time. With that, the tower came down.
We ran towards the marina to seek
shelter, and all the debris came over the
building we were behind. We were kind of buried
a second time with light debris, my officer being
ahead of me by the boats, and I just didn't quite
make it that far. I just hit the ground and
hoped for the best.
You could hear the steel beams coming
E. CACHIA 11
down. They flew everywhere. That was it.
There's another point in time you couldn't see,
couldn't breathe, for at least another ten
minutes or so.
I remember finally getting in touch
with my officer, calling his name out. It took
quite some time, and he had said he couldn't
speak because of all the residue in his mouth. I
had my mask with me at the time, and I had it on.
That was it .
After that we were hoping for the best
with Louis Giaconelli who went into the building
to look for the other members who were in another
place. They moved the rigs and took shelter in
the Winter Garden, I believe, at the time of the
collapse. We were hoping that he was going to be
all right. He had walked out of the building at
that time, so we knew he was all right.
So what we did was we walked by the
water to regroup in another area, which I don't
exactly recollect. We were explaining to the
chief we're missing a couple guys. He said, "A
lot of guys took refuge in the Winter Garden,
which was next door. Let's get some confirmation
E. CACHIA 12
before we do anything, but everybody stay here."
Later on we did hook up with the
members that we were missing. My officer was
extremely concerned and very upset about that.
He pursued it wholeheartedly. They regrouped
with us.
At that point in time, they were trying
to organize some kind of search for the missing
members that were caught in the collapse. I
remember walking towards tower two, basically
back towards the front of the garage where we
regrouped to leave the area. We wound up back in
that area.
I remember seeing Chief Visconti very
visibly upset, standing on a pile of rubble. It
must have been a story or two high in that area.
He was explaining that we're going to create a
line. We're all going to walk across the rubble
as wide as we can, and we're going to search
every little nook and cranny and hole or cabin,
whatever we can find. Where there's a space,
you're going to look for the brothers that might
have got caught in the collapse.
At that point in time, we did that,
E. CACHIA 13
this being maybe half an hour from the point in
time of actually leaving that marina area, maybe
half an hour after that. I remember several guys
came across a fireman's body here, a fireman's
body there, a helmet. You saw the back of
someone's bunker gear, his legs, a rig twisted
under the rubble. Basically that was it.
There wasn't the equipment at the time
to dig anybody out, because of the twisted steel.
So we put markers for the bodies. They would try
and get as deep as possible and close to a body
to see if there was a pulse. If there was a
confirmation that this person didn't make it,
they would mark off the area and we would
continue forward, hopefully to find someone that
was still alive.
We did that for some time. The
inhalation of the dust and the initial collapse
just was overwhelming. You were just choking and
coughing on your own phlegm and this and that. So
we did that maybe 45 minutes or an hour or so.
Then my company and I, we regrouped in
another area just to get a breather, because at
that particular time more and more firemen were
E. CACHIA 14
coming in. My officer said, "Look, we've got to
really just take a break here. We're really
overloading ourselves here, " because he saw our
condition. We were kind of waning at that point
in time from exhaustion.
So that was it. We went back to
another staging area. We regrouped. We
replenished water. Basically that was the last
thing I remember, we regrouped. At that point in
time, other members from our company met us at
that area, and they were going off into the area
to search also.
I myself personally had my eyes
encrusted with the cement and lime dust. The
second I stopped working, I couldn't even keep my
eyes open. So my officer said, "Look, we've got
to get you to see the eye doctor right away, "
because my eyes were bloodshot red and I couldn't
even keep them open at that point, knowing that
this was it, we're going to take a break, more
guys are coming in.
Then I remember it was a little while
after that we all went to the triage center, and
everybody was getting treated for eye injuries.
E. CACHIA 15
Then they said they felt that we had cornea
damage so we should go right to a hospital.
So my officer and myself, I think Mike
Catalano and Louis Giaconelli went to Cornell.
That was it. That was it for us. We were
examined .
Q. Thank you very much.
CHIEF KENAHAN: This concludes the
interview. The time now is 2:16.
File No. 9110252
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOHN COLON
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
J. COLON
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Today is December
6, 2001. The time is 1:35 p.m. This is Battalion
Chief Kenahan from the Safety Battalion of the New
York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an
interview with John Colon of Ladder 43 about the
events on September 11.
Q. Please tell us what you know from that day.
A. Well, I'm John Colon, I was a chauffeur for
43 Truck that morning. We were watching TV and we got
a run to 43 Street and Lexington Avenue for a person
trapped in a revolving door. We go from here from 102
Street and 3 Avenue and it was a 10-91. Then we got
called to the World Trade Center. We kept hearing what
was going on. I made a right on 57 Street. I went
down the West Side Highway and we parked around 4
blocks away, 5 blocks away. We got out of the rig, we
got ourselves organized.
We started, not running, but walking fast
towards the -- towards one of the buildings. We didn't
see whether the first building was down. We really
couldn't tell. When we got about approximately a
block, block and a half away, the building started
coming down. We stopped, we paused because we were in
awe. The whole building starts coming down. We turn
J. COLON
around, we run. Luckily we got into a loading dock and
I asked the junior guy, Jerry Suden, to force open a
chain .
We got in there. The whole building came
running down, came falling down. We waited a few
minutes. We regrouped, we went back to, I presume it
was the second tower, the building that came down, that
we were looking at. There was numerous fires all over
the place. The officer, Glen Rohan, told Jerry Suden
to put out car fires. There were car fires. The rigs
were on fire. Jerry got a hose line, started putting
the fires out.
We climbed up a 35 foot portable ladder and
we helped get the officer from Engine 1, who was
deceased. We continued from there. I don't know how
much more I could tell you. I could tell you what we
did all day long.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : No, that's not
really what we are interested in.
Q. So as far as you know, you didn't see any
companies go into any particular position prior to the
collapse?
A. No, not at all. No, we didn't. We saw the
rigs parked there, but I have no idea where their
J. COLON
positions were.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Okay, thanks a
lot. This concludes the interview. The time is
1:35.
File No. 9110253
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BANACISKI
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
R. BANACISKI
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : December 6, 2001.
The time is 3:30 p.m. This is Battalion Chief
Kenahan of the Safety Battalion of the Fire
Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with Rich Banaciski of
Ladder 22.
Q. Please tell us the events of September 11 as
you recall them?
A. We got the alarm for us to respond, just, I
would say, a minute after the second plane had hit the
tower. Then they actually came over the voice alarm.
Actually told the companies to respond outlet. We
responded in and it was all the west side companies
were actually all running down together, down the West
Side Highway, because it was closed going northbound.
So we could see what was going on, the two towers, both
of them burning pretty good and then we got into, down
to the site. We were at the corner of West and Vesey.
That's where we parked the rig, in front of the Verizon
building .
We were told to bring extra cylinders. We
each brought our extra cylinders and we brought our
rollups, the whole thing, and we reported in to the
command post, which was in front of -- I think it was
R. BANACISKI
the Merrill Lynch building. There was a parking
garage. There were two ramps that went in that parking
garage.
Q. On West Street?
A. On West Street. We reported in to there and
I remember they had the command post set up. They were
telling the engines to the one side, all the trucks to
the other side, put your cylinders in the middle. We
were there. They were getting the command structure
going. I just remember we were -- initially we were
out by the street and they started having jumpers, so
they all kind of moved back towards the parking garage,
towards the building, so nothing would come down on
us .
We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15
minutes and then I just remember there was just an
explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up
these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the
way around like a belt, all these explosions.
Everybody just said run and we all turned around and we
ran into the parking garage because that's basically
where we were. Running forward would be running
towards it. Not thinking that this building is coming
down. We just thought there was going to be a big
R. BANACISKI
explosion, stuff was going to come down.
There was just a tremendous cloud that came
into the parking garage. Somebody actually laid out a
search rope, I think it was the officer of 76 Engine
too, Lieutenant Farrington. He laid out a search rope
so some of the guys could find their way to a back
door, set up a back staircase in the Merrill Lynch
building. We followed that up and we ended up coming
out behind the building where the Marina is. Back in
there. A lot of guys made their way out there.
We kind of -- from there we kind of regrouped
together because we lost each other when the building
came down. We all ran, so we kind of regrouped there,
got ourselves together. Then there was a lot of people
not knowing what to do, do you know what I mean.
I said to the officer, I'm going to go look
for our chauffeur and I knew he parked the rig right in
front of the Verizon building. I went up there. I
started looking for him. He had moved the rig, not
knowing now -- now I know, but he had moved the rig.
I'm not exactly sure where he put it, but I went to go
look for him because I couldn't get him on the radio
due to the amount of radio traffic. People looking for
this guy, this guy, companies looking for their own
R. BANACISKI
guys.
So I was kind of looking around over there,
up and down West Street and looking on Vesey and I just
remember there was a police officer standing there and
he just started saying, it's starting to lean, it's
starting to lean. I remember looking up, looking at
the second building and just seeing it starting to
move. I just started running back down Vesey towards
the water again to where I had come from. That's
-- the second building came down there.
So we kind of -- same thing, there was a time
period where people were kind of in shock, not knowing
what to do. I just remember we finally said we got to
go somewhere now. We got to figure out what's going
on .
I remember going back up Vesey to West and
then they were telling us to go north. Go north up on
West Street, because there is a foot bridge north, like
an arched foot bridge. Had everybody going north of
that. We will regroup up there.
I just remember that's when I started seeing
all the guys coming in from home, all the guys from the
company and we actually -- everybody from this house,
we stuck together and we actually from there, a little
R. BANACISKI
bit of time, maybe an hour or so, they actually started
telling us to go here, go there. They moved us from
one spot, they moved us on to Vesey again. Because
then they were worried about --we actually searched
the Verizon building, because there was reports of
firemen there. Basically our whole house searched that
building .
They told us to get out of there because they
were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right
behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors
of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just
see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone.
We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers
were because we were that high up. Looking over the
smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous,
tremendous fires going on.
Finally they pulled us out. They said all
right, get out of that building because that 7, they
were really worried about. They pulled us out of there
and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street,
between the water and West Street. They put everybody
back in there.
Finally it did come down. From there -- this
is much later on in the day, because every day we were
R. BANACISKI
so worried about that building we didn't really want to
get people close. They were trying to limit the amount
of people that were in there. Finally it did come
down. That's when they let the guys go on . I just
remember we started searching around all the rigs.
That was basically the rest of the day, the
rest of the night. We were searching around rigs
looking for men. That was it.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : All right.
Q. Do you have anything else to add?
A. No.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN: Okay. Thank you
very much for your cooperation. The time now is
3:45 p.m. This concludes the interview.
File No. 9110254
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BATTISTA
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
R. BATTISTA
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The time is 4:49
p.m. This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan, the
Safety Battalion of the New York City Fire
Department. I'm conducting an interview with
Richard Battista of Engine 76.
Q. Richard, explain to us what you remember on
September 11.
A. Well, September 11, the day started out
normally just like any other day. The men had gotten
up for breakfast and I turned on the channel, I turned
on the news TV and we saw that one of the World Trade
Center towers had been struck by an airplane. At that
time we thought it was an accident. Shortly after, the
second plane struck the second building. We started
receiving our alarms and everybody came over the voice
alarm telling us exactly what to do.
Members started to turn out and we made our
way downtown. We took a route along the West Side
Highway and on our way down there you could see both
towers in flames and you could see a lot of smoke in
the immediate area. On arrival we got there, the
Lieutenant had - Lieutenant Farrington, told us
basically what we needed to do as to - just start
getting to a staging area and while he was receiving
R. BATTISTA
his orders from the Battalion, we pretty much kept a
wait in front of what is now -- I think was the
American Express building.
At that time he just told us basically to
prepare, getting extra water, whatever else we might
have needed for the flight up. I think he was getting
reports of possibly going up to a building, one of the
floors in the second tower.
Q. North tower or the south tower?
A. Sorry, the north tower. At this time, I had
just been waiting for a while, and all I could remember
from my vantage point was seeing civilians jump out of
the buildings in the west side of the tower and landing
around the surrounding streets. At that time, to be
honest I didn't really focus too much on what was going
on around me because I was sort of fixated on what was
happening up above, so I didn't really get too much of
a time to notice what was happening immediately around
me. I know there was a lot of people running back and
forth and there was havoc, but it didn't really dawn
upon me at that time that I should be aware of my
immediate surroundings.
Once they started falling, we got a report of
a firefighter being injured, from someone maybe
R. BATTISTA
falling, so we decided to move back further away from
the tower. I remember specifically the command post,
which may have been, I don't know, maybe 40 feet in
front of us, something in that nature. When I saw
that, Lieutenant Farrington told us to move back so we
were sort of underneath a garage area when we first
heard reports or guys yelling that one of the towers
was coming down. I was able to stick my head out and
look up a bit and once I saw that I just immediately
turned around and ran into the building.
Within seconds everything was pitch dark. I
remember something actually hit me on my shoulder, what
it was I don't know. It could have been a helmet, it
could have been something that hit me on my left
shoulder. Even though we weren't immediately in front
of the south tower, in that vicinity, because I wasn't
able to see what was coming down around me, I thought
maybe it was a piece of the building or something, so
at that point I just ducked into a corner and put my
-- rolled up in a fetal position, just balled up and
waiting for the worst to be over.
Once things settled down I heard firefighters
asking for help. Someone actually stated oh, I have
asthma. I can't breathe, whatever. So I was one of
R. BATTISTA
the few firefighters that I remember who actually had
my cylinder on my back, because some of the
firefighters had actually put them down to rest,
because we had been waiting for a while.
At this point I turned on my flashlight and I
tried to look for anyone that I might be able to assist
within the garage area, keeping in mind I didn't know
how badly affected the building I was in was. I just
knew it was pitch black in front. I couldn't see out
where I came in from originally, so I thought who
knows, maybe we are underneath or trapped as well.
After some of the haze started clearing, we
started seeing bits of light, but we couldn't exactly
see the entrance. Lieutenant Farrington had the
forethought of getting a search rope tied off to a
bannister and made his way out to the back of the
building heading towards the west river. He started
calling out to the members of the 76 and other
companies. We found the line and made our way out the
building and back down under some steps and coming out,
surfacing on the other side.
At that time I really don't remember too many
other faces, because myself, I have a little over a
year on the job, so I really don't know too many other
R. BATTISTA
people from surrounding companies, just a few familiar
faces.
I do remember once we made it out the back of
the building, running towards the river and I saw
several members of our truck company, 22 Truck. Those
were the only distinguishing faces I could make out.
Not only was it hard to see, but a lot of helmets were
covered with soot at that point after we made it out
the back, so it was difficult to even see some of the
numbers, even if I did look for it.
At that point we waited by the river and
tried to gather everyone because all the members who
were in the Engine that day, I think two of the members
might have gone a different way, so we were waiting to
catch up with them and then we were waiting to make a
voice communication with them over the handy talky, but
there was just so much confusion that that wasn't able
to happen right away.
Eventually we did meet up with them and we
started walking up north when the second tower
collapsed. At this point that walk turned into a run
very quickly and we made our way to, I believe it's
Vesey or on West Street, and started going up West
Street until we were able to come to another meeting
R. BATTISTA
point .
Other than that, that's pretty much all I can
recall at this point.
Q. The point that you are just talking about
now, had the second tower come down yet or not?
A. No.
Q. What happened after you met at that point,
did you go back at all or did you stay up there when
the second tower came down?
A. Once we made it out to that meeting point
where the Chiefs were trying to get a head count over
on West Street, I was (inaudible) for a message from
the Chief's aide and found out that we had to go back
in eventually to find -- to see how many members we
could find. This took some time, because like I said,
everything was out of whack. People -- whole companies
weren't together, so it took some time for us to not
only gather the men but gather our bearings, because
you could imagine once we were waiting we also got
another report of a plane in the area, so we thought
possibly at that time that another building around us
might get struck.
I remember sitting down and drinking water
and trying to get a bite of an apple or something by
R. BATTISTA
that time. When we finally did get our job duties,
what we were supposed to do, we started gathering up
again and we were told we had to turn out on a
spreading fire in what I believe is 6 World Trade
Center or the customs building, possibly a bank.
At that point, this was later on, closer to
the afternoon maybe, maybe 12, but I'm not exactly
sure, during that time --
As I was saying, once the afternoon came
around, 12 or 1, by that time I think a new officer had
met up with our company, we had Captain Jirak take us
into that fire on that 6 World Trade Center where we
helped extinguish some fires on the back of that
building.
Prior to that, earlier in the day, just to
backtrack a little bit, when the second tower
collapsed, I remember we were all by the water way, by
the river, right on the river's edge, and we were
looking in the general direction of the towers, but you
couldn't see much, because I believe the other
building, maybe 4 World Trade Center or the American
Express building, was blocking our view. We couldn't
really see nothing but what was up in the sky.
Once we finished extinguishing the fires, we
R. BATTISTA
once again met up on West Street with Captain Jirak and
we just waited for further orders to go out and start
making searches. That's about it.
Q. Okay, anything else you would like to add?
A. No.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Thank you Richard,
for all your help. This concludes the interview
it ' s now 5:05 p.m.
File No. 9110255
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER TODD HEANEY
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
T . HEANEY
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The date is
December 6, 2001. The time is 11:10, and this is
Battalion Chief Kenahan of the safety battalion of
the New York City Fire Department.
I'm conducting an interview with Todd Heaney
of Engine 209.
Q. Please tell us any information you have about
September 11.
A. All right. I'm going to -- just a little
checklist you gave me, Chief, might help me --
Q. Fine.
A. -- if I can use it.
Q. Whatever way.
A. We were here in quarters, just like everybody
else, and we saw what happened. When the second tower
got hit, we were dispatched on the fifth alarm.
We left quarters. We took the Brooklyn
Bridge to Manhattan. En route we could just see the
damage to the towers. It was bad.
We got to Manhattan. I think we were
dispatched around ten after nine. We got to Manhattan
quickly. We were there in 20 minutes, but maybe less.
We were there about 9:30. I don't remember where we
parked our apparatus .
T . HEANEY
We came down Chambers Street off the Brooklyn
Bridge, made a left-hand turn onto Broadway, and we
took one of the side streets. Might have been
Liberty. I don't remember. I don't remember where we
parked exactly, but when we got off the rig, we took
our roll-ups, and we took some forcible entry tools,
search rope, things like that.
No civilians or anything approached us. It
was pretty -- pretty much had people evacuated from
around the towers at the time. A lot of people on
Broadway and the side streets, but when we got down to
the complex, I expected to see a lot of people running
around, but there weren't. They had most of the people
out .
We saw Engine Company 217 on the corner of
Liberty and Church. At that time, I had a
handy-talkie, and we were supposed to report to the
lobby of Tower 2, but our handy-talkie message told us
to report to command post at West and Vesey Street.
Now, at that time, they also were telling us
to bring additional cylinders, so our rig wasn't parked
that far from where we were, which was Liberty and
Church, so we went back to the rig and grabbed
additional cylinders .
T . HEANEY
We -- our officer spoke with the officer of
217 for a couple of seconds at the corner of Liberty
and Church. I don't know if that's 4 or 5 World Trade
Center on the corner, and then there's a Burger King
right there.
We proceeded down Liberty towards West
Street. We ran into an injured fireman. I don't
remember too well, but there was an injured fireman.
Dr. Kelly was there. She came out of a building, and
they were carrying this fireman. They put him into an
ambulance right away.
I asked Dr. Kelly if she needed our help, and
she said, "No, we're going to take him to the
hospital." We passed 10 and 10 's quarters.
I mean, I don't know what they want me to
tell them. There were people -- dead people
everywhere. I don't know if you want to know that.
Q. What did you do, you know, you can say it.
Whatever you saw.
A. You know, they -- the people were just
everywhere. Saw some luggage. From the plane, I
imagine. A lot of debris from the upper floors, papers
and things of that nature.
We ran into a truck company. I don't
T . HEANEY
remember who they were. This was on Liberty. On the
corner of Liberty and West is 90 West Street. I know
that building, the old -- an older building with
scaffolding all around it. This building is located
next to 90 West. It's the building -- it's still
standing. It has a big slash in it from the -- that's
where we bumped into this truck company.
There was some type of, like, promenade there
or steps that could go up into, like, some type of
balcony, steps that could go down, and they came up to
us and said, "There is no command post. We're going to
the lobby." And they went to the lobby.
Our officers -- we were very close to West
Street at this time, standing right across the street
from Tower 2. We thought we could just go to West
Street and look. If there was no command post there,
we were going to go to Vesey.
At this time we found an officer's helmet
badly crushed with a lot of blood on it. I don't know
what company it was. I don't remember. 54, 50
something, but it was an officer's helmet, badly
damaged.
We continued down Liberty to West Street, and
there was this chief standing there in the middle of
T . HEANEY
West, a little bit south of West Street, and he had his
own little, like, command post in there, you know, like
the flip-up, and he was standing there all by himself.
Before we went to go to Vesey, our officer
said, "Let me just ask this guy if he wants us to do
something from here." That chief told our officer to
stand fast right here, and the buildings came down.
Tower 2 came town.
We ran across West Street to one of the
financial buildings, which is near the south pedestrian
overpass .
Q. Right.
A. The doors were locked. We couldn't get in
the building. Two of our guys got caught at that
door. Me and another guy got caught outside, and that
was it. Just -- the buildings came down. It became
black as night.
Q. All your members went the same way, like --
A. We all headed towards that building. That's
where we all headed towards. I mean, it happened very
quickly. You heard the sound, like a crack, like a
giant tree branch breaking, and I was frozen. I
couldn't even run.
People were just running past me, and I
T . HEANEY
watched the building, and the top half cracked and
started to fall towards Liberty, started to fall
towards Liberty Street, towards where 10 and 10 is, and
then it just started coming down, and the pounding got
louder, and louder and louder, and then we just started
running .
Q. What happened with that chief?
A. I don't even know. I don't know what
happened, if he made it. I don't know.
Q. I guess he didn't go the same direction you
went or --
A. I don't know. He was -- he was a little
south of us. We were on the corner of Liberty and
West. He was a little south of that, so our officer
went to him. We stayed, like, in the middle of West
Street right by the Marriott Hotel and the south
overpass, the south pedestrian overpass.
When it started to come down, we just ran.
There was nothing else to do, and we tried to head
towards that building.
Two guys got caught in the revolving door. I
didn't find out until later that they were able to
break the window and get into the building. Myself and
Tommy Hansard, who was working that day, we got caught
T . HEANEY
outside. There was a -- there was a police officer and
a woman civilian, who were kind of, like, curled up on
the floor. I kind of just, like, curled up with them.
I thought that was it. This is the end. You can't out
run the World Trade Center, and the concussion
was -- it was deafening, and this hot, super wind blew,
and it just got dark as night, and you couldn't breathe
because of the dust, and we didn't have our -- we
dropped our masks. We had them on, and so we -- really
that was it.
I -- I didn't know what happened to everybody
else. I thought I was by myself, but I knew -- I knew
what direction I was facing. I knew that that building
we were running to was the west side, and that if we
could make it to the west side, we'd hit the water, and
maybe we'd be able to get away, so I crawled along the
side of the building, and I had this police officer and
this woman with me. They held onto me, and I crawled
along the wall until I got to the corner, and I made
the right, and we just kept crawling.
Along the way, I found a fireman's helmet
from 101, and I picked it up, and I kept calling out to
101 on the way there. Nobody answered. Other
companies would answer. I don't remember who answered,
T . HEANEY
but it wasn't 101.
We crawled to just about the end of this
building, and we got to the west side where it was a
little bit clearer. We got into a restaurant and
dropped those two people off there.
Now, I don't think I bumped into my guys
again. I went back to where we were to try to find our
gear, and I still had the guy's helmet in my hand, and
I kept calling out for him, and he didn't answer, so I
put the helmet back down basically where I found it.
When I got to the front of the building, it
tossed rigs down the street like it was -- like they
were toys. They were upside down, on fire. There was
a large chunk of the facade basically where we were
standing. I didn't know where the officer was or what
happened to that chief, but I found Tommy Hansard, the
guy who was caught outside with me.
We went back to the west side because it was
clearer, and then we found our other guys. They had
went through the building and came out basically on the
other end, so we regrouped there. We started to head
back. We weren't on Liberty. It would be the next
street north of Liberty, and we were heading back
towards the towers, and we found three firemen
10
T . HEANEY
climbing -- just coming up out of the rubble. Two were
trying to help one, so me and another guy took him. He
had a bad head wound.
While we were down by the water dropping off
the civilians I was with and that cop -- there was an
ESU cop or someone there who said, "I have medical
equipment, " so I remembered him saying that, and we
brought this officer to him, and he had a few people.
There was even -- there was a police launch boat
there .
It cleared -- the air cleared pretty good
down by the water, so we dropped him off, and we
started heading back. I don't remember what street we
were on. I don't remember exact -- I really don't
remember where we were, but as we were heading back,
the next tower came down, and again we were just
totally engulfed in just debris, and we just curled up
next to a building until it blew away.
We made our way back, and everything was
gone. Everything was gone. It was gone.
Q. With the second collapse, did you see
anything?
A. No, we weren't close enough to the second
collapse, plus the dust cloud from the first -- I
11
T . HEANEY
couldn't even see the tower. I knew where it was, you
know. I mean, you could hear the fire.
You had a good idea where it was, but you
couldn't see it any more, so instead of walking
straight down the block, we just figured that we
headed -- we were now more north than we were when we
were at the south tower, so we're right near the north
tower .
We were figuring if the second tower -- if
the Tower 2 came down, Tower l's coming down, too.
Just don't know when, so instead of walking straight
down the street, we headed a block south, and then
headed east to go back to the towers.
Just figured if the towers are going to come
down, we'd put a block between us, we might be able to
make it. Just knew that there were guys in the tower.
We knew there were guys in the tower. We saw them
coming -- I saw them running out of the building, and I
knew they didn't make it, and there is no way those
guys I saw emerging from the tower were going to make
it.
We got back to basically where the Marriott
Hotel was. That's the only landmark I can remember,
that and the south pedestrian walk, and we got split up
12
T . HEANEY
from there. They were trying to get water. Marine
companies pulled in at the foot of one of the streets,
and they just started laying hose, and I just started
helping out with that.
My eyes were really bad at this point. I --
they were just really bad, and they bothered me and
progressively got worse as the day went on.
I don't know where my company went, but at
some point on that street I ran into 102. 102 truck
was housed with us, and they were sent to the staging
area at the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel on the Brooklyn
side when this happened. They ended up walking through
the tunnel, and by the time they came out, the towers
were down, but they met up with me at Tower 2
basically, what was left of Tower 2.
I don't know where my officer was. I didn't
know where my chauffeur was. I didn't see them again.
We started stretching hose. We couldn't get water for
anything. The satellite units were showing up. I saw
the manifolds being brought in.
Officers were pleading for help to try and
get a line in place, so I just stayed with them and
helped stretch a line. There was a rig there that we
were stretching hose off of. I don't know what rig it
13
T . HEANEY
was. I saw 113 truck, their rig. It was basically
intact, but heavily damaged.
I remember getting a drink of water out of
their cooler there, and then we just started to put out
the car fires, and the rigs were going, ambulances. I
mean, there must have been 50 of these things burning
heavily. The Scott cylinders and the oxygen cylinders
were all letting go. They were all blowing up left and
right .
It was quiet in the beginning, but then the
radio transmissions started on the radio, and they just
didn't stop, who was stuck here. I remember hearing 9
truck being stuck in a staircase and then trying to
figure out how to get to them. I think it was 9
truck. I don't know. I don't know what truck it was.
Q. It was 6.
A. Was it 6? I heard that whole transmission of
them trying to tell where they were, and them not even
knowing that the building was gone, and -- but I knew
that they had help. I knew that people were going for
them.
I ended up with an officer who seemed to be
by himself trying to put out these car fires, so I just
hooked up with him, and we put out a bunch of them.
14
T . HEANEY
By this time, it was really, really getting
hard to see. My eyes were really, really bad. I tried
to get in touch with my officer several times. The
radio traffic really, really started getting bad,
because people were trapped. People were trying to
find out who was where.
It was very hard to get through. I heard him
calling me. I tried to respond. I don't know if he
ever got the message. I don't think I even saw him
again that day.
Time went by very quickly. Before I knew it,
it was four o'clock in the afternoon, something like
that, and I was losing it. I was pretty shot. ^^^|
really see too good.
So I went up to -- I went up to Broadway.
Someone said that they were -- a recall was being held
at City Hall Park, and I went up to -- I went up there
and I saw some of the guys from this firehouse who
reported for the recall, and I told them what I knew.
I knew that 102 was okay. I saw them in the
collapse. The collapses had already occurred, and they
15
T . HEANEY
were still alive, all of them. I told them who I knew
was still alive from 209. Again, I didn't know what
happened to the chauffeur or the officer. I just told
them who was alive.
I went back down. I went back down. I tried
to -- I flushed my eyes out with water. It wasn't
helping. I went back down. Finally, one of the guys
found me, and they put me in an ambulance, and they
sent me to the Staten Island Ferry Terminal. They
treated me there, and they put something in my eyes
that numbed them, and like a miracle I could see again,
and it didn't hurt. So I left there. I told them I'm
okay, and I went back.
And the last thing I remember was being on
Church Street, seeing 4 and 5 World Trade Center
blazing. Every floor of the building was going, and
just thousands and thousands of people coming now --
our guys, cops, people -- I don't know. Just thousands
of people just started showing up.
Within a half an hour, that medicine they
gave me wore off, and I was totally blind again. One
of the guys found me. It happened to be one of the
guys from this firehouse found me wandering around. I
couldn't see. I was -- I was shot. I just couldn't do
16
T . HEANEY
anything any more, and they sent me to Pace University,
where I got triaged and sent to the hospital from
there. And that's all.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Well, thanks for
your help, Todd.
And the time now is 11:30. This concludes
the interview.
</XMPX/BODYX/HTML>
File No. 9110256
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER BRIAN FITZPATRICK
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
B. FITZPATRICK
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The time is 4:00
o'clock p.m. and this is Battalion Chief Kenahan of the
New York City Fire Department from the Safety
Battalion. I'm conducting an interview with Brian
Fitzpatrick, Firefighter Sixth Grade from Ladder 22.
Q. Hi, Brian. Just tell us in your own words
what happened.
A. I'd say that morning, on September 11th, it
was 8:48 a.m., one gentleman at house watch, one of the
firefighters, saw on the news flash that Tower 1 was
hit, the north tower was hit by a plane. Everybody
started getting their gear ready because we knew we
were going. I was actually kind of excited because I
thought it was going to be a big job. We didn't know
the size of the plane that hit it. We just saw a lot
of smoke. Our tones went off and it was a voice alarm
and they were basically just calling companies off. It
basically ran up the west side. I remember it going
from 35, 40, 74, 25, straight up the west side they
were calling us, and we responded. I'm almost 100
percent sure that we were en route pretty much when the
second plane hit. I don't remember seeing it on the
news when the second plane hit. So I'm almost 100
percent sure we were en route.
B. FITZPATRICK
When we got down to the scene, it was pretty
hectic. We pulled up close to the north tower and then
saw that it was pretty ugly, a lot of debris falling, a
lot of people running. We moved the rig and went to
the west side command post. Ladder 22 and Ladder 25 I
remember seeing go to the north tower. I mean, I
apologize, the south tower. We were basically standing
fast just watching what was going on.
I remember hearing people shouting about a
third plane being in the air. I don't know if that's
what held us back from going right away. But we waited
basically until I saw our Lieutenant Farrington coming
back and we thought he had our orders where we were
going. So we were grabbing our gear and we were
walking out to meet him and we were in front of the
parking garage in front of 2 World Financial Center,
the Merrill Lynch building, which is basically on the
southwest corner of the north tower and right across
the street from the Vista International Hotel, and
that's when we heard a tremendous noise and it was
coming from the south tower, and we looked up and it
was coming down.
I basically froze and Rich Banaciski shoved
me and told me to run, and I remember there being a
B. FITZPATRICK
large number of people behind us as we turned to run.
I remember making it into the tunnel and it was this
incredible amount of wind, debris, heat. I remember
falling down, getting back up, and the guys were just
falling all over each other. It wasn't like we were
trying to kill each other, but it was all bets were
off, just run.
I made a right in the tunnel. I was with
some other guys. I can't remember the engine company.
They're from the east side. They were trying to force
a door in the right of the tunnel and it turned out to
be a storage shed. I remember when I fell down, I
picked up a mask and I put the mask on and I was buddy
breathing with a few of the guys because the air was so
thick and pulling out like baseball clumps of debris
out of your mouth. We knew that we couldn't force that
door .
My Lieutenant, Farrington, from Engine 76, we
heard him screaming and banging his tool against
something metal and I distinctly remember hearing his
voice. He had found the exit to the back of 2 World
Financial Center, and it was a maze of stairways, but
we got out. He found the exit, set up a search rope,
brought it back, and he got out about I'd probably say
B. FITZPATRICK
40 guys out of the tunnel.
Then we exited out by the marina, the North
Cove Yacht Harbor, where we all basically just took a
knee and we waited a couple of minutes. Everybody was
in shock. We didn't know what happened. We just
thought it was debris or an explosion or a secondary
explosion or another bomb inside the building or
another plane.
We got up and we made our way around through
what turned out to be the North End Avenue and we hit
Vesey. I'd say probably 25 minutes had elapsed by
now. We were walking up Vesey and we got to Vesey and
the West Side Highway and we were making the turn. I
remember seeing the bridge as we turned and somebody
came running by us saying the north tower was leaning.
I didn't even know the south tower fell yet. I looked
up and I actually saw the antenna coming down.
I just took off running again. I headed
straight down Vesey. I wound up breaking up with the
rest of my company, and I wound up by the railing by
the water. I remember there was a bunch of senior men
there and they were getting out of their bunker gear
and they were getting ready to jump in the water
because you could see ferries out in the distance
B. FITZPATRICK
waving us on. They said, "Get out of your gear. We're
going in the water."
When I was younger, I used to work out in the
Hamptons on people's boats and I remember currents. I
knew the currents down there would just kill us, you
know, they'd find us in South Jersey. So I just buried
myself in the fence and hoped for the best.
The debris cloud pretty much caught us, but
it seemed like right by the time it hit North End it
stopped. I think the wind was blowing a different
direction. It was pulling it all east. That's what it
turned out to be because I remember the command post,
everything that was set up later was set up on the west
side because the wind was taking all the smoke and
debris east.
I wandered around looking for the rest of my
company, which was Rich Banaciski, Richie Batista,
Billy Reynolds, George Rodriguez, and George was with
the rig and we were sure that he was under it, and
Lieutenant Farrington. It took me, if I had to guess,
I'd probably say about 45 minutes before I found the
rest of my company and that was on the West Side
Highway and everybody was just lying on the West Side
Highway. By that time there was just hordes of firemen
B. FITZPATRICK
coming down the West Side Highway whatever way they
could get there. I guess it was the recall. I don't
know if that was hours later, but I remember seeing
guys that weren't working that day that came down, and
we were all just waiting to get back in.
When they let us back in, it was early
afternoon. I'd say it was probably 1:30, 2:00
o'clock. We searched 140 West, the New York Telephone
Company building, for 15, 16 floors. It was myself,
George Rodriguez, Doug Robinson, a battalion aide, and
Captain Pellegrinelli. We forced numerous amounts of
doors, but we were basically searching in the wreckage
of, if you were on West Side Highway, it would be the
exposure four side of the telephone company building.
It had gaping, massive holes that you could fit a house
in, you know, what it looked like from the inside. So
we basically crawled in the rubble there and looked for
victims on each floor because the holes took up several
floors.
We heard a Mayday for everybody to get out of
the building -- no, I'm sorry, an urgent, three
urgents, and we came out of the building. I'd say that
was like an hour and a half, two hours later. We were
then positioned on Vesey Street between North End and
B. FITZPATRICK
the West Side Highway because there was an imminent
collapse on 7 World Trade, and it did collapse.
As far as other companies, I don't know. I
knew from sticking my head out the window going down
that we were by 35 and 40. I think they were ahead of
us when we pulled in. I'm sorry. 35 Truck and I can't
remember the engine down there, 25, 74, I think 47 was
there.
Q. These are all the rigs that were on West
street?
A. Yes. We were headed down together. From
what I saw, we all pretty much met up on the West Side
Highway at the same time because the alarms went off
and we're all fairly the same distance from the on
ramps.
That's about it. That's my story. I wish I
could be more helpful.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : No, that's been
fine. You've been very helpful. Thank you for your
cooperation.
THE WITNESS: No problem.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is
4:10 and this interview is completed.
File No. 9110257
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER LOUIS GIACONELLI
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
L. GIACONELLI
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Today's date is
December 6, 2001. The time is 6:52 p.m. and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety Battalion
of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with Louis Giaconelli.
Q. Please tell us anything you remember about
the events of September 11th.
A. I reported in for work before the change of
tours and I was already ready to drive. I was assigned
chauffeur that day in Engine 53. I was upstairs in the
bunk room when the first plane hit the first tower. I
heard some of the other firefighters talking about it.
I slid the pole, made sure I had all my gear on the rig
and made sure that the rig was full of fuel.
Then the second plane hit the second tower.
I was pretty sure after the first plane had hit the
first tower that we'd be going down there, and when the
second plane hit, I definitely knew we were going down
there. Then we were assigned on the second fifth alarm
to the second tower that was struck.
I started to drive down there. I went on
various streets. I do remember going down Lexington
Avenue to 97th Street, I believe, and then I went down
5th Avenue to the 90th Street entrance to Central Park,
L. GIACONELLI
and I went down Central Park Drive on the east side to
72nd Street, across 72nd Street, and I got on the West
Drive and came out of the park by Tavern on the Green
on 66th Street, I think, and Central Park West. I went
down Broadway to 57th Street, made a right, and I went
to 11th Avenue, where we started to pick up radio
transmissions that we were to respond down 11th Avenue
because the police had opened up lanes for us or they
had corridors open for us. So I went down 11th Avenue
and, sure enough, we picked up a few police cars in
front of us or vans and we made it down there pretty
quick.
When I got there, there were already a
significant amount of rigs there, and I found a parking
spot along the right-hand side, along the west side of
West Street, and I actually was close to a hydrant that
I could have hooked up to if I had to. I noticed that
rigs were parked on both sides of the street and that
there was a lane open straight down.
So when we got there, we were driving down,
obviously, we had a clear view of the towers. We knew
that both of them were on fire. There were thousands
of people running up West Street when we were driving
down, thousands of people. So I parked the rig.
L. GIACONELLI
Everybody got out, got their masks on, and I yelled to
my officer, I said, "I'm not going to stay here with
the rig." I said, "I'm going to come with you guys."
He said, "Yeah, definitely." So I had all my bunker
gear with me and I had a spare mask. So I put it all
on and I went down with the company. We walked down
West Street and we reported in to the command post
staging area.
As we were walking down, I was just looking
up and I saw it was a lot of smoke, but it was up
high. It was a crystal clear day and there was a lot
of stuff in the air, in the sky, floating around, and I
was trying to get my bearings. I saw something weird
coming off the building and I looked up and I didn't
know what it was and I was trying to get a sense of
what was happening, if things were falling on us, but
it turned out they were bodies. There were people
jumping off the top of the buildings. So then I
realized how bad it was up there.
We got in to the command post staging area
and my officer Reported in and tried to get us an
assignment. So we stood in the staging area, which was
in the driveway to an underground garage going into the
World Financial Center. We stood there for a few
L. GIACONELLI
minutes and made sure we had all our gear on, and we
were trying to figure out what was going on and it was
a calamity. A lot of smoke, a lot of debris coming
down, bodies coming down, landing right in front of
us.
So while we were waiting to get our
assignment, Captain John Sudnik, who I knew from 23
Engine, I think, was giving out the assignments and he
asked my officer if we could move some rigs to make
sure the lanes were clear coming down to the World
Financial Center. So it was myself -- I wasn't the
only chauffeur working. I know Kevin McGovern was
working, too. He was a chauffeur. Eddie Cachia was
working also and he was a chauffeur. So we had those
two guys and two probies with us.
So between the three of us, we dropped our
masks and all our gear, we kept our bunker gear on,
though, and we walked back up West Street to see if any
rigs had to be moved, like he asked us to do, and we
found one or two. I know I myself moved one or two, I
don't recall, that were blocking the path a little bit,
and I got them out of the way. Then we got together
again and we all started walking back down West Street.
I remember passing underneath that north
L. GIACONELLI
pedestrian bridge, and I was just about to get back to
the entrance to the driveway to the staging area and I
heard this sound, and it was like a train, like a huge
train rumbling, and I knew that something was coming
off the building, but I didn't know what it was. So I
think Lieutenant Doherty and Eddie Cachia were in front
of me. We were kind of walking in single file, and I
think those two guys were in front of me and I was
third or fourth. I don't recall. I know the two
probies were behind me and I think Kevin McGovern was a
little behind me, too.
So I remember Lieutenant Doherty and Eddie
Cachia went for the driveway and I said to myself I
wasn't going to make it, but I knew I had to find
someplace to ditch. So I looked to my right and a
High-Rise 2 Unit, which I didn't notice at the time
what it was, but I figured out later a High-Rise 2 Unit
was parked on the grass to the right of the staging
area driveway and just in front of the entrance to the
big glass atrium going into the World Financial
Center. I didn't think I could make it to the entrance
of the building. I think that's where Kevin McGovern
went, and I don't know where the probies went.
So I just dove underneath the High-Rise 2
L. GIACONELLI
Unit. I dove underneath there, and just as I got
underneath there, the first building had collapsed. I
didn't realize the whole building had collapsed. I
knew something significant had come down, but I didn't
realize at the time that it was the whole building. So
I dove under the rig and there was another guy
underneath there with me. It turned out he was a fire
patrolman. He wasn't a firefighter. But we were under
the rig and the next thing I knew, I heard the crash, I
felt the impact, and it went from day to night.
We couldn't see anything. I couldn't see
anything, and then, of course, we couldn't breathe
anymore, and the guy next to me starts yelling that he
couldn't breathe, couldn't breathe. I had my hood
around my neck and I was able to get it up over my
nose, and between breathing through my hood and into my
coat, I was able to breathe for a while. I just laid
there for a few minutes and tried to stay calm and get
the other guy calmed down and I just waited until I
thought everything was safe again.
So after a few minutes we were able to see
some light again, and I started to crawl out and I dug
myself out and then I poked my head out from under the
rig. The other guy came out with me and we stood up
L. GIACONELLI
and kind of shook each other, made sure we were okay.
I said, "Are you all right?" He said, "Yes." He said,
"Are you all right?" I said, "Yeah, we're all
right."
So with that we kind of went our separate
ways, and I just took a quick look around and I don't
recall ever looking up. I don't really ever recall
looking up. Not that there was anything to see. It
was all dust and debris and there really wasn't much to
see.
So I made my way back just a couple of feet
into the driveway and I went looking for my mask and I
found it. It was right where I had left it and it was
buried, but I was able to dig it out. Most of our
equipment was still all there and everybody was clearly
shook. I don't mean shook that they were scared. They
obviously had been affected by the impact of this
thing, and we were all covered with dust and dirt and
debris and you couldn't breathe and that stuff. So I
got my mask on, but by the time I got it on and hooked
up, I didn't have to put it on my face. I was able to
breathe normally. I made my way down into the entrance
of the underground garage and into the World Financial
Center .
L. GIACONELLI
So we decided to make our way up the stairway
of that basement of that building up into the upper
floors. When I got into the building and we started
finding our way in there, we were kind of strung out
and I was still with Lieutenant Doherty, I think, and
Eddie Cachia. Kevin McGovern and the two probies, I
don't know where they were. I remember trying to find
my way through this maze down there and I finally found
a staircase and made my way up.
Somewhere along in that process I came across
the members of Ladder 16. Danny Williams was the
officer I remember and I know Stevie Wright was there,
Joe Petrich, Oscar Davila, and I can't remember who
else. But they had an EMS worker, I don't know if he
was a New York City EMS worker, but he was definitely
an EMS worker or EMT, on a stretcher, not a board, not
a back board, a stretcher, and they asked me if I could
help them carry this guy out. I kind of said, "Well,
what's wrong with him?" They said, "We think he has a
broken leg and a broken arm."
So he was kind of a big guy and they were
having a really tough time trying to get him up the
stairs because it was a real tight staircase and this
guy was big and we had all our gear on. I mean, I had
10
L. GIACONELLI
all my bunker gear on and my mask, and we were trying
to carry this guy up. I think there were about four or
five guys from Ladder 16, me and maybe one other guy, I
don't recall, and we struggled to get this guy up these
stairs. We struggled so bad that even at one point I
asked the guy if it was possible that he could walk
because we were having such a hard time with him, and
the guy said he didn't think so.
Anyway, we wound up carrying him up. I don't
know how many flights of stairs it was, but we got him
up. I think it was probably at least three, maybe four
flights, and we popped a door and we wound up in the
huge atrium or lobby of the World Financial Center. We
carried him out and I made it through the building and
came out on the back side of the building. So now I
was in I think it's the harbor area. I don't know what
it ' s called .
Q. Marina?
A. The marina area, I guess. So that building
is 2 World Financial Center. That's the Merrill Lynch
building, I guess.
So I came out on the other side and I found
Lieutenant Doherty from 53 and Eddie Cachia from 53 and
they were searching around there, and we talked for a
11
L. GIACONELLI
few minutes and made sure we were okay and tried to
digest what had happened to us. We started searching
around, and I was curious or worried about what had
happened to Kevin McGovern and the two probies.
Somehow or another they went in one direction and I
went in the other. I wound up going into, looking at
the map here, it says the Winter Garden, which was this
glass atrium that I was in.
So I went into the glass atrium and I started
working my way to the front of the building. When I
was in there, it was pretty desolate. I didn't see any
other firefighters and I really didn't see any other
people, except I do remember seeing a few civilians
walking around and they looked like they were workers
from the building, not us, but maintenance workers that
had semi-uniforms on.
So I started working my way to the front of
the building and I got to the front door of the
building. When I got to the front door of the
building, I took a quick look up and I saw that the
north tower was directly in front of me, still burning,
and I don't really remember looking for the south
tower, but my view might have been obstructed at that
point because the Winter Garden door was a little set
12
L. GIACONELLI
back from the World Financial Center entrance.
So I took a few steps outside the entrance of
the building onto the stairway there, and the High-Rise
2 Unit that I had been under when the first building
came down was parked right there on the right-hand side
on the grass. I took a few steps and I was looking
around, and the next thing I knew, I heard the same
sound that I'd heard when the first building had come
down. So I didn't have to look up. I knew what the
sound was. I didn't have to look up. It was the same
sound I had heard when the first building came down.
So, again, I was caught out in the open and I
didn't really know where to go. I guess instantly I
decided not to go under the High-Rise 2 Unit. I
decided to turn and try and run back into the
building. So that's what I did.
As I ran through the door, I remember saying
to myself close the door behind you, close the door
behind you. But, of course, I didn't really have time
to do that or even attempt it. I just tried to run as
fast as I could, and I didn't get very far. The
building came down and, of course, the concussion from
the impact blew me down and knocked me down and blew my
helmet off my head and sent me flying down I guess it
13
L. GIACONELLI
was the hallway of the main entrance of the building.
There was a tremendous crash and glass and
then the same effect that had happened the first time.
It went from day to night. A huge, huge blast of hot
wind gusting and smoke and dust and all kinds of debris
hit me and blew me over and covered me, and the same
thing. I just tried to get my head down into my hood
and my face inside of my coat where I could try and
breathe again because it was the same thing. I
couldn't see and I couldn't breathe. It was just a
repeat of the same thing that happened to me the first
time.
So I waited, it seemed like an eternity, but
I waited a few seconds, and then, of course, I
remembered that I had my mask on my back this time. So
I reached back and turned it on or made sure it was on,
I don't recall, and grabbed the face piece. Of course,
I blew into the face piece like you're supposed to do
and it didn't make any difference. The face piece was
full of debris and dust and who knows what else. I
took a couple of quick hits off it and I got two
mouthfuls and nosefuls and my eyes all full of stuff
that was in the mask and the stuff that was all around
me.
14
L. GIACONELLI
Eventually that cleared up and I was able to
wear the mask. I got my mask on and, of course, I
started hearing some screaming and yelling around me.
So there obviously were some other people around, and
then I remembered that I had seen a few civilians or
these maintenance workers in the building to my right
as I had walked in, so then now they were to my left.
So I started crawling along the floor because
I couldn't see anything, and I was right alongside the
wall and I got my right hand on the wall and started
following the wall along, and I found my helmet. Hard
to believe, but I found my helmet. It had been blown
down the hallway a distance and I came across it and I
was able to get it on my head. I had also had a
flashlight. So I just crawled along the wall, crawled
along the wall, and I heard a guy screaming in front of
me and, sure enough, I eventually came to him and found
him. I grabbed him and told him he was okay, and I
just said, "Stay with me and we'll find our way out."
As I started going along, I came across the
other people that I heard yelling or screaming in the
atrium. So I got them all together and I had them all
hold on to me or follow me along the wall and somehow
or another I saw light. Even though it was pitch black
15
L. GIACONELLI
where I was and we couldn't see, I saw light coming
from somewhere. I said, "Let's go. Let's see where
this light is coming from."
It turned out that it was a storefront and
the light was coming from another atrium that was
behind the store that was in the atrium. I don't
remember if the door was open or whatever. I didn't
have to force the door, but we were able to open it.
Maybe it just swung open. I popped in there and it was
clear as a bell in there. We could see and we could
breathe. So I got all these people in there.
What these guys were doing, and I give them a
lot of credit, these maintenance guys, they had a
woman, a black woman, I remember, and she was kind of
large also and they, much to their credit, were trying
to carry her out of this building. They were inside
the building, but they still got impacted by the
collapse of the north tower.
So I got them all into the storefront and got
them all calmed down. They were pretty excited and
nervous. I got them all calmed down and I said,
"Okay. We're okay here. Just stay here," I said,
"and I'll find a way out and then I'll come back and
get you. So just stay here. I'll find a way out and
16
L. GIACONELLI
I'll come back and get you."
I put my mask back on again and I had my
flashlight, the same thing, just followed along the
right-hand side of the wall, worked my way around. I
went through the whole glass atrium and I found an exit
door and I popped out, and again I popped out onto the
harbor side of the World Financial Center. So then I
got my bearings and I left the door open and I retraced
my steps back to the same store that I had left the
people in and got them out. I counted heads and I made
sure I had, I believe it was seven people. I made sure
I had seven, and I said, "Okay. Let's just follow me
and we'll just follow our way out." I just followed
the wall all the way back and they followed me, and I
got them back to that exit door and got them out into
the harbor area and that was it. That was the last I
saw of them.
Then I started looking around, and it was
pretty desolate down there. There was really nobody
around. Off in the distance I saw my Lieutenant, Bobby
Doherty, and Eddie Cachia from 53, and they had been
down by the seawall when the second tower had come
down. They said they had wedged themselves up against
it and still got blasted there, too, tremendously. I
17
L. GIACONELLI
guess you could say they were kind of far away but
really not far away enough, and they were impacted
enough that Bobby Doherty said he actually thought he
was going to have to jump in the water to get away from
it.
So then we regrouped, the three of us, and we
didn't know what to do really. It was clear that where
we had been had been completely demolished and
devastated, and we were in pretty bad shape. Our eyes
were full of stuff and, of course, our noses and our
mouths were all full of debris and we were trying to
breathe. Because we knew we couldn't use our masks
constantly. We would run out of air. So in the open
air we had to breathe the air. We just couldn't use
our tanks for any length of time.
So we started working our way north around
the back of the World Financial Center, and I guess we
either went through the back, the glass atrium behind
the American Express building, or we went on -- I'm
looking at the map here. It looks like maybe North End
Avenue. I don't recall how we found our way to Vesey
Street. But somehow or another we found our way to
Vesey Street, and then we went over to West Street and
we started to walk north.
18
L. GIACONELLI
We went north about as far as Barclay, I
believe, and we sat down along the wall there and we
tried to collect our thoughts and figure out what to do
and what had happened to us and all that. I don't
think we ever really realized that the two buildings
had come down. I guess we maybe knew it but we weren't
sure. We sat down and, again, we were surrounded by
hundreds of people, a lot of cops. Everybody was
covered with dirt and dust and debris.
I noticed a lot of people had cell phones.
So for some reason or another we asked somebody if we
could use their cell phone, and Kevin McGovern called
his wife and we asked his wife to notify my family and
Bobby Doherty's family that we were okay.
Then we sat there for a few minutes and we
came across a lot of people, but I remember
specifically running into Pete Clinton, who was the
chauffeur of Engine 22, and Joey Graziano, who was the
chauffeur of Ladder 13, and they looked shook, but Pete
Clinton was all banged up. He wasn't wearing bunker
gear. He was driving. He just had shorts on and a
work shirt, and he was all banged up and bruised and
covered with dust and clearly distraught. Joe Graziano
had all his gear on. As it turned out, they were the
19
L. GIACONELLI
only survivors of their company, and I told them to
stay with us. They stayed with us for a while, and
then we decided to make our way back down West Street
back to the site to see what we could do. We didn't
stay up there very long, maybe ten or 15 minutes.
So we made our way back down West Street and
on the way down I started looking for our rig. I
didn't know where our rig was. I couldn't remember
where I parked it. Of course, the whole landscape now
changed, so I had no idea where it was. So we started
walking down West Street and I was looking for the rig,
looking for the rig, and I couldn't find it. I thought
for sure that it had been crushed.
So we made our way back down as far as we
could and started searching around, and I asked
somebody if they knew where 53 ' s rig was and somebody,
I don't recall who, said they thought they saw it, it
was over on the west side, somebody had moved it. So I
told Bobby Doherty, "Let's see if we can find the rig,"
because, obviously, if we could find the rig, we could
get some tools and maybe fresh bottles for our masks
and start working down at the site.
So all of us took a walk over on Vesey Street
and, sure enough, there was the rig. It was hooked up
20
L. GIACONELLI
to one of the marine units. It was already hooked up
and pumping water. It was relaying water to another
engine and they were supplying a tower ladder with
water. I guess they were pouring water I think on the
Customs Building. We also noticed that 7 World
Financial Center was fully involved there, too.
We started getting whatever gear we needed
off the rig, and there was another chauffeur working on
53 ' s rig and he was supplying water. He asked me if I
was the chauffeur of 53, and I said yes, I was. He
said, "Would you mind taking over here? I'd like to
get back to my unit." I said yeah, sure, I would, and
I basically operated for the rest of the day while 53 's
guys went down to the site. I went over there a few
times, but I basically operated 53' s rig for most of
the day pumping water, relaying it to the other engines
and the tower ladder.
I did go over to the site a few times to try
and help out, but my eyes were very bad and I couldn't
really see very well. About 2:00 or 3:00 in the
afternoon, I finally had gotten them washed out once,
but it didn't work, and I started going to the triage
areas and washing my eyes out, washing my eyes out, and
they just weren't getting any better.
21
L. GIACONELLI
I wound up staying down there. I was down
there from about 9:20 in the morning until maybe 10:00,
10:30 at night, and we wound up going to the main
medical facility and they told me my eyes were no good,
they had to take me to the hospital, and they wound up
taking me and Eddie Cachia and I think Bobby Doherty,
too, to the hospital, where they worked on my eyes and
checked me out for anything else that was wrong.
One thing I forgot to say was, after the
second building had collapsed and we worked our way up
West Street, I had run into the two probies that I had
been looking for all morning, Mike Catalano and Dan
Schofield, and they were okay. I still to this day
don't really know where they went. I don't know if
they ran into the Winter Garden glass atrium or if they
just went up north on West street after the first
building had collapsed, and I don't know where they
were when the second building had collapsed.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Okay. Well, thanks
a lot, Louie. We appreciate your cooperation. The
time now is 7:22 p.m. This concludes the interview.
File No. 911025?
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER VINCENT PALMIERI
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
V. PALMIERI
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: The date is December
6, 2001. The time is now 11:08 a.m. This is
Battalion Chief John Malkin of the Safety
Battalion of the New York City Fire Department.
I'm conducting an interview today with
Firefighter first Vincent Palmieri of Engine
Company Number 6 regarding events of September 11,
2001. We are in the quarters of Engine 4. There
is no one else present in the room and the
interview begins now.
Q. Say whatever you like.
A. Basically I was on my way into the city that
day through New Jersey when I first heard of a plane
hitting the Trade Center and I tuned into 1010 WINS to
hear what was going on. Being from lower Manhattan, I
knew all the companies would be there. As I was going
further in on the Turnpike, I started coming in through
the Holland Tunnel when the second plane hit. I was
able to actually see the Trade Center, both of them,
smoke coming from them.
I went through the Holland Tunnel, got in,
started heading towards my fire house, which is 6
Engine. I got to 6 Engine and got my gear together,
changed, put my uniform on. I took a quick look at the
V. PALMIERI
cars outside quarters so I would have an idea of who
was on duty that day, but I really didn't look at the
riding list or anything like that. I made a quick mark
in the journal so someone would have some sort of idea
that I was on my way over. I just started heading over
to where I knew the company would be, or the lobby
command post would probably be set up in the north
tower .
I walked up Park Row, made a right, went down
Vesey Street, cut across Vesey Street, crossed Church
and started heading towards the entrance of 5 World
Trade Center, which is right on that corner. Just as I
was about to get maybe about 20 or 30 feet from the
entrance of 5 World Trade Center, is when the south
tower began to collapse.
I was with a female police sergeant, a group
of civilians and I got everybody against the building
wall which is right by Borders and Books and we took
cover under the overpass of 5 World Trade Center. Then
basically the collapse occurred. I wasn't totally sure
if we were caught in it or not. Just basically waited
until we had some sort of visibility to try to make my
way out.
I waited a period of time, I'm not sure of
V. PALMIERI
the time here, because I lost track of time. I waited
till I had a little bit of visibility, turned my light
on and told everyone to stay with me. I decided the
best thing to do would be to get away from the area,
since I had no idea of what was going on. We were
going to try to head to the end of the building line
following the wall and then head diagonally across
Church to the opposite corner of Vesey, then try to go
up Vesey and get out of here.
I had everybody stay with me. There was one
gentleman, a civilian, who was cut pretty bad. I
believe it was on his right arm. I told him just
follow along. We would get him medical help as soon as
I could. As we followed along the wall, I came into a
group of ESU officers, so that was right outside of
Borders and Books on that corner. They had donned air
masks. I think they were either ESU or Port
Authority. They weren't firemen. The masks looked
different and they weren't in fireman gear.
They were headed actually back towards the
entrance of 5 World Trade Center to try to go in the
building. I was like, guys, I don't know where you are
going, but we don't know what happened. I wouldn't try
to go in. Let's get out and find out what's going on
V. PALMIERI
before we go in. They said good idea. They turned
around, I said we got to go this way out. They started
going along the wall like we were.
When I reached the end of the wall, they went
one way and I led, and I stayed with the group of
people. I brought them across the street like I said,
diagonally across to the northeast corner of Church and
Vesey. There was a construction awning up there. I
went underneath there. There was a beauty parlor like
on the corner. A few stores in off Vesey there was a
deli .
Some police officers had already taken the
front door to the deli. They took out the glass and
they were getting people inside there. There was still
a lot of smoke, but visibility was pretty decent, not
totally dark.
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: It's 11:12. I had
to shut the tape. We were interrupted by somebody
coming into the room. We now resume at 11:13
hours .
A. Again, Palmieri. Basically, there was an
officer, he took out the door to some sort of deli. He
was getting people in there. We were still in a light
smoke condition, not too bad, but we didn't know what
V. PALMIERI
was going on. People that I was with and a female
sergeant, I told the officer get them in there, one of
the guys is hurt bad, you got to get him in an
ambulance. I'm going to go back and try to find my
company. I just wanted to find my company and find out
where they were. I knew where they were probably at,
so I turned around and as I'm getting back into Vesey
Street a Suburban comes down Vesey Street, a Fire
Department Suburban comes down Vesey Street.
A bunch of guys jump out, I go up to the
officer who was in the passenger side. I said where
are you guys from. They said they are from the Rock,
research and development, if I believe correctly. I
told them okay.
During this I only had my bunker coat on and
my helmet. After the collapse I dropped my bunker
pants. I figured we would be walking up 80 flights
either way, so I was carrying the bunker pants. I left
the bunker pants after the collapse. I only had the
coat and a helmet. The officer asked me, are you all
right, are you okay? I said yes, I have no mask and no
pants. They were gearing up, they were going to go in
and try to do a search and find some guys, so I told
one of the guys, look, I only got shorts on, I'm ready
V. PALMIERI
to go, do you have an extra pair of bunker pants? He
gave me his bunker pants and his boots. I couldn't get
a mask from them, but I was able to get an axe and I
got a search rope. I think there were 3 firemen and
two Lieutenants. They asked me to stay with this other
Lieutenant, he seemed a little bit older than the rest
of them and he walked with a limp. I don't know any of
the guys ' names .
There was also an Engine parked on the
corner, which would be the southeast corner of Vesey
and Church. He was hooked up to a hydrant and he had
the spicket going and the water flowing. I went over I
told the guys wait up a minute. I washed off, got the
stuff out of my eyes, cleared my mouth as best as I
could and took a drink.
Then they started heading up Vesey Street,
that would be westbound down Vesey, along the World
Trade Center site. I was with the other Lieutenant,
like I said, so we were maybe a half block behind
them. I said Lou look, I know the area down here. I
have been here a long time. I don't think it's the
best move for us to walk up Vesey Street. We don't
even know what happened.
At that point I don't think either of us
V. PALMIERI
could look up. There was still too much smoke to know
that the entire south tower had collapsed. We thought
maybe a portion collapsed. So I said I think we should
go one block north and come down Barclay, which is what
we did. We went down Church and started to come down
Barclay and that was just me, this Lieutenant and it
was actually an off duty former union president,
Boyle .
We met up with him. He was looking for his
son, who was in 33 Engine that day. The rest of the
guys just decided to continue up Vesey Street. I never
ran into them again for the rest of the day so I don't
know what happened to them.
This officer and I were walking down Barclay
Street. I don't know the exact -- how far down we
got. Also with Boyle when we heard the same noise that
I had heard before. I knew it was the second building
starting to collapse, the north tower collapsing. The
officer I was with had his officer's tool. We just
happened to be under a construction type awning and in
front of 2 glass doors to an entrance to one of the
buildings on Vesey. I don't remember the exact
address, but I know it is DC 37 's headquarters, I
think .
V. PALMIERI
He made the move, he started to take the
front doors. I had the axe. I moved with him. We
took the doors, went into the lobby, looking to see if
anybody was in the lobby. At this point the building
continued to collapse, the building is surrounded by
smoke. We ended up meeting an Engine Company, I
believe, from Brooklyn in the lobby. Half the company
was there. Half of their company was still in the
street .
One of the guys was like my officer, an
Engine officer and the chauffeur was still out in the
street. We made it into the lobby and I was like,
there's a lot of dust out there. It doesn't look like
the collapse came this far up because the other
buildings would have blocked it. So I believe their
rig was parked on, you don't have it marked here, and I
don't know the name of the street.
Their rig was either - I don't believe it was
West Street, this street here. It's between West
Street and West Broadway. Between Barclay and Murray.
I think it's Greenwich Street. I think that is the
name of the street.
Q. Greenwich?
A. Greenwich. I think that's the street they
10
V. PALMIERI
were on. So he took the search rope and him and one of
the guys decided they wanted to go out and find their
officer and the engine chauffeur. We said all right,
we will wait here. We will give you a few minutes. If
you don't come back we will follow the rope out and
come get you.
We took a feed and waited for them to come
back and the Engine officer and the chauffeur were
fine. They just took a feed. They were in the street
but they were okay. There was, I don't believe, any
serious injuries.
Basically, then we were in the lobby for a
few minutes. A couple of guys made phone calls to
their wives and stuff. The original officer that I was
with from the company from Research and Development, I
don't know if he worked there, but he came with them
from the Rock, decided to go out on his own and try to
find his guys now. I decided I would stay with this
Engine Company and operate with them as a company. I
tried to get them to come around with me and look for
the main entrance for the north tower of the Trade
Center to try to get in.
Basically that's what we did. We stayed
together. We walked out down Barclay, got to West
11
V. PALMIERI
Street, came up West Street. I noticed an Engine
hooked up with a couple of lines coming off of it. I
noticed he had a hydrant, he had a good hydrant, he had
good pressure, it looked like. He was right on the
corner of Barclay and West. As we walked up West
Street we could see a lot of cars burning, a lot of
smoke, other than the smoke from the collapse. There
were cars burning all over Vesey, up around the park, a
couple of rigs, a dumpster, right on the corner of
Vesey and West burning.
Of course 6 World Trade Center was right on
the corner of West and Vesey burning. Still there was
a lot of smoke. I wasn't sure it was a total collapse
of both buildings. I didn't realize that until much
later on in the day.
I told the officer, we've got an Engine here
with good lines if you want to get a line and try to
get something in operation. He said fine, let's go up
to Vesey, go a little closer and try to get an
assessment of what's going on. Like I said, there was
a huge dumpster on that corner going, right next to the
AT&T building.
So he said, all right, go back with a couple
of guys. We searched and grabbed one of the two and a
12
V. PALMIERI
half inch lines that were laying in the street and we
started to operate it into the dumpster. At around
that time we were there for a little while. He went
off just a little bit to see what was going on. Trying
to find guys, find out what we should do.
Vesey Street -- I don't remember if it was
totally blocked at the time, but there was definitely,
definitely stuff across Vesey Street that you could
see. You couldn't get totally down Vesey. Maybe all
the way to West Broadway. You could see the damage at
7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T
building. You could see the damage - 5 World Trade
Center was burning. There was an aerial ladder up at 5
World Trade Center. I saw guys operating up into 5
World Trade Center trying to do some sort of search.
I'm sorry, let me correct myself. 6 World Trade
Center, right on the corner of West and Vesey.
There was an aerial ladder parked on West
Street operating to the concourse type area on the 6
World Trade Center looking for guys and they were
trying to do a search. At this time the truck was
intact. 6 World Trade Center was almost fully involved
in fire. We operated the line into the dumpster. We
stayed there for a little while and then I saw one of
13
V. PALMIERI
the first members of my company to come in and it was
actually Captain Sakowich. He had walked up West
Street. He saw me. During the time that I went back
to the Engine to get the line I was able to get a mask
off the Engine. Captain Sakowich came up to me, asked
me if I seen the guys or whatever.
I said Captain, do you know where Engine 6
would be. I was trying to operate with these guys.
The walkway on West Street for the north tower was
down. So there was no way to walk straight into what
would have been the old lobby of the north tower, where
6 Engine would have been. So he said I'm going to try
to find a way around. Stay here. He said give me your
mask for now. I stayed with the company.
Then I found another member from my company,
maybe, I don't know, 20, half an hour later,
Firefighter Jeff Straub, hooked up with me. I told him
Sakowich was around. He was trying to find a way over
to where the guys were. He said let's not wait here.
Let's try to find Sakowich or let's try to find our own
way in.
We proceeded to walk down Vesey Street, West
Street was totally blocked. We couldn't get across.
We got to the corner of West and Vesey. Chief Nigro
14
V. PALMIERI
was there and I saw Chief Pfeifer and a couple of other
guys from the Battalion. I don't know if they
responded in or they were there prior to the collapse.
Basically Nigro -- a lot of the officers were
trying to get information from Chief Nigro as far as to
what type of operations he wanted them to commence.
Chief Pfeifer was just saying
I don't know what happened. Let's just get everybody
down Vesey towards the water away from the scene.
Myself and firefighters Straub had just broke off from
them and we walked around through the World Financial
Center area, which would be through the lobby of 3
World Financial Center, the American Express building,
out into where the Winter Garden is, but on the
outside, not actually into the Winter Garden. You
could see the Winter Garden had took a lot of damage
also .
While we were on the outside near the marina,
walking near the marina, because we were going to try
to come around up Liberty to see if we could gain
access from West Street there, we encountered another
group of firemen that were carrying a fireman on a
stokes basket. I don't know what company they were
15
V. PALMIERI
from, but I do have pictures of that. A photographer
took pictures of us doing the carry so I could give you
his name if you need it, in a pinch, probably the
road.
There was only maybe four or five firemen
helping to carry this guy, so we helped to carry him.
They needed help. We carried him to a boat that was
waiting. It was a marine company boat. I don't know
what marine company. They got him on the boat. I
believe they were taking him to a Jersey hospital.
They really didn't say. They got him on the boat. Me
and Jeff stayed together and we started again to come
around Liberty Street. Liberty and West in that area,
then we came across, I found Captain Mallery from 10.
I saw Captain -- I think you already spoke to him.
From 10 Engine. I asked him where their guys were. If
they know how their guys are doing. They basically
didn't know much about where their guys were or
anything or where my company was .
Again West Street was pretty well blocked.
There wasn't any good access into the area then.
That's when we basically started to realize it was a
total collapse, so we tried to make our way into this
pile or into the area where my company would have
16
V. PALMIERI
been. We went down. Liberty Street was pretty well
blocked. We couldn't go down that. We continued down
West. I think we went up Cedar, then took Washington
back to Albany to try to get to where 10 Engine's
quarters were and see what was going on over there and
see if we could come in kind of like from the southeast
corner or so.
I got over by 10 Engine's quarters. There
was a lot of damage to the quarters. There was a lot
of destruction in the street there. That wasn't any
other easier access. We ended up somewhere around this
area again, meeting up with Captain Sakowich. Trying
to get back around through the Winter Garden area over
there. Sakowich and Firefighter Straub, then, and
myself, we walked around looking for guys and basically
the day just dragged on. We would get separated, I
would run to numerous different guys that I know
throughout the job and trying to find reports of who is
where and stuff like that.
Eventually we end up finding the easiest way
back out on to the pile is through the Winter Garden
where the glass had taken a lot of damage, but it was
still intact at this point. Then we got out on to the
pile there and started doing some searches over there.
17
V. PALMIERI
As the day dragged on, again I got separated
from Jeff and Captain Sakowich. I kind of was
operating on my own for a while with a lot of other
guys. I don't know even know who they were. I just
started getting fatigued. I came out just to take a
rest a little bit, out into this area here again on
Vesey and West and I ran into Firefighter Bob Emans . I
asked Bob, Bob, were you here, who was working, et
cetera. He gave me a quick rundown of who knew was on
the rig, where the rig was, what he was doing. He was
an extra man. He jumped on the rig that day and he was
assisting the chauffeur.
So he capped up the hook up and supplied the
Siamese and then that's when the collapse occurred. I
had absolutely no idea of the time of the day. Bob
might have had a better idea and Bob was like look, I
think the best thing we should do right now is go back
to 6 Engine, try to regroup, find out who is where,
definitely who is missing, who might be in the hospital
and come back and get back. We got to get something to
drink. We need something to eat. It was a long day.
I was like all right, Bob, start heading
back. I'm going to head back in a little while. I
stayed a little bit longer, I don't know how much
V. PALMIERI
longer. It could have been maybe an hour or so. I saw
Firefighter Al Sicignano from my company. I told Al
what was going on, how long I had been there, who I had
seen so far and that was probably just Jeff, Captain
Sakowich and Bob Emans . Bob had said that Jack Butler
was also okay. He was the chauffeur that day from 6
Engine. The rest of the company we had no reports of
where they were. We knew they were in the building, we
didn't know where.
So then I told Al, I saw Bobby, he said he
thinks it's a good idea we go back to 6 and try to
regroup and come back in a little while with a better
plan or something. Al was like all right, go ahead,
you go on your own. I will meet you back there in a
little bit. I left and went back to 6 Engine.
While I'm at 6 Engine, getting phone calls
from some of the wives, specifically Lieutenant
(inaudible) 's wife. Gave her whatever information we
could and that's when 7 World Trade collapsed. So that
might give you a time frame of how long I was there.
Stayed at 6 Engine for a while. I don't
remember who else came back and I grouped up with a
couple of guys, a handful of guys. We headed back over
after we got something to drink, a little something to
19
V. PALMIERI
eat. I headed back over, spent the remainder of the
night there until late into the night. Ran into a
brother-in-law of one of the firefighters who we knew
was missing that day, Billy Green. His brother-in-law
is a corrections officer, at the corner of West and
Liberty, with Jeff Straub. He was looking for him.
Had no idea where he was. I just told him that and I
told him I would be in touch with the families or him
as soon as we found somebody and just stayed there a
long time that night.
Basically didn't see anyone from the company
that responded that day at all that day. I don't
remember now. I ended up going back to 6 Engine
sometime late that night. Got back to 6 Engine. Most
of the guys that had reported in from home were already
back at 6 Engine. I was glad to see Butchie Barone and
a bunch of guys, because I knew that they might have
been there before me, even though they might not have
took a mark in the journal. I didn't know who was
where. I was glad to see most of the guys.
That's when I started to find out exactly who
was missing from the company and there were reports
that Billy Green was okay. He was in a hospital but it
wasn't confirmed yet. That's it. Just various
20
V. PALMIERI
information like that.
We just operated as a company for the next
almost week or two on our own going back and forth.
The rig was crushed, so we weren't really responding.
We didn't have a rig for a week or so, so the company
basically just woke up every morning, ten or 15 guys
would get together, walk over, one or two guys would
stay at the house and try to keep the house organized
with one officer, just to have some sort of idea who
was where in case anything else happened.
Every once in a while they would be
relocating company. I don't remember if that was like
day 3 maybe or 4. That's basically how we operated
until we went to an actual AB chart. When we went to
the AB chart, really didn't make much. The guys that
were on duty got to go definitely, except one of the
guys that was on duty had to stay at the fire house.
Guys that were off duty geared up and went over. It
was almost like as we were drawing straws of who had to
stay back and that was it. I don't know what else.
Q. Okay, very good. You mentioned that north
walk bridge was completely down?
A. Yes.
Q. You couldn't cross West Street because that
21
V. PALMIERI
bridge was down, but it became necessary to go up and
down West Street you had to find a way around?
A. Right. That's what we were looking for.
There was a total collapse in that area. There was no
way in. No way over or around. You couldn't even
probably bring portable ladders to get a truck in,
because there was just too much debris in the street.
There was a lot, lot of rigs parked on West Street
between Vesey and Murray, both sides of the street.
Just rigs all over the place.
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: Okay. I thank you
for the interview. The time is now 11:30 a.m.
This concludes the interview.
File No. 9110260
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DANIEL STERLING
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
D. STERLING
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: The date is December
6, 2001. The time is 1434 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Malkin, safety battalion, New York
City Fire Department.
I'm conducting an interview with Firefighter
6th Grade Daniel Sterling, Engine 24, regarding
the events that occurred on September 11. There
is no one else present in the room, and the
interview is following right now.
Q. Just talk in a normal voice and tell me what
happened.
Where did you respond from?
A. We responded from quarters. I was getting
off duty at nine o'clock that Tuesday morning. The
alarm came in at 8:47, so I had been relieved already.
We're a five-man engine, so because it came in as a
second alarm, and I just got on the job in February, I
rolled as the doorman, to get, you know, experience.
Second alarm fire, we don't get that.
So we were riding down -- I was the doorman
-- and going south. The control and the nozzle could
see that we actually had a good job. There were a lot
of people standing in the streets, looking down toward
the building, but based on my position, I couldn't see
D. STERLING
what they saw.
We pulled up to the twin towers on West
Street and into the lobby of the north tower. We got
there about nine o'clock before the second building got
hit. We didn't know the second building got hit at
nine o'clock or anything.
When we made it into the lobby, there was
debris falling from the building. Guys were trying to
vent those big windows in the lobby. I saw 33 engine
in the lobby. I recognized one guy, who I didn't --
who wound up being missing, but I remember seeing him
in the lobby. He said, "Hey, how you doing? We're
here to go to work" and whatever. We were in the lobby
waiting for the elevator. They set up the command
post, and we are trying to find out if we were going to
be able to take the elevators up, because they said
that there was a reported fire on the 80th Floor, so,
of course, we were going to try to get to the
elevators .
After about maybe four, five minutes, still
no elevator. They're saying the elevators weren't
working. Ladder 20, the officer from Ladder 20,
decided to start walking up the stairs. He like
rallied his guys. So we're walking. We're going to
D. STERLING
start walking. Everybody at that point started walking
up the stairs .
We -- my team started up the A staircase, and
we were following Ladder 20. I guess all the other
companies were following behind us . We ended up going
up single file. Civilians were coming down single
file. They were telling us what floors they were
coming from.
Lieutenant Hanson was the officer, so he was
finding out what floors they were escaping from, what
the conditions were like on their floors, and by the
time we got to the 11th Floor, people started to get
tired.
We got up to the 15th Floor, and we were --
started taking breaks. The 15th Floor might be open,
and then the consecutive ones would be closed up until
about the 21st Floor, so we came off the 15th, and we
heard Maydays on the radio from Ladder 10. Ladder 10
had two men down with chest pains. We heard that on
the radio.
Then we would keep going. When we stopped on
the 15th Floor, we took a survey of the floor, found
the vending machines . Guys had broken the vending
machines already to start taking out the water, so we
D. STERLING
were taking bottles of water, taking a break, and then
going back on the stairs. We kept doing that every
five or six floors, wherever there was an open door.
Realistically what happened is it took us
about an hour to get to the 37th Floor, and the guys at
that point -- well, at the 27th Floor, my lieutenant
decided to drop two roll-ups, because we were taking
the four roll-ups and the control bag. We were taking
a beating just going up the stairs, getting tired, so
we dropped two roll-ups on the 27th Floor, and we left
one of our members on the 27th Floor because he really
-- he didn't feel he could make it any further.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. So we continued up. We got to the 37th
Floor, and we were about to drop the other two
roll-ups, because Lieutenant Hanson said he got word
that we were just going to back up 33 engine, so we
were going to use their hose. We weren't going to take
any of our own hose.
At that point when we were on the 37th Floor,
that's when the building shook from the other tower
going down, so -- but we didn't know it was the other
tower that was going down. A battalion chief -- the
battalion chief from Battalion 11, came from a higher
D. STERLING
floor. He came down and saw us on the 37th Floor and
told us that he thought there was a partial collapse of
the 65th Floor of our building, and that we should drop
everything and leave the building.
Lieutenant Hanson didn't hesitate. He had us
drop everything, and we started to leave the building.
We were right by Staircase A. The vending machines
were around the corner to the right of Staircase A, so
a lot of the guys that were taking out water and stuff
ended up hanging out right in that hallway by the
vending machines, which also had a staircase to get out
of the building.
So when the chief told us to leave, we
immediately started down Exit A, and I think he ran
around the corner to tell the other guys that were
hanging out in the hallway with the vending machines to
also leave, but when the building shook, everybody
instinctively ran for the staircase, because it shook
for about 10 or 15 seconds, and we all, like, ran to
the closest stairwell, so I guess everybody that was in
that hallway ran for the staircase close to the vending
machine, and I know for a fact Ladder 5 was in that
hallway. There were at least 15 other guys, aside from
Ladder 5, because Ladder 5 was in quarters with us, so
D. STERLING
I know all the guys that were there, and I'm making
jokes with them. The lieutenant was sitting down.
ESU cops were handing out their oxygen
bottles for guys to take oxygen, so we were
like -- everybody was trying to relax for a minute,
drink their water and get up their energy to keep going
up the stairs, but when it shook, we went back down
Staircase A.
We had another probie with us, Rob Byrne.
Byrne, when the chief says, "Drop everything," he took
his face mask, and he took his mask off and everything
and left it there. And we started going down. We all
kept our mask.
I just -- I didn't see giving up my mask at
that point. It's not that heavy to me, but he wanted
to go quick. He said, "When he said drop everything,
I'm dropping everything."
So we started down. When we got to around
maybe the 10th Floor, there was a lot of smoke, and I
guess just dust coming up the stairwell, so we all
started masking up. At that point, Byrne had the -- he
used his hood.
Q. Go ahead. At 1507 hours, we resume the
interview.
D. STERLING
A. We were exiting the building, and Byrne was
using his hood to cover his mouth and his nose because
of the smoke and dust that was coming up the
stairwell. We started using our masks to breathe
through the smoke and dust around the 10th or 11th
Floor .
On the way out from the 37th Floor, we did
stop at the 27th Floor to meet Rich Billy.
He looked like he might really need the
break, so we left him there, and on the way back, he
hooked up with us .
So the entire engine was making its way out,
and when Lieutenant Hanson noticed that Byrne was
having to use his hood, he sent Byrne ahead. He told
him to go ahead and run as fast as he could to get out
of the building, because we were moving down in a slow,
orderly fashion, like, making sure we didn't really
make any errors on the way out. We were going slower
than Byrne could have made it on his own without the
mask, so he went ahead.
At that point, we got all the way down in the
A staircase to the 3rd Floor. Apparently the ESU cops
D. STERLING
had -- they put a piece of Sheetrock blocking off the
3rd Floor, blocking off the A staircase going below the
3rd Floor, so we exited the A staircase at the 3rd
Floor .
Q. Yeah.
A. We ran into two ESU or Port Authority cops,
and they were helping a guy in a swivel chair about --
he was at least 300 pounds. He had broken legs, and
they were trying to pull him through the hallway to get
him to the B staircase, which they said was good. They
said that they were responsible for blocking off the
staircase, because there was debris now in that
staircase. We couldn't have made it out to the ground
level that way.
So we helped them with the civilian. We took
him in the swivel chair down the B staircase. We had a
new swivel chair in the lobby of the building, because
we broke that one on the way down. We broke that
stair -- we broke that chair dragging him down the
stairs. We put him in a new swivel chair and dragged
him out the lobby, and we left the north tower on the
north side. The north -- we came out the north side of
the tower, and we went right across to 6 Trade Center,
to the Customs building.
10
D. STERLING
Q. Okay.
A. We collected ourselves under that little,
like, overhang.
Q. Okay.
A. There's an overhang there. We waited for a
second, cut the civilian out his pants to make it
easier for him to move. Then we all started moving
west. Excuse me, east. East up to the corner of that
building where we could kind of make it out to Vesey
Street .
I went ahead of my team. There were about
four people helping this guy walk through debris, and
everything that had fallen, I guess it got pushed out
to the Customs building from the first tower that
fell. There was a lot of debris.
So as everyone is helping the civilian, I
really couldn't help the civilian, because there were
already four guys helping him move. I went ahead. I
got ahead to the corner, made the corner, and went down
in between these two buildings. There were two Port
Authority cops standing at this corner of the building,
of the U.S. Customs building.
Q. Okay. We're talking about going between the
two buildings. That would be 6 World Trade Center,
11
D. STERLING
U.S. Customs building, 7 World Trade Center. He was
going north between those two buildings.
A. Five.
Q. Was that 5? Between 5 and 6 rather, going
north?
A. I got there to that corner. There were two
cops, like, directing traffic, and when I got to that
point with them, they said, "All right. You go ahead
and run diagonally straight over this way, " there were
some stairs to get out -- to get off of the courtyard
level .
Q. Okay.
A. Because this whole area is on, like, an
elevated courtyard. You're above the street. So I
stood there, and my team still hadn't come around the
corner of this building of the U.S. Customs building,
so I decided to wait for them to come around the corner
before I made my run.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. While I was waiting, it was maybe 30 seconds,
this tower fell. I never saw them come around the
corner .
Q. Right.
A. Because everything started falling. It went
12
D. STERLING
pitch black immediately. I was standing there with the
two cops. We were pressed against the side of the
building, so everything that fell kind of, like, fell
in front of us .
So at that point I masked up again, and my
viber alert started going off, so I know I didn't have
that much air, but when it went pitch black, we all
assumed that the building had, like, fallen on top of
us, because we couldn't see anything at all. We
assumed were trapped inside, like, a big void.
So I put my mask on and everything, and I
started crawling on the floor towards the other
building. I started crawling on the floor towards 5
World Trade Center.
Q. Okay.
A. I noticed that there was fire on the ground.
The courtyard now had dents in it, like craters from
where things had fallen through. So I regrouped, stood
up, and decided to start feeling along the wall, and
that's when I started bumping in -- I bumped into one
guy from my team, Rich Billy, the same guy who we left
on the 27th Floor.
I saw him. He didn't know where the
lieutenant was, and he was -- he was -- he thought I
13
D. STERLING
was a lieutenant. Then he started -- he had a radio.
The door position didn't have a radio. He started
giving Maydays and looking for Lieutenant Hanson. We
were also with four other -- four firemen, and they had
a civilian.
We took our area of refuge in Building 5. We
made it into a window into the lobby of that building
when everything was still pitch black, before the smoke
had completely risen. We went in the building, and you
could notice, like, big chunks sticking through the
ceiling of that building. So we were just waiting
around. We're going to have to, I guess, start digging
our way out or wait a little while and see if anything
else is going to fall. Then gradually the smoke
started to lift and the dust and everything.
Q. How long?
A. That took about -- it seemed like no longer
than ten minutes .
Q. Okay.
A. Maybe about seven to ten minutes it started
to lighten up, and you could see shafts of light
starting to come through from, I guess, this direction,
Washington Street. Like you could see light.
So at that point, when it lightened up good
14
D. STERLING
enough, you could look over to the edge of the
courtyard and see where the rail was. The rail had
gotten knocked off, but you could see the top of street
lights --
Q. Okay.
A. -- the curve of the street light coming up
over the courtyard level. So I told Rich Billy, "Let's
go over to the edge there and see if we can make it to
the street over there, " because at least you noticed --
you could see the top of the street light. The street
is not that far below.
He didn't really want to go across the
courtyard at that point. He told me he felt that --
that if other things started dropping, we might be --
we would be in jeopardy by going across. He has 20
years on the job, 18. He has about 18 years on the
job, but I was already a little nervous, and seeing the
things coming through the ceiling, I'm telling him,
"Well, if more things fall, they might -- everything
might come through the ceiling, " so our area of refuge
to me wasn't that good anyway. It was fine while we
were standing there, but if more things fell, they were
going to come through the ceiling anyway.
So I said, All right. "Well, you stay, but
15
D. STERLING
watch me. You watch me make it over. If I make it
over there, and I don't come back, know that you can
come off that way, because I'm going."
Q. Yeah.
A. Because I figured maybe I would be able to
jump across to -- the street lamp didn't look that far
from the edge. I figured maybe I could jump across and
slide down the street lamp and maybe to the street or
whatever, but he didn't do it.
I went, and there was another fireman that
came with me. I don't know his name or what company he
was from, but he was much bigger than me, taller guy
and heavier. So when I got over to the edge, I
realized I couldn't jump over to the pole. It was
about maybe a five, six-foot jump over to the pole and
then slide down. I just dropped the mask and hung off
the side and dropped down to the ground and ran
straight up.
I must have run a little bit this way. Then
I started heading north. There was also two cops, I
guess in front of 7 World Trade Center or around this
corner somewhere pointing towards the north, just go
north, because I never looked back at the building to
figure out that both towers had completely fallen.
16
D. STERLING
Q. Right.
A. As soon as I dropped down to the street
level, I noticed there was an engine that was
abandoned, and there was a cop car directly behind the
engine, and a whole row of cars that was on fire, so I
ran past all those cars and started heading north.
That was it.
I got about four, five blocks before I really
started limping. I sprained both my ankles just
dropping off the side there, but I didn't catch up with
Rich Billy until maybe seven o'clock that evening. He
told me he waited about five, ten minutes after I left,
and then the guys he was with just kind of walked
around the courtyard and found the stairs and took the
stairs down. I actually -- they had a picture of him
on CBS News, I guess, like, when he finally made it,
walked down the stairs, because he was still covered in
all the gray dust, and he just looked beat. I guess
that was right when he walked down the stairs. They
got a picture of him and, like, two other firemen he
was walking with, and I told him, "I saw you on the
news." He was, like, we found the stairs. I took the
stairs down.
Q. Uh-huh.
17
D. STERLING
A. I didn't really -- I couldn't wait for the
stairs. I couldn't wait -- I was too impatient. I was
already -- I had already thought we were dead. Like,
when everything went pitch black from everything being
bright, you got outside to the bright daylight, and the
cops are telling you to make a run this way. It was
bright. Then all of a sudden it was pitch black. Fire
was on the ground, craters, so that was it.
But when I made it out, I went up -- I ended
up on West Street, and the ambulance took me to St.
Vincent's. I got my ankles wrapped. Before I got
there, I was able to call my parents. I called my
grandmother. I spoke to my grandfather at about 10:30,
because there was a civilian who let me use the phone
when I was walking up. Then I got to St. Vincent's. I
called the firehouse, and I was back at the firehouse
by about one o'clock, and the chauffeur was here. The
chauffeur that drove us down there was at the
firehouse, Otto. Then we -- we kind of regrouped and
went back to West Street to look for the other guys.
We found Marcel Claes . He was our control
man. He started walking down with us from the 37th
Floor, and we walked -- we were all together, and we
come to find out -- he told us he stopped and went back
D. STERLING
to get the control bag after -- we dropped everything,
and we started down. He went back to get the control
bag, started back down the same A staircase. He said
he cut across the 7th Floor and made it out the
building before we did, but everybody in the engine
made it out.
Q. They did?
A. Yeah. Everybody that was in the engine that
day made it out.
Q. Were they safe? Did anybody perish from the
engine? They were all okay?
A. Yeah. Everybody from the engine made it out
just fine. I got hurt the worst, a sprain in my ankles
after the fact, but everybody in the truck that was
with us on the 37th Floor, none of them made it out at
all.
Q. No kidding.
A. None of the truck made it out. We had two
other guys that weren't working that day from the truck
that went in. They never made it out.
Q. Were you with them on the 37th? No? Yes?
Did they get the message to leave the 37th the same
time you did?
A. Yeah. Apparently the chief went around the
19
D. STERLING
corner and told everybody --
Q. Yeah.
A. -- to start leaving the building, too, but I
think they must have got caught up for some reason
going down the staircase that they were going down.
Q. Yeah.
A. I think they were going down either the B or
C. We were in the A. If you walked straight down the
hallway, they were calling that the B staircase, and
the hallway came into like a T. There was the vending
machines in this hallway, and there was another
staircase in that hallway, so they went down that one.
We went down the same way we were coming up,
the A, because when we went and got our drinks, we came
right back, because we were going to start walking up
again. We were just taking the A staircase all the way
up.
Q. Yeah.
A. But —
Q. When you guys were walking down the stairs,
when you had been ordered to walk down the stairs, now,
you had been climbing for a long time, maybe an hour?
A. Yes, just about.
Q. Now, you turn around, and you start coming
20
D. STERLING
down. Were there a lot of civilians still coming down
the stairs or you were booking in that staircase?
A. There was nobody in the staircase on the way
down .
Q. Nobody?
A. Nobody at all. I guess the only reason that
the cops had that one civilian was because he was hurt,
because he -- he couldn't walk on his own.
Q. Right.
A. They had him in the swivel chair.
Q. Right.
A. A lot of people were making it out of the
Tower 1 when we were going up. Even on the way up, we
ran into one businessman who was coming down from the
90th Floor, so he made it all the way down from the
90th Floor. He said he saw fireballs come at him, and
thought he was going to die, but then he got to a good
staircase and made it down. He was helping a lady with
an asthma attack, and at that point we put him in an
office on about the 21st Floor. We put him in an
office off to the side of the staircase.
So I'm hoping he got out, because we were
figuring we can put people in a safe area of refuge
below the fire.
21
D. STERLING
Q. Right.
A. So we told him to just hang out over there,
but he was just fine. Somebody told me they saw some
blood on his shirt, but he was coherent and
everything. He told us he was coming from 90, and
there was a lot of fire on 90, so we're thinking, man,
we got 10 floors of fire, and we got roll-ups, but we
still didn't know the jetliner or anything.
We're thinking small plane, because when it
came across the teleprinter, it was a small plane hit
the building.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. And when we arrived, you could just see smoke
and fire coming out, but it didn't look like when you
see the news footage of the second building getting
hit. It wasn't a big explosion like that.
Q. Yeah.
A. It was just fire and smoke. That was it.
That's it. I mean, that's pretty much the most scary
experience I've had.
I get a little nervous every now and then at
regular fires, but that's, I guess, because I'm brand
new, but that -- the thought of being stuck is not
good.
22
D. STERLING
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: That's an
interesting story. All right.
I want to thank you for the interview. The
time is now 1521 hours.
This concludes the interview.
</XMPX/BODYX/HTML>
File No. 9110261
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER EUGENE KELTY, JR.
Interview Date: December 6, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
Kelty, Jr.
BATALLION CHIEF MALKIN: Today is
December 6, 2001. The time is now 10:44.
This is Battalion Chief John Malkin of the
Safety Battalion of the New York City Fire
Department. I am conducting an interview
with Captain Eugene Kelty, Engine Company 10.
We are at the quarters of Engine Company 4,
regarding the events of September 11, 2001,
at the World Trade Center.
There is nobody else present in the
room at this time, except the Captain and
myself, and now the interview begins.
A. Okay. My name is Captain Gene Kelty. I'm
the Company Commander for Engine Company 10, which
is located at 124 Liberty Street, which is the
firehouse right opposite the World Trade Center. I
was off that day. My partner, Lieutenant Gregg
Atlas, who was working and is still missing in
action, was working that day.
We were on the golf course at a company outing
that we have in our neighborhood when we got a
report on the pager that the fire -- the towers had
been hit. Knowing that that was my company, I
3
Kelty, Jr.
responded in with my brother, who is a supervising
Fire Marshal, James Kelty from Manhattan base, we
got in Manhattan somewhere around, I would say,
around 9:35, a quarter to ten. We went up to my
quarters, because we were changing into our work
clothes so we could go and start our assistance on
what was going on within the building or outside the
building .
When we got into the building, there was a lot
of civilians in my kitchen, which is on the backside
of Cedar Street, between Greenwich and Church, and
they had been quartered with us when the plane hit
the buildings, and all the debris and stuff was
coming down. Captain Mallery was in the building at
the time, and Lieutenant O'Malley, my Lieutenant
from Engine 10, was in the building. Captain
Mallery is the Captain from Ladder 10. Captain
Mallery was in my office with my brother and we were
evaluating what was going on and he was giving us a
briefing regarding the first plane that hit the
tower, and then the second plane.
At that time, which was probably somewhere
around a quarter to ten, the second tower, World
Trade 2, came down. Unbeknownst to us, we were
4
Kelty, Jr.
upstairs, we heard the building shake, a lot of
debris came down, and the building was hit with a
dust cloud.
The apparatus doors were open, because I went
out on the second floor by my office, and it was
pitch black from the air conditioner that was
blowing in the bunkroom of the second floor. I
looked out the window. It was pitch black. All the
dust that was coming down Greenwich Street headed
southbound. We went down the stairs to see how
everybody was doing downstairs. There was people
all over the place. People with broken ankles,
broken legs, femurs.
We went into the kitchen and we started
evacuating the house, because we didn't know exactly
what happened, other than the building came down and
collapsed. It was later determined that it was
building World Trade 2, which is the south building
that came down. We started evacuating everybody. I
had not gotten out to the street yet. We just made
sure that we could get people out the back door,
that's the Greenwich Street side, and we were having
everybody go down up to Trinity Place and go south.
We were heading them towards the Statue of Liberty
Kelty, Jr.
way, Battery Park. Captain Mallery, myself,
Lieutenant O'Malley were in the building doing the
evacuation .
At the time, I think, the Captain or the
Lieutenant went across the street. There was a
Lieutenant that was injured at 130 Liberty Street,
which is the Deutsch Bank, and they were assisting a
first-aid case over there. In the meantime, I
continued the evacuation.
Most of the equipment in the building was gone.
All that was left was my turnout coat and I grabbed
the truck helmet. I had an understanding that the
building was taken over by civilians and everybody
else and all our equipment was taken out of the
building and had been ravaged by civilians and
anybody else that needed equipment that day.
While we were evacuating people, there was an
ambulance in the engine bay, that was stuck in the
engine bay because of the debris that came down from
World Trade 2 and there was no way of going out the
front door, other than climbing over piles of debris
that was there. After the tower came down, we made
the determination that we weren't sure if any other
building would come down, so we evacuated the whole
6
Kelty, Jr.
building. I went through and did a search and there
was two EMS people that were still left in the
building. Again, Captain Mallery and Lieutenant
O'Malley were across the street at 130 Liberty
Street. I went into the kitchen to make sure there
was nobody there when I heard the rumble of Tower 1
coming down. I don't know the time that it
happened. I just heard the same rumble I heard when
Tower 2 came down, the same thing, and I took cover
in our kitchen.
The only people left in the building were the
two EMS people and after the tower collapsed and we
got more debris thrown in our kitchen, I opened the
door to go out to the apparatus to find out if they
were okay and they were right behind the door. We
pulled them in the kitchen and the two EMS people
were hurt, but they were conscious and stuff, and we
evacuated them out. I evacuated them out of the
back of the building and they went down the street
towards the south.
After that I checked with Lieutenant O'Malley
and Captain Mallery to make sure that they were okay
and that they were still alive, because I didn't
know what happened when the second tower came down,
7
Kelty, Jr.
which is World Trade Center 1. They were across the
street. I was calling to them. I managed to get a
hold of them. We went over there and there was a --
at the time, too, when we were evacuating the
building Ladder 124 was there. They assisted with
moving people up the block and down to the south.
They helped work with EMS. When we went over later
on, after the second tower, I went over again to see
if our Captain was okay. They had stabilized the
Lieutenant. I think he broke his leg and his
shoulder, and dislocated his shoulder. Lieutenant
O'Malley had packaged him up -- Captain Mallery, and
we started on our way and we started going down
Greenwich Street south to Albany; to Rector Street,
we made a right on Rector Street to head over to the
west side, away from any more possible collapses
until we figured West Street would be open.
We took them over to -- I think there was two
other firefighters with us. I don't know what
company they were. We stopped on the way on Carlyle
Street, between Greenwich and Washington, to take a
break and make sure that the Lieutenant was okay.
Captain Mallery I think remained and I think he was
doing a search at 130 Liberty. We managed to get
8
Kelty, Jr.
down to West Street and Carlyle and we ran into an
EMS person and we passed off the Lieutenant to him,
and they backed him out on some type of vehicle. I
think it was a flatbed truck. And then Lieutenant
O'Malley and I started to search some of the
buildings. We went into the Marriott Hotel, which
was, I think, 85 or 9Q -- 85 West Street.
There was a security person in there and we
talked to him. He said that the whole place was
evacuated. We told him we wanted him out of the
place, and made sure that everybody was accounted
for. After that Lieutenant O'Malley and I went down
to West Street. We started walking around on West
Street seeing if we could see any surface victims to
rescue and stuff. The whole area was covered with
gray ash from the debris that came down, and then we
ended up splitting up. I was trying to head over to
the north side, which was Vesey and West, to see
what was happening over there. There was no access
on West Street due to the World Trade Tower 1 coming
down, part of 3 was down on West Street and there
was no way up Liberty Street due to World Trade 2
that collapsed.
I went through the back way, which was through
9
Kelty, Jr.
the World Finance Centers, cut through the building.
I ended up getting onto West Street. I'm not sure
if I went through the towers or I went around the
back to the north cove and I came out on North End
Avenue. At that time, there was people on the
Vesey/West Street side and I paired up -- down on
the corner of West and Vesey, there was a lot of
rigs that were buried under the debris. I remember
the super satellite from Engine 9 was there, in
front of the 6 World Trade Center. There were
people climbing all over the place trying to get
into there and there were some fires. They looked
for surface victims and stuff.
I ran into some of the people from the first
battalion. There was Chief McKavanagh, and we
started trying to get water. We wanted water lines
down there to start water. I understand the boats
were in, so we managed to get rigs that were further
back towards Murray and Warren Street that were not
covered in debris. I remember Ladder 115 ' s rig was
in the middle of the street on West Street by Vesey,
heading southbound, and that was covered in debris.
I managed to get an Engine out and we backed it down
the street, down through Murray, up around the back
10
Kelty, Jr.
on to North End Avenue and we brought it in on Vesey
Street and parked it midway. We then had lines
running from the boats, which was at the waterfront
at the time. We ran lines down to supply the
pumper, and then the pumper ran more lines down to
supply the satellite, which was located down at the
intersection of Liberty --of Vesey and West. And
we were trying to use that as a supply line to get
any hand lines or even to get the super pumper up or
the Vesey water satellite unit in service.
We then had another break in the block on West
Street heading southbound that we were hooking into
to try to boost the pressure up to get water into
the satellite units so we could extinguish fires
that were going on right now in 6 World Trade, which
is the Federal building, the Customs building. We
couldn't the get pressure up on it. It would only
reach so much pressure and because it was 3-inch,
3-and-a-half -inch lines, we couldn't get enough
water down there to provide the pressure to use the
satellite gun. And that's where we spent most of
the day, was just trying to attack the fires, put
whatever we put out in the area.
There was units searching in 6 World Trade.
11
Kelty, Jr.
One World Trade we couldn't get near, because the
bridge had collapsed on top of it. The north end
bridge had collapsed on the street, blocking the
whole street, and we were just -- there were units
all over the place. People were all over the place.
I didn't know who they were. Because at the time we
had a problem with as far as determining who was
who, because equipment was being borrowed from all
firehouses .
And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time.
We could see it. There was concern. I had gone up
to take a look at it, because I knew that the
telephone company building, which is 140 West
Street, was next to 7 World Trade Center, and there
was a concern that if 7 World Trade came down, what
would happen to this building? We went in there, we
checked it out. There were some people in there.
We made them evacuate and I went in the back to see
what was happening.
The fire at 7 World Trade was working its way
from the front of the building northbound to the
back of the building. There was no way there could
be water put on it, because there was no water in
the area. I went back and I reminded whoever the
12
Kelty, Jr.
chief was, I don't know if it was Chief McKavanagh
or Chief Blaich, that with 7 World Trade Center in
danger of collapsing, you had to be careful, because
Con Edison had big transformers in the back that
supplied the lower half of Manhattan. So we had to
be concerned about electricity, that this may be
energized or not be energized. We also reminded him
about the telephone company, about the equipment
that was in there.
After a while, what happened, my eyes started
bothering me. I ended up getting taken over to
St. Francis in Jersey by the water, had my eyes
washed out and when I was coming back somewhere
around I think it was 5:00 o'clock, 6:00 o'clock, 7
World Trade Center came down. We were in the water
when it came down. It might have been earlier. It
might have been 4. I don't know exactly when, but
we were on the river coming back from New Jersey
when the towers came down.
They were utilizing the north cove as a
reference point for evacuation of all people over
for hospitals and stuff. The Port Authority -- or
police launches were there. They were bringing
people across. They had a triage station set up
13
Kelty, Jr.
over there to flush the eyes or to handle whatever
emergency was quick, and then they moved them over
and then transported them out over to New Jersey.
After pretty much the towers came down and there was
some sense of no more collapse happening, Engine
10's quarters started to get used as a triage
station and a general focal point.
Throughout the whole time Engine 10 's quarters
emergency generator was working we had some type of
lighting system and some type of electricity.
That's why they used it as a focal point. The EMS
people were in there, they were triaging a lot of
people. They were eye washing any emergencies, any
civilians, any firemen. There was continued
searches throughout the area. Again, the people I
don't know, because helmets were being used by
everybody, taken out of everybody's quarters.
Partial equipment was worn. There were no face
masks down there at the time, we had no breather
masks. We were using whatever was handy, and I
probably didn't get out of there until almost 1:30
in the morning, and which I stayed at the Fire
Marshal's base with my brother. I finally touched
bases with him. I stayed there and then we were
14
Kelty, Jr.
back again at 9:00 o'clock in the morning. That's
it.
Q. You mentioned Lieutenant O'Malley. You
may have mentioned it before. What unit is he in?
A. He's in Engine 10.
Q. Okay. And Captain --
A. Mallery. M-A-L-L-E-R-Y. He's the Captain
at Ladder 10.
BATALLION CHIEF MALKIN: Okay. Good
interview. I thank you for the interview.
The time is now 10:58 hours and this is the
conclusion of the interview.
File No. 9110262
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM HOREL
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
W. HOREL
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Today's date is
December 7, 2001. The time is 9:55 hours in the
morning. This is Battalion Chief Ronald H. Kemly
of the New York City Fire Department.
I am conducting an interview with the
following individual: William Horel of Engine 64,
Firefighter 6th Grade, of the New York City Fire
Department .
The interview is being conducted at the
quarters of Engine 64 regarding the events of
September 11, 2001.
Q. Firefighter Horel, would you tell me what
happened in the events of September 11?
A. Sure. We were assigned first to respond to
35 engine for the staging area and met there with
several other engine companies, and we were told to
respond to the site, so we drove down to the site,
parked near Chambers and West.
Myself, Mike Ferrara, Vinnie Massa, Dave
Moriarity and Lieutenant Steve O'Brien started to walk
down West Street. We got to the corner of Vesey and
West when the north tower started to collapse.
At that point, I turned north on West and
dove behind an ambulance. When the dust cleared, we
W. HOREL
headed back towards looking for, you know, whatever we
could do.
We weren't given any specific assignment
until much later in the day when we did the primary
search of the Verizon building from the 11th floor to
the 20th Floor.
Don't really recall seeing any members of any
other units going into the building, because we didn't
get up right to where we could see the lobby or
anything. We weren't that close before the collapse.
Q. Is that it? Do you have any other
recollection?
A. Nothing.
Q. Okay. I'll ask you a few questions, and
maybe it will help you out .
When you said you were told to respond, did
anybody else respond with you? Any other companies?
A. From 35, yeah, there was probably five or six
other engine companies. I remember 83, I remember 50.
There was either 96 or 94, or maybe both of them. I'm
not sure. I know 50 and 83 were there, and 35.
Q. Okay. Do you recall if they responded, they
got there at the same time as you or --
A. We were actually the lead engine in the
W. HOREL
convoy, so we pulled in first, but they were all right
behind us.
Q. Okay.
A. All right behind us.
Q. Do you recall if you reported in to anybody?
A. We were working our way towards what we
thought was the command post near Vesey and West, but
as soon as the collapse came, we never got to report in
to anybody at that point.
Later on, there were smaller command posts
set up all over that our officer checked in with,
but. . .
Q. Okay. After you got there, like you said,
the collapse occurred very shortly afterwards.
Did you happen to see -- maybe not
companies. Did you happen to see any apparatus?
A. One apparatus I noticed was 12 truck, because
I had a couple of friends working at 12 truck, so I
knew they would be down there. I saw the rig, but no
members .
Q. Okay. Where was that located?
A. Right around the corner of Vesey and West,
right where we were, a little bit farther in.
Q. Okay. Was it intact or was it --
W. HOREL
A. It was intact. It wasn't damaged.
Q. And afterwards?
A. Yeah, after the collapse I noticed it.
Q. Okay.
A. So. . .
Q. Any other things you can recall? As far as
did you see any members?
A. We stretched line, I remember, to the water.
I guess it was, like, up to one of the boats, one of
the marine units.
Q. Right. That was after the collapse?
A. That was after the collapse.
Q. As you said, you hadn't seen any members or
anything before that?
A. No, not that I can recall.
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Okay. This concludes
the interview. Thank you.
File No. 9110265
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER STEVEN ALTINI
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
S. ALTINI 2
CHIEF KEMLY: Today is Friday, December
7th, 2001. The time is 1615 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of the Fire
Department, City of New York. I am
conducting an interview with the following
individual: Steven Altini, firefighter
first, assigned to Engine Company 24 of the
Fire Department, City of New York. The
interview is being conducted at the quarters
of Engine 24 in the engine office, regarding
the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Fireman Altini, would you please tell
me what happened on September 11th.
A. Okay. Me and two other off-duty
firefighters responded from home prior to the
recall. We went over the Verrazano Narrows
Bridge. Looking towards Manhattan, we could see
the two towers, pretty heavy smoke rushing from
the towers.
We responded through Brooklyn via the
Gowanus Expressway. We were waved through the
easy pass lane from PD as we showed our ID, who
we were. We proceeded to go through the Battery
Tunnel. We noticed no fire apparatus or
S. ALTINI 3
emergency vehicles as we went through, just some
civilian vehicles.
As we exited the Battery Tunnel to
lower Manhattan, we proceeded to make a right
turn onto West Street where we were confronted
with a lot of debris in the street, airplane
debris, human remains and such.
We pulled our pickup truck just north
of the Marriott at Carlisle Street on the east
side of West Street, facing north. As we exited
the vehicle, two other firefighters donned their
protective gear and headed north towards tower
two or one.
Me being in civilian clothes and no
protective gear, I proceeded west across West
Street to Commissioner Gregory and his aide and
asked them where the off-duty firemen were going,
and what I can do. I was instructed to either
remain at the scene or proceed over to City Hall
where the firefighters were now mustering up
after the recall.
As I was there, I remember seeing
Ladder 113, but there was no members there. This
was between 9:30 and 10. I don't know the exact
S. ALTINI 4
time the second plane hit the tower, but that's
exactly when we left Staten Island. It took us
maybe about 20 minutes to get in.
I noticed an engine company -- I
believe it was Engine 211 -- pull up. As they
were getting out of the rig, I went over to the
chauffeur and asked them if they had protective
gear that I could borrow. Being the chauffeur
was also suiting up, they had no extra gear.
With that I headed east across West
Street and went through the Marriott at Carlisle
Street, exiting the rear onto Washington Street,
headed north one block, over east another block
to Greenwich Street, where I met up with another
fireman who was in full gear from Engine 249.
We proceeded north towards Engine 10,
and we tried to enter their quarters through the
rear basement entrance, which was locked. As we
continued north on Greenwich Street towards the
corner of Liberty and Greenwich is when tower two
started to come down.
The only other apparatus I saw, that I
remembered seeing on Liberty Street in front of
tower two, I believe it was Ladder 15. The
S. ALTINI 5
number is not clear, but I thought it was Ladder
15. I may be mistaken. I confronted no
personnel other than the one member from 249 at
that point.
We found cover at the corner of Cedar
and Greenwich Street as tower two was coming
down, in a deli next to O'Hara's Restaurant.
After it sounded like the tower was finished
collapsing, we exited the deli and headed south
one block, where we were separated, me and the
fireman.
I met up with a fire cadet, Eddie
Gonzalez, who sustained a broken left arm, I
believe, and we got him to an ambulance maybe
about 15 minutes, 20 minutes later. By that time
tower one had already come down.
When he was taken away in the
ambulance, I went around by Battery Park and back
up West Street where there was a lot of firemen
that weren't there earlier. I didn't see
Commissioner Gregory or his aide. I didn't see
any other members that I saw prior to the
collapses. Just a lot of firemen from out of the
borough I guess responded from the recall.
S. ALTINI 6
I gave Chief Mosier from the 8th
Division some information about the two members
that I came up to Manhattan with, because at this
point I knew they were missing and I thought they
were caught in the collapse of either one or two,
tower one or tower two. I wasn't sure, because
they didn't say where they were going.
Throughout the day I met many different
personnel, and we continued to search and help
stretch some hose line from the tugboats to
supply tower ladders on West Street, and that was
pretty much it.
Q. I'm just going to ask you a couple
questions. That was pretty good.
When you say you went there with two
other firemen, who were the others?
A. It was Craig Monahan from Ladder
Company 5 and Joseph Rea from Engine Company 255.
Q. They had their gear with them?
A. Yes.
Q. When you were on West Street, you said
you were on West Street and you met Commissioner
Gregory.
A. Right.
S. ALTINI
Q. Where on West Street was he? Do you
know what street?
A. Yeah, we were pretty much right between
Liberty and Cedar, just south of the south
walkway bridge, at the median in the divider.
There was a separation in the divider, and he had
his car and they were there, facing north.
Q. You mentioned 211, again on West
Street. Do you know where on West Street? Is
that the same location?
A. Same location. They pulled up, and the
officer had come out and I believe he spoke to
Commissioner Gregory. At that point I went over
and spoke to the chauffeur as he was donning his
gear .
Q. And the guy from 249, you don't recall
his name?
A. No, I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay.
A. I was told his name a couple of times.
Q. Okay. Fine.
A. I don't remember.
Q. It would help, but that's fine.
And Ladder 15, you said they were on
S. ALTINI 8
West Street also on Liberty Street. Is that the
overpass, the south overpass?
A. No, it looked like they were facing --
they were on the north side of Liberty Street
facing east on a diagonal. I hate to speculate,
but they may have come around by Battery Park and
then up West Street and parked their rig in front
of tower two. They weren't near tower one.
Q. No, but the overpass on Liberty Street,
the south walkway.
A. Right.
Q. Were they near that?
A. They were just north of that and east.
Q. Okay. If you don't have anything else,
that concludes the interview. Thank you very
much.
A. Thank you.
File No. 9110266
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER ROBERT BYRNE
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
R. BYRNE 2
CHIEF KEMLY: Today's date is December
7th, 2001. The time is 1645 hours. This is
Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of the New York
City Fire Department. I'm conducting an
interview with the following individual:
Firefighter 6th grade Robert Byrne, assigned
to Engine Company 24 of the Fire Department
of the City of New York.
The interview is taking place at the
quarters of Engine 24, in the company
office, regarding the events of September
11th, 2001.
Q. Fireman Byrne, would you please tell me
what happened on September 11th.
A. September 11th I arrived for work early
to do my probationary firefighter duties so I was
square with everything. When we got the call to
go, I was able to -- I had to beg the nozzle man
to let me take up on him, which I did. The call
came in around 8:46, so we responded immediately.
So I had the knob.
En route to the World Trade Center, it
was myself as the nozzle man, Marcel Claes was
the backup, Dan Sterling was the doorman, and
R. BYRNE 3
Rich Billy had control, Lieutenant Hanson was my
officer and John Ottrando was our chauffeur.
While going to the Trade Center, I'm
really doing my size-up and saying, oh, my God,
there's like ten floors missing. Everything is
blowing out fire. I remember looking how high it
is and saying, oh, my God, how are we going to
get up there with all of our equipment.
We parked on, I'm pretty sure it was
the West Side Highway by Vesey. I'm almost sure
it was over in that area. I remember John parked
the rig. We headed to the north tower at that
time.
When we were going there, I remember
seeing debris and whatnot falling. When we got
to the staging area inside the lobby, I remember
seeing other companies. I remember vividly
seeing it looked like the core elevators of the
building were blown apart as if a giant had
punched through tinfoil.
I remember seeing some bodies. I
remember looking out into the courtyard and
seeing some mutilated bodies. Debris was
everywhere. I remember we were just waiting for
R. BYRNE 4
our assignment.
From there we headed up, I believe it
was behind Ladder 20, and we headed up to the
staircase A. We got as far as, I'd say, the 13th
floor initially. We had to take our first blow
because we were carrying a lot of equipment.
There were civilians jamming the
staircase. There was water flowing down the
staircase; I remember that. People saying,
"Thank you, guys." I remember another unit
behind us. I don't remember what company they
were with. One of the senior guys was saying
basically, "You're almost there, folks. You're
almost there." Then I started joking around with
the people. I said, "Yeah, all this for 32
grand." People thought it was funny. That was
my way of trying to make them feel better, tell
them a joke.
On the 13th floor we took a break. I
remember hearing radio calls then, by other
units, some maydays, members down with chest
pains. I don't know what floors they were on.
I kept going up. I remember seeing
people coming down in the stairs. We had to make
R. BYRNE 5
way for a couple of people that had their skin
hanging off their bodies, basically. They were
pretty burnt up.
I don't remember what floor it was, but
we were with a woman who had an asthma attack and
a man was helping her down. We were trying to
help her. We didn't have too much CFR stuff with
us, but some EMT I guess it was -- popped out of
nowhere. He had an oxygen tank with no proper
rebreather mask, but he was able to give her a
little air.
To make a long story short, she was
able to get out because she decided not to stay
and wait for EMS to help her out. She just got
out. She got out of the building.
It was around the 29th floor, I think
it was, that we decided to take some of our gear
off in order to make it up to the 80th floor.
Then we moved up to I think it was the 29th
floor. I don't remember what other units were up
there. Like I was saying, we were going to take
some gear off, leave a few of the hose lengths.
We carried a lot of gear up, and it was almost
impossible to make it up that high anyway.
R. BYRNE 6
That's where we left Rich Billy to be
communications relay, basically, because
communications were pretty poor in the staircase.
Personally I didn't hear a lot of radio
transmissions.
I remember going to I believe it was
the 35th floor we got to, and that's where we ran
into 5 Truck, our guys. They saw us. We came
into the hallway, and we were pooped. They came
over and offered us water. We took a blow there
for a little bit.
I remember somebody had gotten into a
water dispenser, and we took Poland Spring
bottles. I think it was Andy Brunn that got into
it. We were giving them out to civilians on
their way down.
I remember later on we went up to -- I
don't know if it was still on the 35th floor and
that's when we all dove into the staircase
because basically the whole tower shook and we
heard the noise of something going on. We didn't
know what it was.
What it was was the south tower
collapsing. We didn't know. Finally we got some
R. BYRNE 7
sort of transmission on the radio saying there
was a collapse on the 60th floor. Meanwhile the
south tower happened to come down.
We were still on a rest period. We
started going back. We were supposed to meet up
with another unit; I don't remember who it was.
We made it as far as, I believe it was the 37th
floor, and I believe it was a chief from the 11th
Battalion that popped up on the staircase. His
exact words were "Drop everything and get out."
We looked to Lieutenant Hanson, and he said,
"Drop everything and get out." That's when we
basically evacuated.
I remember going up the stairs took us
over the hour. Getting down the stairs took
maybe ten minutes, not even. By that time the
staircase was empty. The same staircase we took
up was empty on the way down.
We got as far as I believe the 10th
floor, 10th or 15th -- I'm not a hundred percent
sure -- and we knew something was bad at that
time anyway.
There was a radio transmission for --
they needed help. Lieutenant Hanson told me to
R. BYRNE 8
get out because my -- when the chief told me to
drop everything, because I'm a proby, I followed
orders to the T, I guess, and I dropped
everything, except for my bunker gear, of course.
But I dropped my Scott tank and everything. When
I got down to that floor, he said, "All right,
Byrne, you don't have your face piece. Just get
out of the building."
Basically, I got as far as the third
floor, where I ran into -- it looked like there
was a collapse down there. It was pretty bad.
It was all smoky and dusty. I thought it was
smoke, and I got a little nervous. I was at the
point where I was going to go up and get another
Scott tank, but I realized it wasn't smoke.
That's when I saw it was a collapse.
It looked like a collapse; either that or the
collapse and just closed up the staircase, I
think it was the second floor, third or second
floor, whatever it was. That's where I ran into
a Port Authority cop, and he directed me out.
It was a good thing I had my flashlight
on still, because it was pitch-black. I followed
a pitch-black hallway, and that's where I ran
R. BYRNE 9
into a group of civilians. When we got to the
point, I think it was the lobby, and that's where
we had -- we had a little overhead protection
there, and then we had to run across to the next
overhead protection it was about a 75 foot run.
There were jumpers and debris that was falling.
We had to pretty much take our chance when we
made the run.
Before that I remember running into
another guy in my probationary class, Jimmy
Brown. He was with 10-10. He was saying he
doesn't know where everybody is. To make a long
story short with Jimmy Brown, he ended up living
but he got buried up to his shoulders. They had
to dig him out before he suffocated.
I remember making the mad dash, praying
I wasn't going to get hit. I took a peek up. I
saw it looked clear to me, and I ran. I was
under another bit of overhead protection, but it
wasn't really that good a protection because the
aluminum was just coming down from that building.
It was just going through that thick plate glass
like a hot knife through butter. There were
bodies littering the courtyard. Everything was
R. BYRNE 10
on fire.
So I was by myself with 20 civilians, I
guess. I was the only fireman. The whole line
stopped because we had to stay in a single column
to keep the overhead protection. I didn't
understand why the column stopped. I was
worried. I was like, why is this thing stopping?
So I went around to the front, and
that's when I found this big lady and she
couldn't walk. Basically I was like, "Lady,
you've got to get up. You're going to kill
everybody." She said, "No, just leave me here."
So we couldn't do that of course. I tried to
help carry her, but I was just so exhausted. She
wouldn't give any effort whatsoever to get up. I
told her I have to go get a straight board.
Right around the corner of the
building, maybe 20 feet, 30 feet, I found a
couple of ESL) cops. With them two and myself, we
were able to get her as far as Church and Vesey
on the courtyard still. We're not in the street
level; we're still right next to the building.
I think there was another cop that came
over with a straight board. We strapped her in,
R. BYRNE 11
we took her down the stairs, and that's when the
building came down. We were about 150 feet away
when the building came down.
I remember when the building came down
I couldn't believe it, because I didn't even know
the other one came down yet, because we were
never told. We were told it was a collapse above
the 60th floor.
What's that, Chief? I'm sorry.
All of a sudden the lady was able to
get up and walk fine. That was good. At least
she lived. Because I didn't have a mask, I
inhaled quite a bit of that stuff. It went in my
eyes, everything.
I remember walking into, I think it was
towards Vesey, and I saw somebody in the middle
of the street and said, "Who are you? "I don't
know if I said, "Who are you?" I just remember
looking. I kept on walking towards the only
person I saw. It turned out to be Lieutenant
Hanson. He barely got out too.
Together him and I were able to walk a
block or half a block through all that debris.
The debris was burning. We got help from a group
R. BYRNE 12
of maintenance guys in a building. They were
able to wash our faces for us with a five gallon
jug. From there we got over to 7 and 1 somehow.
That's about it.
Q. Okay. Thank you. I have some
questions just to clarify stuff.
A. Sure.
Q. That was a good job there.
The first question, you said there were
other companies that you saw on the way, but you
don't remember their numbers? When you got to
Vesey and West, you started walking. These other
companies, you didn't take any notice?
A. When I was going in or out?
Q. Going in, walking towards the north
tower. You reported to the lobby command post,
probably, but do you know who the chief was at
the lobby command post?
A. Yeah, I remember seeing Chief Hayden.
Q. All right, Chief Hayden.
A. Because I remember there was a
firefighter from this house. I think it was 5
Truck. I remember seeing him around here before
that, and he was setting up the table, the
R. BYRNE 13
command table they use. I remember him knocking
it down. That's what drew my attention to see
Chief Hayden.
Q. All right. So that was the aide
probably of the division.
A. Right.
Q. So that was Division 1 was there
already.
But you didn't see any other companies
like in the lobby, the numbers, any numbers?
A. I remember seeing 5 Truck too.
Q. You don't know where he directed him
to?
A. No.
Q. You went up the stairs with Ladder 20?
A. Yes. They were leading us.
Q. No other companies came down or up
while you were working that staircase?
A. We were passing companies.
Q. But you didn't take notice of their
numbers?
A. I didn't take notice. It was my first
job, basically.
Q. Okay.
R. BYRNE 14
You said you didn't hear much on the
radio. Did you have a radio?
A. I did not, but I was close enough to
listen.
Q. That's fine.
The 11th Battalion, the chief you saw,
you said you believe it was the 11th?
A. Right.
Q. Did you see anybody with him? Was his
aide with him?
A. No, he was by himself.
Q. He was by himself. All right.
And you met 5 Truck on, what did you
say, the 35th?
A. The 35th floor, I believe it was.
Q. When you were coming down, did you see
any other Fire Department units or any apparatus
when you came out?
A. When I came out there was an engine. I
forgot the number.
Q. It was probably crushed; right?
A. No.
Q. It was in good shape?
A. It was in good shape after the building
R. BYRNE 15
collapsed .
Q. You came out of the lobby on the Church
Street side. Is that what you said? I believe
you said that.
A. Yeah, either that or I came out another
way. I had to go around the building.
Q. That's when you saw the engine, when
you first came out?
A. After the building came down I saw the
engine, because I went to look for a Scott tank.
Q. When you saw this fellow Jim Brown, was
he in the lobby? Outside?
A. I'm pretty sure he was in the lobby. I
thought he was just right outside the lobby.
Just before the mad dash.
There was something else I missed, I
wanted to tell.
Q. Okay. If you can remember something
else, go ahead. There's no rush.
A. I just forgot it.
Q. There's no rush.
A. Sorry. Thinking about this bugs you
out .
Q. No, we're just trying to find out if
R. BYRNE 16
you saw the units --
A. Oh, okay, I remember now. I remember
exactly. I remember 5 Truck telling us that they
got up staircase B because it was empty of
civilians, because we were telling them how we
were packed with civilians. They told us to take
B with them, and we ended up just staying in A.
That is what I remembered.
Q. Okay. If there's nothing else, that
concludes the interview. Thank you very much.
A. Thank you, Chief.
Q. Okay.
File No. 9110267
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD MASSA
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
R. MASSA 2
CHIEF KEMLY: Today is December 7th,
2001. The time is 10:20 in the morning.
This is Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of the
New York City Fire Department. I'm
conducting an interview with Richard Massa
of Engine 64, firefighter first grade. The
interview is taking place at the quarters of
Engine 64 regarding the events of September
11, 2001.
Q. Firefighter Massa, please tell me what
happened in your own words on September 11th.
A. I was chauffeuring for 64 Engine, and
we responded to the World Trade Center from a
command post on 125th Street and Third Avenue.
We went down there with about four other engine
companies. We went down there together.
On the way down we heard reports of the
first building collapsing, and we heard on the
dispatch system of people being trapped. I
remember one instance, there was a guy giving a
mayday from inside one of the apparatuses, of
being trapped inside there. It was hard to
believe what we were hearing.
Heading down the West Side Highway, I
R. MASSA 3
went down West Street as far as I could go, which
was on West and Eighth, West Street and Eighth
Street. I think it was called Eighth. I went
down as far as I could. There were apparatus
backing up all the way on West Street. So that's
as far down as I believe I was able to go.
Looking down to the World Trade Center,
I saw just really a puff of smoke where the north
tower would have been. I still found it hard to
believe that it was actually collapsed. I
thought maybe it was just hidden behind the
smoke.
When I got out, I started getting on my
gear to go down with my men. I realized that I
had no mask, because the chauffeur's mask was
being used by one of the firemen whose mask was
out of service. So I reported to my officer that
I had no mask. He said to hang back.
What I started doing right away was I
remember seeing one other chauffeur that was back
there with me. I didn't know who he was. We
started moving the rigs over to one side, because
all of West Street was blocked up. We figured if
anybody needed to get by - - I don't know if there
R. MASSA 4
was an order given for us to start doing that or
not, but I was kind of seeing to it myself. I
thought at least I could be doing something. I
could be moving the apparatus over.
I started moving a bunch of engines and
trucks over to the side. While I was doing that,
the north tower, the second tower to collapse,
collapsed. I watched that and backed up a little
bit from the smoke. It was really out of reach
from me. It was hard to tell at the time how far
it was going to go. But after that I continued
moving apparatus over to one side.
So from then when I lost my men, I
never met up with them until the evening time
after 6:00 o'clock. We got down there between
five and ten minutes before the second building
collapsed .
After that, after moving over the rigs
to the side, someone was going around with wheel
barrows collecting tools and anything that might
be important for down at the site. So I went to
a few apparatuses and looked for maybe halogens
or whatever they were looking for, extra masks,
to be brought down there, then setting up
R. MASSA 5
hospitals after that, just trying to set up or
help out with what I could at the time.
I went looking for my company a few
times, trying to head down as close as I could to
the Trade Center. There was always a lot of
people around. I know I met up with 94 Engine
for quite a while, from my battalion, and I knew
them pretty well. I hung out with them. We were
at a command post at the time, and we were told
to hang back while Seven World Trade was on fire
and they were afraid of collapse.
That's really pretty much how I spent
my day, trying to help set up what I could with
the hospitals or with equipment. I spent a lot
of time trying to look for my men. I tried to
listen by radio if I could hear where they may
be, but I never found them until after 6:00.
I really didn't get too close to the
buildings to really see anything that happened.
I was pretty much always a few blocks away.
If there's anything else that would be
important that I could tell you -- I didn't
report to any command post on my own.
Q. Okay. I've got a couple questions.
R. MASSA 6
When you said you got to Eighth Street,
you said you heard a mayday on the department
radio. Do you recall who gave it?
A. No, I don't. The fireman gave his
name. I'm not even sure. But I know he was
stuck in an apparatus.
Q. He didn't say what company?
A. He probably did. More than likely he
did, because I remember the dispatcher asking,
"Calm down and try to give the location where you
were." I remember hearing him saying that he was
running out of air. I was looking at my officer.
We were looking at each other like we couldn't
believe what we were hearing.
No, I don't remember his name or what
unit he was from.
Q. When you say another chauffeur and
yourself were moving rigs, apparatus, did you
happen to know what company he was from?
A. No. I didn't know who he was. I
didn't recognize him.
Q. Do you remember any of the company
numbers of the apparatus you were moving?
A. I really didn't pay attention.
R. MASSA
Q. The same thing happened when you took
the tools, you were putting the tools in, you
don't remember company numbers?
A. There wasn't any tools that were taken.
But no, I really wasn't looking. I probably knew
at the time but didn't try to remember.
Q. When you were moving the apparatus, you
were getting closer to the buildings?
A. No, I was just moving to the side.
Q. This is all the way up by Eighth
Street?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. When you say you hooked up with
94, that was after the collapses?
A. That was after the collapses.
Q. Okay. Unless you can think of
something else, that will be the end of the
interview.
A. No, I remember helping a few civilians
that were walking, back around that time after I
was moving the rigs, with oxygen. Some of them I
guess had difficulty breathing. So I used mine
from 64 Engine, my oxygen, to help civilians.
I remember one woman in particular, she
R. MASSA 8
took some oxygen for a few minutes, said thank
you and then I put the stuff back and started to
head down to hook up with some of my men. I
don't remember helping anybody else besides that
one woman.
There's nothing else I can think of as
far as incidents like that as far as helping any
civilians coming by. There were some around
there. There were some firemen back with me that
I know were helping people that were coming back
that needed maybe some oxygen.
Type of tools or what engine or truck
companies are gone from me.
Q. Do you have anything else?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Okay. That concludes the interview.
Thank you.
File No. 9110269
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER STEPHEN ELLIS
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
S. ELLIS
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today is the 7th of
December, 2001. The time is 4:06 p.m. I am Battalion
Chief Robert Burns, Safety Battalion, New York City
Fire Department. I am conducting an interview with --
FIREFIGHTER ELLIS: Firefighter Ellis, Engine
239, Firefighter First Grade.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: This is in regard to
the events that occurred on September 11th, 2001.
Q. Steve, if you could, just tell us in your own
words what you saw on that day.
A. Well, we responded through the Brooklyn
Battery Tunnel. We drove up West Street. I was in
search of a hydrant. We proceeded past both towers
going north on West Street, and I finally came across a
hydrant at the corner of West and Barclay.
I tested the hydrant. We hooked up. We had
water. Soon thereafter I found out that Engine 24,
which was located on Vesey Street and West Street,
needed to be augmented. So myself, Firefighter Brown,
Firefighter Martin and Firefighter Wheeler had
stretched three-inch line from my rig down West Street
from Barclay to Vesey and hooked into Engine 24' s rig,
and I had then gone back to my rig and started water
and augmented them.
S. ELLIS
Other than that, I was not in any of the
towers. I was there when the towers did collapse and
me and the rest of the members had gotten caught in the
huge dust cloud. That's about all I can tell you as
the chauffeur. The other members were, I understand,
going towards Tower 1 at the time, after they had
helped me stretch the three-inch hose to 24's engine.
That's about all I can say.
Q. So from the position you were in, did you see
the tower go down?
A. Yes. I saw the second tower, not the first
tower, the second tower go down.
Q. Did you see any units, where they were, or
any units that were involved in the collapse or the
identity of any people that you saw?
A. No. All I saw was 24's rig when I was
supplying them and going back to my rig. In the
immediate vicinity of the tower, I didn't see any other
rigs. Back by where I was parked on Barclay, I saw
Engine 235 ' s rig. But in the immediate vicinity of the
towers, I didn't see anybody else's rig that I can
remember besides 24. I was concentrating on supplying
them.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Okay. Great. That
S. ELLIS
concludes the interview. Thanks, Steve. It's 4:10
p.m.
File No. 9110270
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM WHEELER
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
Wheeler
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 7, 2001. The time is 4:52 p.m. I
am Battalion Chief Robert Burns, Safety
Battalion New York City Fire Department. I
am conducting an interview with William
Wheeler of Engine 239 in regard to the events
of September 11, 2001.
Bill, if you would, tell us in your
own words what you saw that day.
A. We went through the tunnel, responded
through the tunnel, we went up to the West Side
Highway. There was people all over the ground,
debris and whatnot. We stopped in front of the
building and dropped this guy off -- I'm not sure
who it was -- and proceeded past the building down
to, I think -- I'm not sure what street it is.
Warren Street or Murray Street, one of them. We
found a hydrant, stretched a 3 and a half inch line
off the back of the rig to 24 Engine who was parked
on the corner of Vesey and West Street, West Side
Highway.
I went back to the Engine back on Warren
Street, I think, took my roll-ups, live saving rope
Wheeler
and whatever else, other tools, went back up to the
command post in front of 2 World -- the World
Financial Center.
The building then fell down. We ran back
towards underneath the pedestrian bridge on the West
Side Highway, the north one, and stayed there for a
period of time. Then I was told by someone, the
Captain I believe it was, to go get a hand line and
stretch it into the basement of the World Financial
Center. I went back to do that. I stopped to wash
my eyes out and whatever.
The other building started falling. I ran into
a building on the corner of Warren Street and stayed
there for a while. I came back out, went back to
the rig. Then we went over to see if there was a
hydrant. 54 Engine was across the street from us.
We went, hooked it off the hydrant and started
working the gun on the top to see if we could get
the car fires out that were in the parking lot
across the street. But then they told us to shut it
off because there was no water pressure. They were
going to move a hand line in.
Then I went back and we reconnected our 3 and a
half that we had stretched to Engine 24 originally,
Wheeler
because it was covered in the collapse. We went to
stretch some more of it and got that all done, and
that's about it.
Q. When you said earlier that the building
fell down, that was the first building? The south
tower?
A. The south tower. That was the first.
Q. When you were on West Street stretching
lines, did you notice any units or the identity of
any people over there?
A. The only one I saw, 5 Truck was outside of
6 World Trade Center, the Customs building, with a
ladder up. I don't know. There was a tower ladder
out behind it. I believe it was 12. I'm not sure.
I saw 54 Engine across the street, I saw 2
Truck on the West Side Highway facing underneath the
pedestrian bridge. Let's see. There is not that
much more I remember seeing.
I saw 131 Truck when we first pulled up. I saw
131 get out of their truck. I saw 122 Truck when we
first pulled up, I saw them get out of their truck.
I saw the chauffeur for 16 Engine. I talked to him,
because I used to work there. And he was asking
me -- he was trying to back out of a block. He
Wheeler
asked me how far he could stretch a 3 and a half and
I really didn't know. I couldn't help him. I was
doing something.
And I saw the chauffeur of 235 after the
collapses asking where his company was, and I saw
231' s rig was around the corner from our rig, and I
saw their chauffeur. I didn't see any of their
guys. And there was a guy that was with us the
whole time. I don't know where that guy was from
though. He was with us. Like we used him to
untangle search ropes and stuff in the building,
after the second building fell. I don't know if he
was from Rescue or where he was from. He just came
out of the basement of the building and he was like
"Uhhh" and I don't know.
I think that's about it.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Okay. Thanks,
Bill.
The time is 4:56. That's the end of
the interview.
File No. 9110272
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER PETER BROWN
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
Burns
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 7, 2001. The time is 4:30 p.m. I
am Battalion Chief Robert Burns, Safety
Battalion of the New York City Fire
Department. I am conducting an interview
with Peter Brown, firefighter from Engine 239
in regard to the events of September 11,
2001.
If you would, Peter, just tell us in
your own words what happened on that day.
A. My name is Peter Brown, Firefighter First
Grade, Engine 239. We were sent on, I guess, a
second alarm. We staged at the mouth of the
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. While we were there, the
second plane hit. We got the word to go to the
tower and proceeded through the tunnel. There was
some traffic in the tunnel and Steve Siller from
Squad 1 jumped on the rig. We proceeded through the
tunnel. Steve Siller jumped out on Liberty and West
Street.
We proceeded past the two towers up to Barclay,
looked around. The rig faced south, we grabbed a
hydrant and we started to stretch the 3 and a half
back to Engine 24. They had water problems. We
Burns
hooked up the 3 and a half, stretched it to like 6
lengths off us, hooked up, pulled some lengths off
of them, put them all together, augmented them,
hooked into 6 World Trade Center, into the sprinkler
system, went back to our rig, got some -- put our
masks on, I grabbed a cylinder and a personal search
rope and we started heading back south again on West
Street.
All this time there were people jumping from
the building so we walked in the middle of the
street. We walked as a unit down the street and the
Lieutenant, I think, saw Chief Feehan and he said
proceed to the staging area. As we were walking,
the south tower started to collapse. The command
said the south tower was coming down. We looked up,
we saw the tower coming down. We ran back north,
hid under the north pedestrian bridge behind -- I
hid behind Ladder 3, and the dust clouds, debris
cloud blew by us and hung around a while. It was
pretty dark. We sort of thought we were buried
underneath the bridge.
It was me, Kevin Martin and another guy was there
who I thought was a Lieutenant, but I found out --
he was coughing. I helped him buddy-breathe and
Burns
then he said he needed water so we ran around the
side of the truck and got a can. I hit him in the
mouth with the can a little bit to get some of the
dirt and garbage out of his mouth. Finally the air
cleared and we realized we weren't buried under
debris and we regrouped. We got everybody together
and Lieutenant Mancuso said, "Let's get out of here.
This one's gonna come down." He said, "Get
everybody together" and we went back to our rig. It
was pretty much debris in our eyes and in our
mouths.
We went back to the rig and sort of took off my
mask and I had dropped some tools while we were
running. I guess the cylinder and the rope I had.
While we were there -- I was on Barclay, sort of
went around to this other building there. It was, I
think, the DC37 building, DC 10. Something like
that. And while we were in there we went to the
bathroom to wash up, get the stuff out of our eyes,
the second building came down. After that it was
pretty much an operation from a distance, I guess.
We didn't get in too close. We stretched a few
lines. There was cars on fire across the street in
the parking lot. We stretched some lines and put
Burns
them out and we did a variety of minor things.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Okay that's it,
That concludes our interview. The time is
4 : 34 p.m.
File No. 9110277
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER ARTHUR RICCIO
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
A. RICCIO 2
CHIEF KING: Today's date is December
10th, 2001. The time is 1718 hours. This
is Battalion Chief Steven King, Safety
Battalion, FDNY. I am conducting an
interview with Firefighter Arthur Riccio
from Ladder Company 119. He was on overtime
as a chauffeur in Ladder 110 on September
11th.
This interview is regarding the events
of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Artie, you can start whenever you want.
A. I came down Liberty Street. When I got
to Church Street, the second plane hit. We
didn't know it was a plane; we thought it was
helicopters going around. I thought a helicopter
went into it.
I stopped there. People were running
at us. It was like a movie. The lieutenant was
saying, "Back up, back up. Get out of here." I
stopped. I had people running all around me.
The women were losing their shoes. One woman
lost a pocketbook. We took the pocketbook, threw
it in the rig, and we gave it back to her about
three days later. She got her pocketbook back.
A. RICCIO 3
I backed out. I went down Broadway. I
came back around and wound up in the same spot,
Liberty and Church. I went up to Vesey Street.
I parked the rig on Church Street. We walked
down Vesey Street, and it was like total silence,
nothing. It was eerie. There were police cars
all parked on angles, metal going through their
hoods. There was a tire of a plane on top of
one.
We walked down Vesey, went into the
lobby. Battalion 11 came to us and said we have
people trapped on the 31st floor. In the lobby
was the Commissioner, Ganci, the Mayor was there,
Father Judge was there.
We walked around to the A staircase.
The A staircase was loaded with people. We
couldn't even get in there. Battalion 11, I
don't know who it was, he came around and said,
"You know what, this elevator here goes to 16.
Let's take the elevator." We asked, "Chief, do
you want to take the elevator?" He said, "Yeah,
come on, let's go. If only goes to 16, there
will be no problem."
So we took it, went to 16. We got out
A. RICCIO 4
and went into C staircase. As we started walking
up, we were telling civilians to go to the left
and we were going to the right. We walked up and
got to 21. 21 was locked. Chief said, "Maybe
another floor is open. Let's go up." We got to
28.
I was behind the chief. I said,
"Chief, this is 21. Where are we going?" He
said, "You know what, let's go back down and
force the door." We went back down to 21, forced
the door, we go in and searched all the
occupancies. Nobody was in there.
It was a little hazy. The bathrooms
were charred. I had to use my mask to look in
the stalls and make sure no one was in there. I
came out. It was like a horseshoe. The last
office, I was in there with Lieutenant Meara to
and this kid Mike, a proby.
All of a sudden we felt wind hitting us
in the face. We thought fire was coming in.
Every door we went through , we broke the locks
so it wouldn't lock behind us. As we go through
a door, we would hold the door closed. We would
lay on the floor with our feet on the door,
A. RICCIO 5
holding it.
I think 55 Engine was hooked up, and
they asked, "Where's the fire? Where's the
fire?" No fire. Paulie Howard was saying the
whole building shook. I was laying on the floor
saying, "Come on, this building -- it's got to
shake. Everybody was swaying." He said, "No,
this building's going down." I said to him,
"There was a bomb in the basement. It's not
going to go down. "
Every window was broken. There was
smoke coming down the hall, and I was just in
that office. I said, "You know what, I'll go
back in there. I know the layout." I go back
in, and the proby came with me. We went on the
whole outside. Every window was broken. All the
blinds were burnt. It was smoky. So we came
back out.
55 Engine said, "You need a line?" I
said, "There's no fire in there. I don't know
what it is. I don't know what happened." We
didn't know the building went down next to us.
We passed the C staircase and got to
the B staircase. We were standing right there,
A. RICCIO 6
and a chief, whoever he is, he saved our lives.
He was yelling, "Get out now. Get out." So we
started walking down. We were lucky we were in
the B staircase. They told us that the B
staircase was the only one that went out, the
only one that wasn't blocked with rubble.
On about 18 I saw two civilians trying
to get a lady -- she must have had arthritis
because her hands were bent. They were
permanently like this. So I said, "Come on,
we'll throw her in a chair." We put her in a
chair, and I took the back and a civilian took
the front. Actually another civilian took my
halogen, and we walked down. The rest of 110 was
behind me.
We walked down. I don't even remember
going down. They told me it was stop and go. It
was real slow going down. I was kidding with
her. She was crying. I was telling her, "Don't
worry, Uncle Artie's got you. We're going to get
out of here. No problem."
When we got down to the lobby, it was
like a bomb hit it. I looked around and said,
oh, my God, every window is busted. I was shaky.
A. RICCIO 7
My arms were shaking. I was totally exhausted.
I looked for an ambulance, got her into an
ambulance, and I sat down in front of the
building on West Street. I was sitting there and
I thought, my God, I can't move.
Another chief, another guy who saved my
life -- I don't know who he was -- he kept on
telling me, "Go north, go north. Get out of here
now." So we started walking up West Street. I
don't know even know how far we got. A block? I
know we walked under the first walkway, overpass.
I think we might have just got past there.
The guy said to me, "Run!" I turned
around, and it was a tidal wave of black coming
down on top of us. I couldn't run. I was done.
I knew that a two and a half foot wall in the
street was next to me. I couldn't see it, so I
just rolled to it. I tucked, I hit. I couldn't
put my mask on. I couldn't breathe. I was
pulling cement out of my mouth.
I finally found my mask and put my face
piece on. It was full of cement. I must have
laid there for five minutes, ten minutes, in
total darkness. The next thing I knew -- I was
A. RICCIO 8
totally at peace, I swear to God. I think all
our guys that died, they felt the way I felt. I
was ready. Total calmness came over me. It was
unbelievable.
The next thing I know, a guy from
122 -- I couldn't see his face in front of my
eyes. The way you can't open your eyes in the
morning like this. I had so much dust -- you
know the dust out there.
Q. Sure.
A. You couldn't open your eyes. I just
saw 122. The guy's lifting me up. He walked me
out .
After a while, a couple hours, I guess,
they went to start searching subways. We
regrouped and got saws together and were cutting
gates of subways and going down. They were
totally collapsed.
I did see in the lobby, though, a
friend of mine, John Crisci, as I was walking in.
He was from hazmat . They just got there behind
us. I thought they were getting assigned behind
us. He died. They said they found him between
the two towers, so they must have sent him over
A. RICCIO 9
to go into the south tower.
I think the people jumping was probably
my -- they were hitting the atrium as we were
going in .
Q. (Inaudible.)
A. Yeah. We had a proby. I told the guy,
"Don't look up. Just put your head down and
let ' s go. "
I know Mike said he felt the whole
building shake. We regrouped afterwards. I
don't know if Mike ran into a building through a
glass door or something. Another kid Mike, the
proby, he ran into the back of an ambulance. The
ambulance was open.
Over the Brooklyn Bridge, you saw black
coming down the side of the building. It was
like drippings. I said, "Lieutenant, what are
those windows, plastic? What's melted on them?
It looks like plastic going down the side of the
building." They said it was the jet fuel coming
down the side.
Otherwise seeing anybody, that's pretty
much it.
Q. That's terrific.
A. RICCIO 10
CHIEF KING: The time is 1727 hours,
and this interview is concluded.
File No. 9110278
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER LANCE LIZZUL
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
L. LIZZUL 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: It's December 10th,
2001. The time is 5:18 p.m., and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the New
York City Fire Department Safety Battalion.
I'm conducting an interview with Lance
Lizzul of Engine 47 in the quarters of
Engine 47.
Q. Lance, just relate to us anything you
saw on September 11th.
A. When the first plane hit, we heard the
alarms come in. Watching the TV, we saw the
second plane hit. They transmitted the second
fifth, and they sent us down.
We came all the way down West Street
and parked the rig I guess around Warren Street,
and we started walking up the block. I was the
chauffeur. The rest of the members of the
company got together, and they started walking.
I hooked up with another chauffeur. We
walked towards the Trade Center, and there was a
rig on the corner that was hooked up, and he was
fine. So we started walking towards the Trade
Center and actually stopped because of all the
jumpers and walked across West Street in front
L. LIZZUL 3
of, it looks like the Winter Garden, with the
atrium there. We were standing by the command
center, watching what was going on. Some of
these jumpers, I didn't look.
After a while just standing there,
waiting to see what was going on, we heard some
bangs. That made us look up, and that's when the
first Trade Center came down. We ran through
that building and past the atrium and came out on
Vesey and walked back up to West, helping people
as we could all along.
We just couldn't see anything. So we
waited a little while until it cleared. We
stayed on the corner. The chief started chasing
everybody back north, and we started moving back.
Then we heard the rumbling from the second one
and just turned around and ended up staying all
the way down north for most of the next couple
hours.
Q. The building that you ran through after
the first collapse, which building was that?
A. That was one of the Battery Park
buildings. It was just a building.
Q. This is all interconnected.
L. LIZZUL 4
A. Okay. Right. We ran right through the
command center, it was on the ramp going down,
and then the walkway was right next to that that
went into the building where the atrium was. We
ran through that building along the side, along
the side of the atrium, and out the side door and
came out on Vesey. There were people all over
the place on Vesey.
Then when we came out, we walked up
Vesey Street. The radios were silent. There was
no talking on the radios. Then I got to the
corner of Vesey and West, and the radio
communications started again. I heard Engine 74
giving maydays. I know with 74 there was 22 and
13 and they were all in the same building, 22 and
13, 74 and us.
Q. Which building?
A. It was supposed to be in the second
one. We ended up, I believe, in the first one.
By mistake someone took them there. I met our
control man, and then I saw him a little bit. I
walked down the block a little bit. He kept
going. I stopped and was just staring at the
building. I heard the rumbling of the second
L. LIZZUL
one, and it just came down and I just started
running again.
That's pretty much it.
Q. Thank you very much for your help,
Lance?
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 5:26
p.m., and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110280
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM CHESNEY
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
W. CHESNEY 2
CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is December
10th, 2001. The time is 10:20 a.m. I am
Battalion Chief Robert Burns, Safety
Battalion, New York City Fire Department,
conducting an interview with --
FIREFIGHTER CHESNEY: Firefighter First
Grade William Chesney assigned to Engine
Company 309.
CHIEF BURNS: This is in regards to the
events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Bill, if you would, just tell me in
your own words what happened that day.
A. Okay. We were assigned to relocate
Engine 309 to 33 Engine in Manhattan. That would
be after the first tower had fallen. After
coming over the Manhattan Bridge into Manhattan,
we were notified by the dispatcher to I believe
the Deutsche Bank, which had I believe been set
afire or there was a collapse there. I'm not
sure what the assignment was. I'm fuzzy on that.
We proceeded to the West Side Highway.
We made it up to Liberty next to the second World
Trade Center before it fell. We didn't exit the
engine. It was still running at the time. We
W. CHESNEY 3
heard popping, people, crowd, screaming. The
first tower had already fallen, so everything was
very unclear due to visibility, bad visibility,
because of smoke and ash.
We visually saw the beginning of the
first tower crumble, so the engine turned off on
Liberty and made its way over to Albany Street.
The tower had fallen. Our engine company then
exited the engine and proceeded over and
attempted to help out in any way they could with
civilians or Fire Department personnel who needed
assistance. Then we had other companies join us
that were scattered.
There was no water pressure downtown at
the time. It took a while for water to get to
the fires, Marine 2. We were down by Liberty
close to the water by Gateway Plaza. We were
assigned to put a fire out on the eighth or ninth
floor of Gateway at the time. We went up there
with hoses. We were drafting water from Marine 2
from a three and a half.
After that fire was out, we then
proceeded to put out additional pockets of fire
close to second World Trade. I believe it was
W. CHESNEY 4
adjacent to the Vista Hotel and three World
Trade.
For the rest of the day all we did was
assist rescue operations, basically. That's
basically the fundamentals of what happened.
Q. Did your unit get there prior to the
second tower collapsing?
A. Yes, we did, yes.
Q. Where were you when the second tower
collapsed?
A. I'm believing that we actually made it
over towards the pedestrian bridge close to
Liberty off the West Side Highway, because I
believe the Deutsche Bank is adjacent to the
second world tower or a block off. I'm not
positive. That's where our assignment was.
Q. When you guys got there, did you see
anyone or any companies that you can identify?
A. No. Due to the poor visibility, it was
very tough to see in front of your face. With
the smoke down there, the ash, it was very
difficult to see anything. Basically I just saw
through the fog on my end -- I'm not speaking for
anybody else -- was first and last of the clouds
W. CHESNEY 5
there were people running here and there.
There was no sense of direction. There
was no way to know what anybody else was doing,
so we just kept ourselves together and kept a
level head and just tried to make the best of the
situation, help out any way we could. That was
it.
Q. Okay. Great.
CHIEF BURNS: That concludes the
interview. It's 10:25 a.m.
File No. 9110281
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER STEVEN WRIGHT
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
S. WRIGHT
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Today's date is
December 10th, 2001. The time is 12:18 and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan, Safety Battalion of the
New York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an
interview with Steven Wright of Ladder 16.
Q. Steve, please give us anything you have about
the events on September 11th.
A. Sure. Okay. I remember being in quarters
here when somebody said a plane crashed at the World
Trade Center. We turned on the TV. We saw the hole in
the building. We thought it was just somebody, a bad
driver, a bad airplane driver or something went wrong.
As we watched and we saw the second one hit the
building, that's when we knew, we figured, everybody
thought it was a terror assault. We had a bad feeling
about this. So now the second plane hit and we get
called, I think, on the fifth alarm for the second
building.
So we leave quarters. We go down. We're
following 13, I guess, 22 and the 10th Battalion now.
We get down West Street. We see all the smoke. When
we report there, we park about, I guess, two blocks
north of the walkway on West Street and we start
walking down. There was a guy from 35 Truck, Shea. He
S. WRIGHT
borrowed one of our masks. I remember that.
As we're walking down, we're watching. We
see people jumping from the north building as we're
walking under the overpass, the walkway. Then we
reported to the staging area, which was directly across
from the north tower, which was 2 World Financial
Center, the Merrill Lynch Building. We were standing
in the staging area at the apron of a loading dock that
went underneath that building. The engine company was
on the north side of the ramp. The truck company was
on the south side of the ramp directly across from the
north tower. They started upping it and about 20 feet
was the ouija board, as they call it. Anyway, I
remember standing there looking up and looking at the
flames, seeing people jump. Again, it was about 20
people that jumped while we were standing there. I
remember being told as we were walking down there may
be a report of a third plane coming in, and I didn't
hear anything else about that.
So they gave some assignments to engine
companies and truck companies. 13 was the truck
company directly ahead of us. They got the last
assignment. I'm not sure which building they went
into. But 16 was the last truck company there and we
S. WRIGHT
were waiting for the assignment. I remember standing
like two, three feet away from the overhead doors that
were open in that loading dock, and I had my bunker
gear on with the tools on the side, mask on the side.
I stayed close to the building because I was taking
debris. I didn't know.
So I guess it was after about ten minutes, 15
minutes after 13 got their assignment, I remember
looking around and I heard this sound and I looked up
and it was the south tower crumbling, coming down. We
all just took off, turned around and ran straight to
the back of the loading dock underneath 2 World
Financial Center. Moments went by. Smoke had come in
the loading dock, a good amount at the beginning, but I
had ended up in the back and it wasn't that bad back
there. So then people were calling out to try to find
other firefighters and stuff. I remember walking back
in. I found all my guys except one. I couldn't find
one. He went off and went out the back of the
building. He made his way out the back.
So we ended up, the rest of us, coming back
out of the loading dock to the front of that building
where we were standing and looking for people who were
hurt and looking a little bit scarred but they were
S. WRIGHT
walking around. There was one EMS guy. He was about a
400-pound guy. He was laying down on the ground. One
of the guys found a gurney, I guess, his gurney that he
had. There were about 15 of us there. We picked him
up, put him on the gurney. My guys went to push him up
the apron to the sidewalk, which was closer towards the
north building, which didn't collapse yet, but my
officer said, no, we're going to bring him back down
the ramp to the back, to the loading dock, out the back
of the building. That turned out to be a good move.
So we went to the back, picked him up on top
of the loading dock there in the back about four feet.
Again, there were like 15 of us, so 400 pounds wasn't
too bad. We found we had to go up like another two
levels to get out the rear of the building that goes
back towards the marina. So we found an elevator. Two
of us got on the elevator. I was one of them and
another fireman with this heavy guy, the EMS worker on
the stretcher. The other guys walked up. The elevator
went down. What a mistake!
So now it was just me and another fireman.
We were in the basement with this guy that's 400 pounds
and the elevator wasn't working correctly. So good
thing we got off. I remember we were looking for a
S. WRIGHT
stairwell so we could get this guy up, and I remember
saying how did this happen, me and this other fireman
with this 400-pound guy. We couldn't budge. We tried
getting him up the stairs. It was like we got him up
three stairs, let alone three floors.
So I remember looking around for the
stairwell and all of a sudden the building started
rumbling and the lights went out for about ten
seconds. I turned my light on and I'm just thinking,
I'm hoping this building isn't collapsing. I thought
it was the tower coming down across the highway, but I
didn't know for sure. For about ten seconds the
building rumbled and then it stopped, and I felt very
relieved .
I called for some more assistance to see if
we could get this guy out, and then my officer was
telling me, Steve, come on out of the basement because
I think I smell something burning in this building much
lower. So me and this other guy, that's when we tried
to lift him up. We couldn't lift him up. So finally
we got some help. Within a couple minutes we got some
more help and we got him up, I think, 43, some guys.
The north tower did come down. That's what made that
building rumble like that. We came out the back. I
S. WRIGHT
don't have that EMS worker's name. The other fireman
that was with me, he was all right. I met him the
other day. His name is Gary. We put him on a PD boat
and they took him to a hospital in Jersey or Staten
Island .
After the collapse, we were walking around.
We started heading south, near the marina, and from
there we started to help stretch a line from one of the
boats for about two blocks. We stretched it and that
took a little while. Then I remember we walked back up
alongside of the marina. We headed north again. I
don't know what street that is. I was with the
officer. I was trying to find out who to report to,
what was happening, and nobody had a clue. So it was
like we were on our own.
After that we waited there for a little while
and then we made our way back into 2 World Financial
Center where we came out. We went back through the
back of the building, back through the loading dock,
back out to the front, and we started climbing the
metal, the debris field. We started looking for
people. We didn't see anybody. Well, the people that
we did see, they were crushed. So other than that, I
really don't --
S. WRIGHT
Q. When you were standing fast at the staging
area, did you hear any Maydays or anything that would
indicate the collapse, any warning signs of the
collapse?
A. No. I didn't notice any Maydays, not that I
can remember. But I know there were two different
channels, one for each tower. I think each tower had a
different station. Anyway, it seemed to be a little
foggy.
Q. Did you see anything looking at the building
that indicated --
A. No. I just remember seeing just the flames,
and when I heard the noise, I was already looking
away. But I remember talking to some other guys. They
remembered seeing the floors being blown out, I guess,
when each floor collapsed on each other. I didn't see
that. I heard the sound. I looked up. I saw the
building collapsing and just like being pulverized, the
smoke, and I probably looked at it for about a second
and I just took off, if a second. Once I saw that, I
was like, whoa, get out of here.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Well, thank you,
Steve.
FIREFIGHTER WRIGHT: Okay.
S. WRIGHT
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The time now is
12:28 and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110282
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER VANDON WILLIAMS
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
V. WILLIAMS
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 11th, 2001. The time is 1:14 p.m. I'm
Battalion Chief Robert Burns of the Safety Battalion,
New York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an
interview with --
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAMS: Firefighter Vandon
Williams, Battalion 49.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: This is in regards to
the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. If you would, just tell us in your own words
what happened on that day.
A. I was just finishing a 24-hour tour on the
10th, which is my wedding anniversary. I was looking
for my relief to come in at the time that the first
plane hit the Tower 1. I watched it on television from
our quarters here in Astoria. Then when the second
tower was hit, the signal came in for us to proceed to
a staging area by the Midtown Tunnel.
So, knowing that I would not be relieved in
time, I just decided that it was best that I go on and
handle this event. I proceeded to the staging area at
the Midtown Tunnel. We were there for, I guess,
approximately 30, 35 minutes, until the Midtown Tunnel
was cleared out, and then we proceeded through the
V. WILLIAMS
Midtown Tunnel to the west side, going down to the area
of West Street and Vesey.
Upon getting to the west side, we were able
to park our apparatus, and I believe we might have had
about ten to 15 units as a convoy from Queens. We
proceeded and we parked our car about a block or two
blocks north of Chambers and West Street, and we
proceeded by foot toward the command post at Vesey and
West. I got as far as a block north of Chambers and
West and I was told by my Battalion Chief, Chief Mike
Keenan, to make sure that all the units that were with
us were accounted for and he proceeded to go toward the
command post, and once I had checked everybody off that
had come with us, then I would proceed down to the
command post.
So one block north of Chambers, I stopped and
turned around and proceeded to count off the companies
that came in. I guess I was doing that for about a
good five or six minutes, about five minutes or so, and
then I heard a rumbling. As I turned around, I saw
people and some firefighters coming toward me and I
looked up and I could actually see Tower No. 1 coming
down.
So at that time I tried to get myself as
V. WILLIAMS
close to -- there was a police tow truck on my side,
looking at the Hudson River. There were two police tow
trucks parked there. So I just covered, bent next to
one of the tow trucks and bent my head down until the
smoke cleared. For me the eerie thing was not hearing
any communications on the radio, any transmissions,
anything, until most of this acrid, black smoke had
cleared away, and then I could hear the sounds of our
pass alarms going off around. Once most of the black
smoke had kind of lightenend up and we were still in a
fog-type state or a fog-type atmosphere, I tried to
proceed down toward Vesey and West, where my Battalion
Chief Mike Keenan was.
So I got to meet him. Around Murray and West
we met up. We proceeded to set up a secondary command
post at Chambers and West Street. That was the call
that was given out to the units, that there would be a
command post set up at Chambers and West.
Then we proceeded down toward Vesey Street.
We proceeded southbound on Vesey Street until we came
to West and Vesey, and at that point Chief Keenan
started to operate at the north side of 6 World Trade
Center, the U.S. Customs Building. The pedestrian
bridge at that point, that I could look at, was already
V. WILLIAMS
down and completely destroyed. I was standing on the
north side of the pedestrian bridge listening to Chief
Keenan as he went up and tried to get onto one of the
levels that was still standing on the Customs Building,
doing communications with him and finding out what
companies that we had that were able to go forward and
help with some of the extinguishment as far as an
engine company and a truck. I don't know the names of
the companies that helped us to go work at that, but
there was a truck company and an engine company that
were being put into action to work on the Customs
Building.
At that time I also met the 14th Division
Chief, a Chief McNally, and for the most of my duration
I was there operating with him doing communications on
the tactical and the channel for the Chiefs, going
between both of them to try to ascertain who we had,
what we could find in that area. I believe I worked
with Chief McNally for a couple of hours before I was
released to go with Chief Keenan.
We proceeded to go around the pedestrian
building and try to go south toward the World Trade
Center No. 1. In order to get there, we had to walk
around the World Financial Center building, the
V. WILLIAMS
American Express Building, toward the water, which
would be going west toward the Hudson River. We were
able to walk around the building and come out around
the Winter Garden building, and at that time we were
now just looking at what was left of the World Trade
Center No. 1.
We proceeded to walk over some of the metal
and steel beams and stuff and we were able to get to a
point where we were high enough to see a couple of
mounds of just twisted metal, and we stood there while
there were groups of firefighters, I'm not sure what
units they were, that were proceeding down the mound
and trying to get up to the second level of the mound
to start our searches.
At that time I was able to see two
civilians. One was standing up on the mound and
firefighters were able to get to him and another one,
and we were able to bring them out in the Stokes
baskets down through the mound. It could have been an
hour, hour and a half we were doing that before we were
ordered to move away from that part of Tower No. 1
because there was an imminent danger of collapse of
World Trade Center No. 5 and 7.
So he proceeded to take us from that area and
V. WILLIAMS
we proceeded back from that part of the World Trade
Center No. 1, all units, Chief Keenan and I and some
other Battalion Chiefs there. I know Battalion 46,
Chief Turner was there. We operated also under the SOC
command of Chief Seigel looking over those areas of
Tower No. 1. Once they recalled us from that area, we
proceeded back over to the area where we started at,
Vesey and West. I was there approximately 15 hours. I
left at 11:00 that evening.
Part of my duties with the 49 and the 14th
Division, I was also used to do logistics and command
with Deputy Chief -- I don't want to say his name
wrong. It will come to me.
Well, I'll say this. This happened to be
closer toward the evening. I guess it was close to
about 4:00 or 5:00 o'clock, as it started turning more
toward the sunset. We had been working on the north
tower and we proceeded back over to West and Vesey. At
that time I was able to see Chief Fellini talking with
Chief McNally and other Chiefs on the scene that came
in. But I was able to do liaison. I was there to set
up for what other units that came in in the staging
area and I worked as the aide that proceeded to tell
what units would go in and what areas the Chiefs wanted
V. WILLIAMS
to work with. I can't think of that Chief's name, but
I liaisoned with him.
Before the night was over with, I was one of
the firefighter liaison officers in the temporary
Office of Emergency Management, and I worked with Chief
Cantley, I think, if I'm not mistaken, in the OEM
office from about 10:00 until midnight, and at that
time they released the 49 Battalion to come back to
Queens. Basically, that's what I did.
Outside of seeing some carnage and being able
to see at least us pull two civilians and bring them
out, and they were alive when we brought them out, much
of my recollection, outside of what I thought was
papers and stuff coming out of Tower No. 1 while it was
still up, I now realize there were some falling bodies
just coming down. That's the extent of what I
remember .
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Okay. Great,
Vandon. Thanks for the interview. The time is 1:27
p.m.
File No. 9110283
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER FRANCIS NASH
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
2
Nash
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 11, 2001. The time is 11:13 a.m. I
am Chief Robert Burns, Safety Battalion of
the New York City Fire Department. I am
conducting an interview with Firefighter
Francis Nash, Engine 260, Firefighter First
Grade, and this is in regard to the events of
September 11, 2001.
Q. If you could, in your own words, Frank,
would you tell us what happened on that day.
A. We were responding, Engine 260, to the
World Trade Center, going through the Midtown
Tunnel. We were heading south on the West Side
Highway where we parked our rig and we proceeded to
walk down West Side Highway to the World Trade
Center. The number 2 World Trade Center was already
collapsed as we were responding and as we were
walking to the World Trade Center number 1, we were
approximately 100 yards away when the building
number 2 collapsed.
At that time, we ran for safe cover. And
that's the story.
Q. You said you were 100 feet away. Do you
know - -
Nash
A. I mean yards.
Q. 100 yards. Do you know what direction you
were in?
A. We were north of the tower, by Barclay
Street. Between Barclay and Vesey. Maybe a little
more than 100 yards between there. Barclay and
Vesey Street.
Q. When the second tower came down, did you
see anyone? Did you see any units?
A. I saw people jumping out of the building.
I didn't see any units. I saw, you know, when the
building came down I was with other companies from
the 45 Battalion and we were all retreating at the
same time, and we got caught in the huge dust cloud
for a few minutes, and then we went back to go look
for companies until another chief told us to go
back.
When we went looking for companies, we saw some
damaged rigs. I can't tell you which companies they
were. Then we were ordered by a chief to leave the
area.
Q. You said you were there prior to the
collapse. Did you hear any transmissions on
someone's handy-talkie or any radios just prior to
4
Nash
the collapse?
A. No. I didn't have a department radio.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Okay. Thanks,
Frank. That concludes our interview. It's
11:16 a.m.
File No. 9110284
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JAMES POWERS
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
Powers
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Today's date
is December 11, 2001, and the time is
11:25 a.m. This is Battalion Chief Dennis
Kenahan from the Safety Battalion of the Fire
Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with James Powers,
Firefighter First from Engine 35. The
interview is taking place in the quarters of
Engine 35.
Q. James, just tell us the events as you
remember them on September 11th.
A. The morning of September 11th I arrived at
Engine 35 to get into uniform to go to an
educational day. Before I left, the TV showed us
the first tower smoking and fire. We didn't even
know what it was before I left to go to the Rock,
Randall's Island. By the time I got to Randall's
Island, the Lieutenant conducting educational day
told us that a plane had hit the first tower and
that we might be going back to our companies. He
didn't know yet, but he was going to start
educational proceedings. As soon as he said that,
the second plane hit the second tower. Within
minutes we were dispatched back to our companies.
Powers
I reported to Engine 35 and reported in to
Lieutenant Whalen. Lieutenant Whalen put me in the
Engine and said, "Right now you're going to be our
fifth man in the engine." We took roll call of the
units that had already been sent here as a staging
area and within 15 minutes of being brought back,
maybe even ten minutes of being brought back to the
firehouse Engine 35 was dispatched to the World
Trade Center.
We were told by the dispatcher to use the West
Side Highway and we went across 125th Street and we
went down. Myself, firefighters Lowrey, Vanname,
Fischer, and Keith Schroeder were on the rig with
Lieutenant Whalen. We also had Lieutenant Patten
and Battalion Chief Horan on 35 ' s rig. We reported
in down at West Side Highway, West Street, right
above Barclay Street, and we ran into battalion
chiefs there. We had heard on the radio the first
tower collapsed. We heard somebody on the
department radio calling for help, saying he was
trapped .
We were told that we were going to be going
into World Trade Center number 1, the north tower
building, because it was still standing and there
Powers
was still fire. When we got to the battalion chiefs
that were on West and, I believe, Barclay, they
said, "Okay. Make sure you've got everything, your
roll-ups. We're still going into this tower number
1 or World Trade Center number 1."
At that time there was heavy black smoke
pumping from the top floors of the tower. You could
see the collapse dust and stuff around the other
buildings, and the top of the tower was just blazing
black smoke. On our way to the building, we had
just passed Vesey Street, we were near the
pedestrian bridge when you heard the rumble and the
roar of the building and at which point we all
looked up. Nobody really moved for a second. The
tower began to collapse and we all ran back up the
West Side Highway. We ran with our gear still on.
We dropped our folds, roll-ups and ran hard up West
Street.
I made it to, I believe, either Murray or Park
Place, wherever the high school was, and the
collapse, the dust and the debris had already caught
up to me and was actually pushing me, and I dove
into the left of that street, whether it was Murray
or Park Place. I don't know where it was, but I
Powers
dove in there and somebody pulled me into the high
school and when I got into the high school there
were already firefighters and Police Officers in
there. When I was there I realized that I didn't
have any of the guys that I was with with me, so I
went back out onto that street. But when I did, I
was immediately lost in the black dust and I
couldn't even see my way to get back into the
building that I just came out of. I put my face
piece on and started breathing the air, but I
realized the face piece was contaminated and I was
sucking some stuff in.
I went onto the West Side Highway and slowly
walked through the black and gray dust heading back
towards where we were to see if anybody was still
there, to see where everybody was. When I got back
to where I think we were, which was below Vesey but
above the pedestrian bridge, there was a couple of
people just completely covered with dust and I just
brushed them off and chased them back to go north on
the West Side Highway. I did run into one of my
guys, Keith Schroeder, and asked him where everybody
was and he said he didn't know. He didn't know.
We stayed together and then we saw Billy
Powers
Vanname, our chauffeur, and we asked him about our
lieutenant, Lieutenant Whalen and also Lieutenant
Hadden and Chief Horan, who had gone ahead of us
towards the tower, and they were in front of us
while we were walking towards it.
We then found our Firefighters Fischer, Lowrey
and our Lieutenant Whalen, and we started picking up
our folds to go down towards fire. There was fire
on the streets, there was fire in the cars. And
then he realized the roll-ups were gonna do us no
good, so we dropped our roll-ups and we started
looking to help people and I was -- I had breathed
in a whole bunch of stuff and I was starting to get
dizzy and I could feel myself trying to breathe, but
I couldn't get any air into where I was and I
started getting lightheaded.
We helped a couple more people back up the West
Side Highway. We split up, I stayed with Billy
Vanname. The other guys went down into underneath
the pedestrian bridge with a line they had to try to
put out fire. We then found Lieutenant Hadden and
he told us that Chief Horan was okay. He told us
the tower came down on top of guys in the hotel and
we were gonna try to get to that.
Powers
Maybe 15 minutes later I was completely
overcome by all the dust I had already breathed in
and I could no longer operate and I was starting to
pass out. I don't think I passed out. Somebody
says I did. I was treated by a couple of EMT's and
some firefighters and they took me back up the West
Side Highway to near Murray Street and we were
sitting there and then somebody said that there was
a major gas leak in one of the buildings and we had
to run from there, so everybody started running
again. As I tried to run, I knew I could no longer
run. So I was loaded onto a green golf cart and I
was taken to St. Vincent's Hospital and I was in and
out. I could breathe in, but I felt like I wasn't
getting any air, and I was taken to St. Vincent's
Hospital approximately 45 minutes to an hour after
my arrival at the World Trade Center.
Q. That's it?
A. That's it.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Thank you,
Jimmy. The time now is 11:33 and this
concludes the interview.
File No. 9110286
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH SULLIVAN
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
J. SULLIVAN
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: The date is December
11, 2001. The time is 1442 hours. This is
Battalion Chief John Malkin of the safety
battalion.
I'm conducting an interview with firefighter
6th Grade Joseph Sullivan, Engine 224. We are at
the quarters of 224, and this interview is
regarding the events of September 11, 2001, and
following this is the interview.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay. We responded from quarters. The
ticket came in at 8:54. We were going on the first
alarm to the staging area by the Brooklyn Battery
Tunnel. En route to the staging area, we were going
down Columbia Street, saw the second plane strike the
building and we went from being a, quote, good job or a
rough job, or we were going to earn our money today.
Some of the guys put it, to -- started
realizing that it was a terrorist incident, that we
were -- you know, we were in for more than we thought
originally.
We pulled into the staging area. We were
there for maybe -- it's a little foggy. Maybe four,
five minutes. I got all my gear set.
J. SULLIVAN
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Then I remember getting sent in. The only --
the only other companies that I remember hearing over
the radio besides us, there was a bunch of -- I
remember hearing 202, 101, I'm pretty sure, and went
through the tunnel.
It was pretty slow go. I was sitting with my
back to the lieutenant, and I remember seeing
people out the window, seeing people in buses trying to
use their cell phones being confused after seeing all
the apparatus going by, not knowing what was going on.
They were scared. One guy yelled up into the
-- up to us, "Are we going to be able to get out of
here?" We were nervous that maybe somebody was going
to bomb the tunnel also. Eventually, we got out of the
tunnel with a sigh of relief, started making our way
down, going down West Street, see some stuff on the
floor, pieces of bodies, bone, stuff like that.
Really couldn't see up. The buildings are
too tall. I saw one body. Most of it was just pieces
of bodies. As we were riding in, we must have ran over
some debris from the plane. We saw debris all over the
floor. We saw a wheel. There was cars that were
flattened. It was obvious that heavy things had fallen
J. SULLIVAN
on them, but the reason that I say that we ran over
something is because we had pulled up -- I believe it
was in front of the south tower, and Smitty was driving
that day, the chauffeur. He didn't like where we were,
and he shimmied up a little more. We saw tranny fluid
on the floor, so Richie Saulle climbed underneath there
with some putty, and I cut some chocks up, little
splinters, and kind of plugged it up.
Q. Coming from where? Where was it coming from?
A. From underneath the tranny pan.
Q. From your rig?
A. From our rig, yeah. So just quick tried to,
like, patch it up. At that time, as far as I know, we
didn't have any orders, as far as where to go.
We went up there. Lieutenant DeSimone told
us to get settled, get an extra cylinder ready, ready
to grab your hose rollups, like that. There was a
transmission. I didn't have a radio on at the time.
I'm just going by what I heard going on around me, but
I don't know who it was or exactly where it came from,
if it came from the command center or not.
Somebody had told us to move up towards Vesey
Street, I guess in order to relay water, if it was
needed. So we did so, and then Lieutenant DeSimone
J. SULLIVAN
asked us again to get our cylinders, hose rollups
ready, and by the time we twisted and turned, the first
building had come down, started to fall.
People scattered. I was right next to
Lieutenant DeSimone. We took a knee, masked up,
covered over us. It was -- that lifted relatively
quick, the first one. I don't know if it was because
we were blocked by the north tower or some of the other
buildings. That lifted relatively quickly.
I went ahead and I started looking around.
It looked just like snow, and I took my mask off, put
my hood up over my face, and I went over by another
member, Mike Hazel. He was giving blows of air. There
were a couple of cops. There was a maintenance man.
Turned out to be a maintenance man, afterwards we found
out, from one of the buildings, so I was giving him a
hand .
We were doing that, and then we got oxygen
off the rig and gave it to the maintenance man. We
were looking out for Smitty, and for Stu Bailey.
Smitty had run down the block. Stu Bailey had run down
the block, and now we were looking for them to make
sure that they were all right, because actually when
the building had come down, on the angle that it was --
J. SULLIVAN
the north tower was over here. You won't be able to
get this on tape, but the north tower was kind of
blocking the south tower.
Q. Okay.
A. Because of its natural angle.
Q. Yeah.
A. Yeah. You could see it right there on the
map, so here we are, yeah.
Q. You guys were parked. Now, we are talking
about the north tower shielding you from the south
tower collapse?
A. Yeah.
Q. So where were you guys at that time?
A. From the best of my knowledge, I'd say that
we were up right around -- we were up right around
here.
Q. Okay. He's indicating with the rig, right?
A. Yes.
Q. The indication is that they're on West Street
at the north foot bridge, so that would be just north
of the first tower, the north tower.
A. So we were still covered over, but it lifted
relatively fast compared to the second one.
Now, when it did collapse, I saw a chunk come
J. SULLIVAN
down. I thought it was a partial collapse, like maybe
part of the fascia coming down, so we were actually
looking, you know. It came down, and we were looking,
and all of a sudden the cloud rushed. It was like
whoa, but then a couple of seconds it overtook us. So
we may have stopped then. A couple of other firemen
came out. I don't want to curse, but for lack of a
better word they were, mother ba, ba, ba, bouncing
their helmets off the floor.
Q. Where did they come out of?
A. They were south of us. They were a little
south of us. They came and they started moving up.
One of the firemen -- I don't remember where he's
from. He was a ladder, because I remember he had a red
patch. He had a gash on his head. Triaged him,
patched him up.
A couple of other people -- like I said, we
gave oxygen to the maintenance man. A couple of other
people running around, dazed, grabbed them, checked
them out. We were looking for Smitty. We were looking
for Stuey.
Q. Smittie and Stuey are guys from your company?
A. Yes, yes. Yes, members of the company.
Q. Where did they go? Where were they at this
J. SULLIVAN
time?
A. They went north. They started moving up
north.
Q. When the building was coming down?
A. When the building was coming down. So they
went north, and Smitty had come back. We found him.
Stuey later on had hooked up with another company, was
coming around looking, see what he could do.
After that, there was a lot of commotion.
It's a little hazy. I remember somebody screaming and
the second tower was coming down, the north tower, and
that was coming down, and we just took off running.
Actually, I still had my extra cylinder in my hand. I
started running, felt it was slowing me down.
Discarded that.
I had a choice to go left on Vesey Street or
to continue straight. As I turned, thinking about
going left on Vesey, I decided not to, but I saw the
cloud coming, pressed the face piece up against my
face, turned on my air cylinder and started walking
along the fence. I remember a chain link fence.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Started walking along the chain link fence.
I didn't want to run because I know I depleted some of
J. SULLIVAN
my tank with the previous collapse and from giving air
to people, so I just remember trying not to panic going
at a hurried pace, but not running and sucking down my
bottle.
As I'm going, I heard somebody -- I remember
somebody moaning or something like that, and I reached
off the fence, and I went off the fence a little bit.
I couldn't find anybody. I started going forward, and
I bumped into another person, which turned out to be
one of the guys from my company, Mike Hazel. I bumped
into him. "Who's that?" He said, "It's Mike Hazel.
Who's that?" I said, "It's Sully." Running out of
air. Changed my tank out for me. He still had his
extra cylinder.
Q. Okay.
A. Changed that along the fence, and as luck
would have it, another member came by with a
flashlight, and he was looking with the flashlight, and
we walked out along the fence, kept going north till we
were out of the cloud.
This one was very thick, the second one,
because I remember as I was walking, and I had the face
piece cheated up against my face, I had knocked my
helmet back trying to get it on, and I didn't get it on
10
J. SULLIVAN
till right before I changed Mike's cylinder, but I
wiped across my face piece, thinking that it was just
ash, or dust on the face piece. When I wiped it clear,
it was still black. It was still -- you couldn't see.
It was pretty thick.
As we walked out, started to dissipate.
People -- somebody turned on a hydrant. People --
cops, everybody were diving into the hydrant, trying to
wash their faces off, wash their mouths out. It was
filthy, wretched water, but nobody cared. There was
nurses and doctors coming around with eye wash.
There was a transmission to go north. I
remember a disturbance by the water. I saw a police
officer come out to the street and start directing
people away from the water, and it turned out there was
a gas leak or something, but at the time we didn't know
if it was a bomb or -- so we just kept getting orders
to go north, go north, go north.
Eventually we turned around, and we went
north, settled and regrouped and worked our way down a
little bit to investigate and see what was going on.
As far as anybody that has passed or is
missing that I saw -- the only person I thought I might
have seen was Dennis Oberg. I thought I saw him.
11
J. SULLIVAN
Q. Who's he?
A. He was a probie in my class.
Q. What company?
A. Geez, I forget what company he's in. I
really don't recall, Chief, I'm sorry. I thought I saw
him after the second collapse. The first collapse
rather. I'm sorry. But I can't guaranty that, but
that was about it on -- I had seen Terry Rivera when we
came in. He narrowly got away. He's in 10 truck. He
was on the detail. I actually spoke to him the night
before, because I had a friend that's in the academy
being assigned there for his seven-week rotation.
I spoke to him the night before, and as we
were coming down West Street, I saw him, and it wound
up that when the first building was coming down, I
guess some of the other firemen -- this is the story
he's telling me, that they thought it was debris coming
down, and they ran into the lobby, and he drove
underneath the rig, and the building came down and
that's why he was alive, instead of going in, going
under the rig.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Throughout the rest of the day, I was across
the street from -- I'll show you on the map. Where the
12
J. SULLIVAN
movie theatre is across the street from the telephone
company.
Q. This is the north tower. This is the south
tower .
A. South tower, and where would the telephone
company be? That's it right there.
Q. Okay.
A. So I would imagine it's right around here is
the movie theatre.
Q. Indicating across West Street on the west
side of West Street just north of Vesey.
A. I was again with Mike Hazel. I stuck with
him. He's one of the senior members. I stuck with him
most of the day, and we were walking back towards where
our captain was, because after the recall he had come
in. This is later on in the day, and we heard a rumble
that Building 7 was coming down, so we didn't know what
to expect, so we wound up doing -- actually a broken
window in the door of the theatre. There were two
police officers actually walking next to us so I told
them, I says, "Duck in there," and we both ducked in
there, too, and it really didn't, you know, reach us.
We came out and went down to see what we
could do with helping with the stretch, because now by
13
J. SULLIVAN
this time they were starting to draft, so I think it
was -- I don't know what marine company was drafting,
but it was 53 engine, into 84 engine, to us.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. The 224, because we actually -- when we were
getting ordered up north, all of a sudden we started
hearing 224, start water. That's why we wound up going
down and investigating.
Q. Right.
A. Because the rig had to be okay, so we wanted
to go down and man the rig. There was -- I remember
there was really no pressure in the hydrants.
Q. Right. Who was calling you to man -- to
supply water? You don't know?
A. I don't know. I don't know, to be honest
with you, but I do know that the water pressure was
terrible. The volume -- it looked like there was
volume there. You turn on the hydrant, there was water
flowing out, but, I mean, the hoses barely filled, you
know, at any rate.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Then they started drafting later on in the
afternoon, and the rest of the day we were pretty much
by the rig. The rest of the night, I should say.
14
J. SULLIVAN
I think we probably went home around eleven,
started heading back towards the house, as far as I can
remember .
Q. Go back to when you took the position at the
hydrant after you were first at the south tower and
they told you go up north, you wound up somewhere north
of the north tower by the foot bridge, right?
A. We were by the hook.
Q. Okay, you hooked up?
A. As far as I can remember, yeah.
Q. And then go over where the guys were again,
what duties they performed, how long you were there,
how long you operated there. What did you do there?
A. Well, geez, let me think how long we were
there. I had moved up. We were --
Q. Go ahead.
A. It's hard with the time. We were helping the
chauffeur to hook up.
Q. Okay.
A. I'm trying to think if --
Q. How long were you there when the south tower
came down?
A. How long were we there when the south tower
came down? Maybe 15 minutes or so, maybe.
15
J. SULLIVAN
Q. Okay, 15 minutes. You helped him hook up?
A. We were helping him hook up. I remember
actually I think the -- also the first -- the first
place that we stopped we might have started to hook up
also there.
Q. Okay.
A. And then had to pack it back up.
Q. Okay.
A. I remember for some reason we went with him
when he moved.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. We were helping him. I remember helping
Richie Saulle with trying to plug up the tranny pan. I
remember Lieutenant DeSimone telling us to get an extra
cylinder, get a hose rollup, and then he says we're
going to go over and see what the story is.
Q. Where were you now? You had moved up to the
north part?
A. We had -- I'm trying to think if it's after
the first time or the second time we moved. I think
that was actually after the first time we moved.
Q. Okay. Did you get your rollup and your
cylinder?
A. Yes, we actually took the rollups off the
16
J. SULLIVAN
rig, and we had --
Q. Did you walk up to the building any place to
the south tower? Did you walk away from the rig?
A. We started -- yeah, we walked away from the
rig. We started walking towards the building, yes,
okay. It was after the first time we moved that he --
what do you call it? That we started going towards the
building, and that's whether they were ordered to move
up.
Q. So you put everything back on the rig?
A. So I put the hose rollup back on the rig.
Q. Right.
A. I didn't put my cylinder back into the proper
spot. I just stowed it, tossed it the rig.
Q. Did you get back on the rig to ride up to the
other spot? You walked up the other spot?
A. Walked, walked.
Q. Now, the rig goes up to West Street where you
indicated north, somewhere in the vicinity of the north
walk bridge?
A. The north walk bridge.
Q. You found the hydrant?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you said you helped the chauffeur
17
J. SULLIVAN
hook up.
A. Helped the chauffeur hook up.
Q. And two guys went where? There was something
about two of you fellows went --
A. When the building came down.
Q. Now, how long were you there? You said 15
minutes maybe?
A. Maybe 15 minutes. I tell you the truth, it's
very hazy.
Q. So what happened in that 15 minutes? You
just --
A. I tell you the truth, people jumping out of
the buildings.
Q. Okay.
A. I tell you the truth, that was quite a shock,
too. I mean, there we were, and out of the corner of
my eye, I thought maybe it was a piece of debris
falling down. It was a person jumping out of the
window, and another one, another one, another one, and
I don't know. It was pretty hazy as far as, like, how
much time --
Q. Okay.
A. -- was spent or what was going on, and again
I didn't have a radio.
18
J. SULLIVAN
Q. Right.
A. So I couldn't really hear what was going on.
I could only hear if I was next to somebody.
Q. Right.
A. You know.
Q. Was your officer there with you?
A. I remember Lieutenant DeSimone walking ahead
of us towards the building.
Q. Okay.
A. This is when he was telling us to get ready,
that we were going to go and see, you know, what the
story was, what we could do.
He was ahead of us. He was a good maybe 20,
30 yards because he had told us to get our rollups and
our cylinders, and he started walking up.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. As that's when we started walking towards
him, towards the building, and he told us put our stuff
back on and move up, and then we did it again. I
grabbed the cylinder again.
Q. After you relocated up to the north --
A. After we relocated again.
Q. Took the stuff off, helped the chauffeur hook
up.
19
J. SULLIVAN
A. Yeah.
Q. And then what do you remember? Did you go
into the north tower?
A. No, we didn't go into the north tower.
Q. Did you go to the command post over there?
Did you see Ganci at the command post on West Street?
A. No, I didn't see Ganci.
Q. Okay.
A. I didn't see Ganci. I was -- most of the
time, I was on the -- well --
Q. Go ahead.
A. We're facing this way with the rig.
Q. Okay. That's facing --
A. Most of the time I'm on the left side of the
rig.
Q. Okay. That's facing north on West Street,
okay.
A. So I really couldn't see too much of what was
going on, because all the hydrants were on this side,
so I was running around over there.
Q. So while you were in that area, the south
tower collapsed.
A. The south tower collapsed, right.
Q. It was a tremendous cloud --
20
J. SULLIVAN
that lasted for some period of time.
A. Yes.
Q.
A. Yes.
Q. 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, something
like that. You used your mask intermittently.
A. Yes.
Q. Then that cleared.
Then what did you do after that? There was a
long period of time between the second building
collapsing?
A. Maybe 15, 20 minutes, and we were -- that's
when we were helping the firemen that were coming that
were from south of us that started moving up.
Q. Okay.
A. We were helping civilians, police officers.
Q. Okay.
A. And we were trying to get organized. We were
looking for Smitty, make sure he's all right.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Stuey.
Q. Where did they go again?
A. They went up north.
Q. They went up north because that cloud
enveloped you guys?
21
J. SULLIVAN
A. Because the cloud enveloped us.
Q. They moved up north. They were looking for
them, but at the same time you were helping civilians?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. Kind of like --
Q. Yeah.
A. You know.
Q. Okay.
A. New on the job.
Q. Okay, all right.
A. But, I mean, I tried to do the best that I
could, as far as helping out. I didn't want to -- you
know, I -- but I just remembered doing that, and I
remember also at the same time looking up again.
There was still people coming out of the
north tower, jumping, and I remember one person in
particular, if it really was a person. There was -- it
was a guy who looked like he was standing in the window
maybe, hanging on. I just remember seeing it looked
like a white shirt up there, and thinking, don't jump,
you know, they're going to get you. You know, they are
going to get up there and get you. Didn't happen, but
I don't know.
22
J. SULLIVAN
I just remember after that one came down,
there was just an order to move north, and so we moved
north. People were trying to wash up again in the
hydrants, and then there was the whole commotion by the
waterfront, gas leak, a bomb, whatever, you know. We
didn't know what was going on.
There was also a transmission at some time.
I don't remember if it was after the first tower came
down.
Q. Yeah.
A. Somebody said -- I don't know if it actually
came over the radio or something. You heard a buzz
about that there was another plane being tracked. I
don't know if it was a military plane maybe somebody
was tracking.
Q. Right.
A. Or they were talking about the plane in
Philadelphia, and they didn't know where it was
heading, but that was also -- caused a little bit of a
commotion, too, so it was a mass exodus up forward
north. People were trying to get settled, get
reorganized. They had that whole thing with the gas.
Q. Yeah.
A. They pushed us farther north again, regroup,
23
J. SULLIVAN
went to go see what we could do. We heard the
transmission 224 start water.
Q. Yeah.
A. Looked at each other, like, huh? We realized
the rig was all right, didn't get crushed, and we
wanted to go down there and man the rig.
Q. You guys never got orders to go into the
Tower 1, right?
A. Not that I'm aware of that.
Q. Yeah.
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't believe we had orders to go into
either building.
Q. Uh-huh. You didn't see command post or --
any chiefs you remember on West Street? You didn't
see -- did you see the chaplain? Did you remember
anybody?
A. The only person I remember, really remember
seeing a hundred percent --
Q. Yeah.
A. --is Terry Rivera. I drove him to probie
school every day.
Q. Okay.
24
J. SULLIVAN
A. And he was standing outside on West Street.
He looked like he was looking for somebody.
Q. Yeah.
A. And as we were driving down West Street, I
yelled out to him, and he didn't look like he heard
me. When I spoke to him later, he did hear a voice.
He didn't know it was me, though. He thought it was a
truck calling him, but he was in and out of the south
tower before it fell, and that was the only specific
person that I remember.
There was actually -- I think the Rescue 5.
There was a rescue firefighter that actually rode the
back of our rig through the tunnel to the trade
center. I wasn't even aware that he was on the back of
the rig. I didn't know until sometime after this
happened, weeks, that he came out. I didn't even
know. There was a lot of things going on, you know.
Q. Where was the staging area on the Brooklyn
side? Where did you respond to when you staged there?
A. Geez.
Q. Outside the Battery Tunnel was it?
A. It was outside the Battery Tunnel. I think
it was -- Hamilton Avenue? Let me think.
Q. You were there when the second plane hit, you
25
J. SULLIVAN
said?
A. Yeah, we were coming down -- I believe it was
Columbia Street, and I was with my back to the
lieutenant, and the lieutenant had actually said, "Look
out the window, look out the window."
We didn't see the plane yet. Looking out the
building, the smoke was already across the river.
There was papers falling on the Brooklyn side already.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw a plane
coming, and I actually said to Mike Hazel, I said,
"What is this guy going to do? Is he going to try to
fly under the smoke?"
I thought it was a regular pilot, just, you
know, that he was going to have to divert his flight
path because of this big, huge plume of smoke, and I'm
saying to myself, why isn't he flying around the
building on the windward side instead of, you know --
it looked like he was trying to duck under the smoke,
but then he banked and hit the building, and that was
that.
Q. Well --
A. I mean, actually, the guys on the other side
of the rig didn't believe me, because when this
26
J. SULLIVAN
whole -- when this all started I was upstairs, and they
said, "Hey, Joe, you know, a plane hit the World Trade
Center," and being the Johnnie in the house, I thought
they were pulling my leg. Get out of here, you know.
Came downstairs and saw it on the news.
My first thought was it was like what
happened with the Empire State building. You always
see these old, you know, newsreels or whatever.
They're talking about the B-29 or B-17 that hit it.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Oh, wow, you know, this is going to be
trouble, but I thought it was an accident. Then on the
way there, just, you know, stopped, turned into
something totally different, and I don't know.
Q. Okay. How did you guys get back to quarters
late at night when you were finally relieved?
A. Basically hitched a ride in an ambulance.
Q. Yeah.
A. We walked up north. We were trying to look
for a bus to get back. Couldn't find a bus. I don't
know what the story was, and we wound up flagging down
-- what do you call it?
Actually, it might be of some interest.
There was a person that they -- really wouldn't be.
27
J. SULLIVAN
They thought had been lost.
Q. A fireman?
A. A fireman, a lieutenant, actually, and our
lieutenant saw him on the bridge, and he passed it
along. I don't know what the story was with that, but
probably really of no relevance, but yeah, we flagged
down a volunteer ambulance.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. We were piled in. Just came home.
Q. Okay. Anything else you remember? That's
good .
A. Nothing off the top, Chief.
BATTALION CHIEF MALKIN: Okay. I thank the
firefighter for the interview, Firefighter Joseph
Sullivan.
This concludes the interview at 1508 hours.
That finishes it.
File No. 9110287
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH MEOLA
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
J. MEOLA
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The date is
December 11, 2001. The time is 2:53 p.m., and
this is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan from the
safety battalion of the Fire Department of the
City of New York.
I'm conducting an interview with Joseph Meola
in the quarters of Engine 96.
Q. Joe, just tell us what you saw on September
11.
A. On September 11, approximately -- I'd say it
was a little bit after nine, we responded on -- I was
in Engine Company 91. Responded on the second fifth
alarm to Tower 2. I went down with a Captain Montera
and a Firefighter Brian Russo.
We went in the RAC unit with the RAC unit guy
whose name is - - I forget his name. He was in the RAC
unit that day.
We left quarters, went all the way down
Second Avenue, eventually pulled onto Church Street
outside Tower No. 1, World Trade Center No. 1. On foot
we proceeded to Church and Liberty, where we tried to
get a couple of extra masks.
After not getting any extra masks off the
rigs that we saw there, there were a couple of engine
J. MEOLA
companies, maybe Engine 207, 209. It was a 200 number,
low 200 number. I don't remember. A couple of rigs
there, low 200 numbers.
We went into the quarters of 10 and 10.
After we were in the quarters for approximately 30
seconds -- it was a triage center at the time. After
we left 10 and 10, as soon as we walked outside the
door, a firefighter from an engine company 2 -- I
believe it's 216, Danny Suhr, just outside 10 and 10' s
quarters on Liberty Street, got hit by a jumper.
They were pulling him away. I believe they
got him into an ambulance, and they were yelling at us
to get away, because jumpers were jumping from the
south tower onto Liberty Street, and a few jumpers came
close to us, but no -- we met up with another company,
Engine 58, which is in our battalion, which was in the
12th battalion.
I believe they were on Liberty at the time.
I don't know if they were going in the building. I
don't remember, but they did make their way into the
building before us, not building -- not Tower 2, but
Tower 3. The Vista, Marriott.
They made it into the Vista before us after
-- later on. We met up with them on Liberty, talked
J. MEOLA
to the boss for a little while, talked to a couple of
the guys, and we were avoiding lots of material that
was falling from the building.
We went under -- I believe it's 130 Liberty
Street. The building -- I think that's the address,
actually, 130. There was a scaffolding, and we went
under the scaffolding there, and we made it to West.
We made it to West Street, down to West Street, asking
firefighters where the command post was.
They showed us that the command post was
located just outside the 2 World Financial Center in
front of a garage, a parking garage. We made our way
down that block and to the command post.
At the command post was several other
companies. I don't know what companies were there at
the time. Several other companies, ESU police, several
of the high chiefs -- Ganci, Burns, Donald Burns,
Ganci. I remember seeing those two. I remember
seeing -- I think it might have been Barbara. I'm not
a hundred percent sure. I just -- there was a lot of
chiefs at this command post.
At that time, I believe it was -- I believe
the chief was -- okay. At that time, I believe it was
Chief Burns who explained to us that we were going to
J. MEOLA
go to -- we were going to go through the Vista, the
Vista -- Marriott Vista, into 2 World Trade Center to a
subbasement with an engineer that was at that post at
the time, at the command post.
We were getting our gear together. We were
getting ready to walk across the street, and he told us
to hold up. We didn't have our forcible entry tools.
We were an engine company, didn't have any forcible
entry tools. At that time he sent our chauffeur. He
didn't send the chauffeur. I think the chauffeur went
to the rig to get the entry tools, and that was the
last I seen that chauffeur that -- until later on our
chauffeur was -- did survive, but was hurt in the first
building collapse, Tower No. 2.
He held us there approximately within three
minutes. As we are looking up at the building, what I
saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on
all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't
realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the
pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing
out .
We turned -- I turned to take a look where to
go, turned around. Several companies, myself and half
of my company, ran into a parking garage at 2 -- I
J. MEOLA
believe it ' s 2 World Financial Center. We ran into the
parking garage.
As I ran into the parking garage, I turned
around. I saw the whole side -- the side of the
building falling into the street and the cloud of dust
coming towards us.
As we got to the back of the garage, the dust
had entered the garage, and somebody had opened up the
door that was ahead of us into a stairwell. We got to
the stairwell. We got into the stairwell. We shut the
door. There was already maybe 20 firemen in there
already and officers in the stairwell for the financial
center, and a couple of more guys banged on the door.
We opened up the door. We pulled them in, got a little
contaminated, but not bad at all, and we made
ourselves -- after that we made ourselves up to the 1st
Floor of the financial center.
After that, we exited the rear of the
financial center, and what you can see was -- I believe
it's the little bay there. The North Cove Yacht Club
coming out of the back there. We went right -- you
could see the water of the yacht club. We worked our
way around 2 World Financial Center, and it was pretty
dark, dusty.
J. MEOLA
You couldn't -- your eyes were hurting. You
couldn't breathe, but you tried to head for the water.
I think I believe I ended up on North End Avenue, one
block just short of the water, right on the water
somewhere.
After on North Avenue, I believe we went down
Vesey Street -- Vesey or Murray. It's one of those
two -- back towards West Street. I was with half --
maybe half the members of the company, three of four
members of the company. The other three or four
members, at that time we were -- we did not know where
they went. We didn't know if they made it in the
garage, they were still in the garage, if they were out
on West Street. We got split up.
As we worked our way back to Vesey towards
West, we ran into several people that we knew. We
tried to get people together. We were going back
towards West and Vesey somewhere where we heard people
screaming, "The second building is coming down. The
second building is coming down."
Within ten seconds, the second building
started to drop. We ran up West. We made it up West
maybe to Barclay or past the telephone company building
up on West, past the telephone company building. We
J. MEOLA
didn't make it as far as Stuyvesant or where the other
overpass is yet. We didn't make it up that far. I
don't remember. Maybe Murray or Barclay on West.
We took cover from the second cloud, smoke
that engulfed us, and...
Q. Did you have any warning that the second
tower was coming down, via radio traffic or --
A. Radio traffic. Radio traffic on -- what you
heard on the handy-talkies was you heard conflicting
reports of guys saying hold in the first tower or --
and you heard other guys saying, "Get out. Evac the
first tower. Evac. Evac the first tower."
Also at the command post, when I was at the
command post earlier, the radio traffic that you heard
was Maydays. I didn't have a radio, but the -- several
radios were on in that vicinity of bosses or control
man or -- at the time in that -- and I believe the
radio traffic was -- you heard several Maydays coming
from -- I don't know if it's Tower 1 or Tower 2,
Channel 1 or Channel 2. I believe we were on Channel
2, and you heard Maydays on Channel 2 coming from
rescue. I believe it was rescue companies. I'm not a
hundred percent sure. My memory is just jogged on
that. You heard Maydays. You did hear Maydays,
J. MEOLA
several Maydays. "We need water. Mayday. We need
water. Mayday. We need water. We got no water," to
that effect. I don't remember exactly, just -- that
day is such a tough day.
Coming back to Vesey and West on another
communication after the first tower fell, Tower 2 fell,
Tower 1, you heard guys -- firemen, chiefs,
lieutenants, I don't know who -- yelling conflicting
reports, some saying -- most saying, "Get the hell out
of the tower. Get out of Tower 1. You know, Tower 2
fell."
I didn't realize the full Tower 2 fell until
we went back to Vesey and West. At the time when I ran
into the parking garage, I believe only half -- I
thought only half the building fell down. I did not
know the whole building came down, and when we got back
there, I realized the whole tower was down, and that's
what you were, like, the whole -- you know, you knew
the other one was imminent.
After that, we worked our way up West
Street. I got -- I believe we met up with another two
tour members of the company. I remember going to a
hydrant, going to a rig, opening up a hydrant,
everybody washing their face, their eyes out, trying to
10
J. MEOLA
get their composure back together, and in -- we wanted
to work our way down towards West and Vesey, and we got
held up by one of our bosses, which said -- which told
us to hold, to hold tight there and go back to the
command post, which was now located somewhere up by
Stuyvesant. I believe it was located by Stuyvesant
High School.
We went back there, washed up, cleaned up and
I spent, you know, a part of the day there before
returning back later on that afternoon to the site.
I believe that's about it.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Thank you, Joe.
The time now is 3:08, and this concludes the
interview.
File No. 9110288
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM REYNOLDS
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria
Reynolds
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Today's date
is December 11, 2001. The time is 1:59 p.m.
This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan from
the Safety Battalion of the Fire Department
of the City of New York. I'm conducting an
interview with William Reynolds, Firefighter
First Grade, from Engine 76, in the quarters
of Engine 76.
Q. William, just tell us the events as you
recall them on September 11th.
A. We arrived down through the West Side
Highway, I honestly don't remember what street we
had gotten off the rig, 76 Engine. Probably
somewhere in the area of Murray and West or maybe
something south of that like Vesey. At that time,
the engine went off to places unknown and the
company ended up down at 2 World Financial Center by
the command post, waiting for an assignment.
More companies arrived and so probably there
was approximately 45 people there. I don't know the
other companies that were there. I wasn't really
paying attention. I did notice at the time I saw
standing next to me Mayor Guiliani and the Police
Commissioner, Chief Ganci and Chief Ray Downey. It
Reynolds
seemed like a decent amount of time that we were
there and we as a group had become pretty distracted
with the amount of people jumping down out of the
north tower. It got to the point that we were
talking about not looking at the people. So as a
group we all turned our backs to them so we wouldn't
have to look. Then the noise from the people
hitting, it became so much that we ended up having
to turn around and look again. This went on for a
while and I remember the people that were hitting
the awning over the doorway, they were blown to
pieces. I remember saying, "I hope they don't hit
that awning, because this way I don't have to see
them blown to pieces."
After a while, and I don't know how long it
was, I was distracted by a large explosion from the
south tower and it seemed like fire was shooting out
a couple of hundred feet in each direction, then all
of a sudden the top of the tower started coming down
in a pancake. I remember my jaw dropping and just
staring at it and Richard Banaciski, one of the
firemen that was there, yelled "Run" and I turned
and I started running into the parking garage of the
Financial Center.
Reynolds
Q. Bill, just one question. The fire that
you saw, where was the fire? Like up at the upper
levels where it started collapsing?
A. It appeared somewhere below that. Maybe
twenty floors below the impact area of the plane. I
saw it as fire and when I looked at it on television
afterwards, it doesn't appear to show the fire. It
shows a rush of smoke coming out below the area of
the plane impact.
The reason why I think the cameras didn't get
that image is because they were a far distance away
and maybe I saw the bottom side where the plane was
and the smoke was up above it.
So we ran into this parking garage, the parking
garage was empty of cars and it was lit and I
remember thinking, "I hope that this building
doesn't fall down and crush the building that I'm
in." And I remember saying, "I can't die today. My
wife wouldn't accept this."
So anyway, we made it to the back of the
building and I remember looking over my shoulder as
this wall of darkness came in. Luckily it was only
just smoke. I was standing next to my Lieutenant in
the engine, Lieutenant Farrington, and I had set my
Reynolds
mask down by the ramp at the entrance and I didn't
have a mask. I said to him, "Frank, if the smoke
gets bad, you're gonna have to share your mask with
me." Then we continued back further. Frank found
an exit and a security guard, we asked the security
guard if that exits the building and he said, "Yes."
I remember saying to him, "Are you absolutely sure?"
He said, "Yes." So I said, "All right. Then get
out of here. Go. "
So all of a sudden Frank came out with a life
saving rope, which I wasn't aware he had at the
time, and he hooked it to the doorknob and we
started walking back into the area where we just ran
from and I heard people with masks on, the guys had
masks on, I could hear them in all directions. So I
followed behind Frank and I started talking out loud
saying, "If anybody can't find the way out, we have
a rope over here. He'll take you to the door."
Some voices said, "Where?" I said, "I'll keep
talking. Just come to my voice and there is a way
out over here."
Then I remember hearing somebody saying, "Oh, I
have a door here." I said, "Well, if you have a
door, then go out the door. But if anybody is lost,
Reynolds
just come over to my voice and there is a rope and
you can follow it out." So then guys started
showing up towards me. They put their hands on the
rope and that's the last I saw of them.
So after we were confident that there was no
one left in the parking garage, Frank and I followed
the rope back and we worked our way to the back
door. When we got out, we were by the North Cove
Yacht Harbor and we went out to the Hudson River.
What I had forgotten to state previous to this,
before the towers had fallen, two emergency service
cops had come up to us in wired gear, carrying uzis
and asked if we had seen any civilians. They said,
"If you see any, come get us. Don't go near the
civilians." At the time there were no civilians
around, in my eye shot.
I also remember, at that time, which I had also
forgotten to state, that in the north tower there
was a woman who may have been a security guard for
the complex and she was just walking back and forth
seeming to be oblivious of the people falling down,
jumping down right on the other side of the glass.
In hindsight, I would say she probably was in shock.
There was also a Police Officer in there. He
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just seemed to be just standing there not paying
attention to what this woman was doing. Anyway,
back to getting out to the water.
We started regrouping as a company, verified we
were present. We did not know at the time where
George Rodriguez, our chauffeur, was. There was a
lot of radio traffic. The Lieutenant was trying to
find out where George was. After a short time we
heard communication that George was fine.
I remember then seeing a civilian, the first
civilian that I saw, he was carrying a bag and I
thought, you have to watch out for the civilians and
I was thinking, maybe I should take his bag and
throw it in the water, because I didn't know what it
was. Then I thought maybe of throwing him in the
water. Then I said, "No. He's walking south. I'll
work north and get away from him."
I remember discussing with other guys that
maybe there is people around that would shoot us.
Then we went over closer to the water and there was
a barge there. I remember thinking, this might be
an oil barge and there might be a bomb on it. So we
started walking back towards West Street. Then I
was thinking, we can't go close to the buildings
Reynolds
because if more planes come. So we kind of just all
were walking around dazed and I ran into a Battalion
Chief. I don't know who he was. I said to him, I
said, "Chief, they're evacuating the other building;
right?" He said, "No."
Q. You're talking about the north tower now;
right?
A. Before the north tower fell. He said,
"No." I said, "Why not? They blew up the other
one." I thought they blew it up with a bomb.
I said, "If they blew up the one, you know
they're gonna blow up the other one." He said, "No,
they're not." I said, "Well, you gotta tell them to
evacuate it, because it's gonna fall down and you
gotta get the guys out." Because I had felt there
were hundreds of firemen who died in the first tower
and thousands of people. He said, "I'm just the
Battalion Chief. I can't order that." I remember
looking at the radio on him and I said, "You got a
fucking radio and you got a fucking mouth. Use the
fucking things. Empty this fucking building."
Again he said, "I'm just a Battalion Chief. I can't
do that."
So I walked back by the water. We were all
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basically just somewhat in visual site of each
other, us and 22 Truck, some of the guys from 22
Truck. I had known, at that time, that all of the
guys of the 22 truck had gotten out. We were
walking around very numb. I knew I was in shock,
but there was nothing I could do about it.
So eventually this other chief came back and
said, "They are evacuating this tower." I said,
"Oh, that's great." And sometime after that I
watched from the, I guess, by the Winter Garden
area, I watched the north tower fall. It was
expected so it wasn't as traumatic as the first one
to me. Then that Battalion Chief came back again
with his clip board and he said, "We need volunteers
to go back in and check the perimeter for
survivors." He emphasized that we didn't have to go
in, but if we would he would appreciate it.
So he took the names of us in 76 Engine and we
went back in. I believe it was at Vesey Street we
got up to about Washington and a Deputy Chief met us
there and said that he wanted us to go back up West
Street and regroup and we'd take it from there.
Basically while we were in that area, Washington and
Vesey, it was just everything burning on the ground
10
Reynolds
and around us and the dust, and it was no apparent
people laying around that was visible. So we walked
up West and I think we got to the area of Stuyvesant
High School and basically that's where I spent a
good amount of time. I don't think anything much
after that should be relevant, because I didn't come
back down to that area again of the World Trade
Center for many hours.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Okay. Thank
you, Bill. I appreciate your cooperation.
File No. 9110290
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER KENNETH ROGERS
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
K. ROGERS
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : December 10, 2001.
The time is 10:48 a.m. This is Battalion Chief
Dennis Kenahan of the Safety Battalion of the New
York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an
interview with Kenny Rogers, Firefighter first
from Ladder 16 in the quarters of Ladder 16.
Q. All right Kenny, please give me any
information you have regarding the events of September
11.
A. At about a quarter to nine, high rise, Engine
39 responded to the first plane crash into the World
Trade Center. We turned on the TV and we were watching
because it was newsworthy and we saw the second plane
hit and almost immediately, we were told to respond
down there. We had trouble getting out of quarters and
we were delayed a bit and 13 and 22 in the Battalion
were ahead of us, got ahead of us. I saw them pass us
on the corner. We wound up following them down,
downtown. Wound up on West Street going south and we
followed them for as far as we could. We got down
further than I thought we did, because we passed a lot
of rigs and eventually we couldn't go any further.
There we disembarked and we walked south. We
went down to West Street, to the command post, and then
K. ROGERS
we passed in front of 2 World Financial Center, by a
garage bay. We were just standing there and 13 and 22
were there, a big group were sent in ahead of us. We
should have been in their place but because we arrived
a step behind them, they went in ahead of us. We just
stood by and waited. I think we were waiting for
another truck company to fill us out. We were going to
get the next assignment. We sort of had the nod but we
didn't have the wave yet.
Watching the building, mostly the south
tower. There were people jumping, someone said we are
going to go a long way up, let's take off some of our
gear. At first I didn't, but after a while I thought
he was probably right because it was getting heavy. So
I took off some stuff and he took off some stuff. Some
other guys did.
Meanwhile we were standing there with about
five companies and we were just waiting for our
assignment and then there was an explosion in the south
tower, which according to this map, this exposure just
blew out in flames. A lot of guys left at that point.
I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One
floor under another after another and when it hit about
the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it
K. ROGERS
looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I
was there in '93.
I went down to the garage bay. Most guys
were down already. The Lieutenant had been yelling at
the command post, run, run, run. The only person I saw
come in with us was a Chief and the rest of them didn't
come in. The companies just scattered everywhere. I
think we had maybe nine people with us and there had to
be four in the beginning. All these other companies
just scattered. We didn't know where they were. They
didn't come down with us. We had two people, I think,
from other companies, different companies. One guy was
from a truck. I think the other another guy was Steve
Wright. An injured person with us, a big fat guy and I
found an ambulance cot at the bottom of that ramp.
We put him on that. We moved a truck away
from the loading bay, because it had the key in it. We
put him up on the loading dock and then we put him into
a freight elevator, but the Lieutenant said I don't
want everyone on that elevator. We don't know how well
it works. He turned out to be right. Because it
didn't -- it malfunctioned. It went down instead of up
and the guys were lucky to get off it. Steve Wright
was on that elevator. Two people were on it, the guy
K. ROGERS
from the other company, Steve Wright, and the injured
guy. The injured guy couldn't walk and he had a broken
arm.
The Lieutenant said okay, we are going to
have to carry him up the stairs. I should say that he
already had a roll call after the dust cleared. We
were missing one guy. Then he had another roll call
back by the stairwell, hoping the guy might be back by
the stairwell, but he wasn't there either.
We decided to carry this guy up the
stairwell. One of the guys from the other company said
there is a way out, out of the building, that goes out
the back. We decided we were going to go that way. We
tried to pick this guy up. The stairwell was narrow.
We couldn't all get our hands on it. The guy was very
big. Eventually we got him up several flights of
stairs. We got him out the back of the building and we
put him on a boat going over to New Jersey somewhere.
Then we went back from North Cove harbor, we
went back to the building and the second collapse
occurred when -- the three of us were in the back of
the building; myself, Oscar and Joe Petrich. There was
a really heavy draft. My helmet just flew off into
this black curtain of soot behind the building and on
K. ROGERS
the back of the building there was an overhang, so I
didn't really want to go into either one of those
places, but then I was worried about the glass flying
around inside the building. So the thing to do, I
figured, was to just stay where I was, where I had the
most places to go and see what would happen.
What happened was it subsided. I didn't have
a turnout coat at this time. I didn't get cut up so it
turned out to be the best thing to do was just to wait
and see where the best place (inaudible). That's how
it worked out for me with the second collapse.
Then we went back into the building to find
the Lieutenant. At this time, there was still lights
in the stairwell. There was a lot of water running
down the stairs, so we knew the building had some kind
of damage. I went down to a lower level, which I
hadn't been to before, below the loading bay, where we
had been originally. There was no access in the
loading bay anywhere else. It was just one level that
went down. I was hoping there was, because I was
hoping I could hide down there.
Someone located him and yelled down the
stairwell, we found him, we got him. So we went back,
we all regrouped and then we went up the ramp to go out
K. ROGERS
to the front of the building where we had come in. We
were looking for the guy we were missing. The
Lieutenant and some people were off to the left and me
and Joe Petrich went to the right of the bay to the
left and we went up there. We kind of searched quite a
bit of the building looking for people. We didn't see
anybody except one guy with a camera. I don't know
where he came from. He was taking a picture of the
World Trade Center collapse I guess. He was okay
though.
When we left the building, then we saw a
couple of other firemen starting to come in to search.
We told them we have looked around already. We knew we
were the first guys there because there was no foot
prints in the dust or anything. There was a lot of
dust in the exposure, blown in windows on that side of
the building.
After that, we went back into the building.
We went out the back. We skirted North Cove harbor and
we went to a street, which I guess was North End, and
then we went to Vesey Street and we turned right. We
ran into a guy. The Lieutenant asked him where is the
command post. The guy said I'm it. So we figured the
command post was in a lot of trouble, because we could
K. ROGERS
see them from where we had been in our staging area.
Now there didn't seem to be a command post any more.
Anyway, we found a place on Vesey, somebody
forced their way into it. It was a place called
Chevy's. We went in there. We were very happy to see
people come in. We -- like 39 Engine, we heard them
give a Mayday and they weren't responding to any radio
transmissions so we thought they might be all dead.
One of the guys came in from 39, a couple of
guys came in and started wandering in and it was just
good to see these guys were okay. We stayed there for
a while. That was pretty much the events of that day
for us.
After that, we sort of went back to the
school. We went into the school. There was another
collapse of another building, but we were too far away
to be affected by that. We went back to the rig and we
washed the rig down. It turned out that --
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Thank you Kenny.
The time now is 11:13. This concludes the
interview.
File No. 9110291
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL BRODBECK
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
M. BRODBECK 2
CHIEF KING: Today is December 10,
2001. It's 1645 hours. This is Battalion
Chief Steven King from Safety Battalion
FDNY. I'm conducting an interview with
Firefighter First Grade Michael Brodbeck
from Engine Company 210. He was working a
mutual in Ladder 1106 on September 11th as
the can man. This interview is regarding
the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Okay, Mike.
A. Right after the first plane hit the
north tower, we were dispatched and we were first
ticket. We jumped on the rig and started going
over the Brooklyn Bridge. At this time we were
still unaware it was actually a large plane until
we got around three-quarters of the way over the
Brooklyn Bridge and they confirmed it was a
commercial airliner. The 2nd Battalion aide, I
believe, was screaming on the radio about the
jumpers up and down.
I think we arrived down Cortlandt
Street, which was facing Two World Trade, and
pretty much the way you see that second plane hit
on the videotape was the way we were facing that
M. BRODBECK 3
tower .
As the second plane hit, the chauffeur,
which was Artie Riccio, did a U turn around
Century 21, which I believe is near One Liberty
Plaza over there. We came around, and I think we
came down Vesey Street, where our rig was.
We grabbed our gear, carried extra
cylinders. I had the can and had my hook. We
walked around, I think down Vesey to West Street.
We made a left and we came to the north tower.
We proceeded to wait until jumpers were down. We
went into the lobby. We arrived in the lobby,
awaiting instruction.
We awaited instruction from the chiefs.
We went with I believe it was Chief Picciotto. I
don't know if that's exactly him, but I think I
recognized him. He was on the television and
stuff.
We went up to the mezzanine, and we
took an elevator. The chief said that these
elevators were all right. We took the elevator
which I believe goes up to eight. We got off at
eight and proceeded to walk up to 23. We stopped
on 23, and then we went up to 25. Then we made
M. BRODBECK 4
our way back down.
So we were either on 23 or 21. I don't
know. I don't remember that. I think it was 23.
The lieutenant gave us instructions to make a
thorough search, pop all the doors, make sure
everybody is out of the building.
Me and the irons man went. I left my
can and I took the Halligan. He had the router
tool. We probably popped at least 10 or 15 doors
making a search.
Q. On what floor?
A. On 23 or 21. I'm still confused about
that. I believe it was 23.
At this point after we made a thorough
search, we located together via the stairwell.
At that point, unbeknownst to us, the south tower
fell. We didn't know that the south tower fell.
I didn't have a radio because I had the can. But
I heard there was a collapse in the north tower
between the 68th and 70th floor.
When we heard the evacuation, we
started our way down. At this point we were
still unaware that the other tower went down. We
were in the stairwell. We all regrouped at the
M. BRODBECK 5
stairwell before the tower went down. When it
went down, like everybody else says, it was like
an earthquake. The building went six feet to the
right, six feet to the left.
We started to make our way down, a very
slow process. Once the maydays kept coming over,
guys were just stopping in the stairwell. At
approximately the 18th floor, the other members
of Ladder 110 started carrying a woman down in a
chair. I was walking down with another woman I
believe from 18 to like 12, and she went with two
other members. I forget which engine company.
They walked her down.
I picked up another civilian at 10. I
walked her down. She was with two civilians. I
walked her down. She was hyperventilating. She
thought she was having a heart attack. So I put
my mask on her, because the dust from the other
tower was starting to come up into the other
building. This was probably around like the
sixth floor where the dust started getting bad.
I gave her my mask from like ten down because she
was just trying to catch her breath.
We went down -- this was the B
M. BRODBECK 6
stairwell. We got down to the lobby. I was a
little bit ahead of 110 while they were carrying
the other woman down. When I got down to the
lobby, I asked the woman if she was okay. The
two civilians told me that they would take her.
She went with the two civilians .
I went and caught up with Ladder 110
and walked out of the north tower, which I
believe was at least 25 minutes just to get down
from up there. We walked out into the street
under the overpass, the northern walkway on West
Street .
We got out to one of the rigs and put
our gear down. Lieutenant Wayne Mera -- at this
point we still didn't know the other tower went
down. The north tower is ahead of the south
tower. So as we walked out, we're still pretty
much clueless about the other tower going down.
We made our way under that overpass.
We stopped there. Lieutenant Mera said he didn't
like this, where we were standing. We started to
walk north on West Street. We probably got maybe
50 yards, they were like two red lights, and we
stopped again. We put all our equipment down.
M. BRODBECK 7
One guy took his mask off.
At that point the north tower
collapsed. From the time we walked out of the
tower to this point had to be less than five
minutes, maybe like three minutes by the time --
it happened very quickly.
At that point we all pretty much
scattered and ran. I ran north on West Street.
I put my mask on. The vibra-alert was going off.
I had no air left because I gave it to that woman
on the walk down.
The dust ball came down and hit us. I
ran in complete darkness and wound up running
face first into the building before the Verizon
building on Vesey. I was actually trying to
break through the glass.
At the time I dislocated my shoulder.
I was running. I dislocated my shoulder. I was
trying to break through the glass with my left
arm. Then the door flew open. I happened to be
banging on the door. The door swung open and
knocked me on my butt.
Two firemen from 305 Engine dragged me
in there, which I believe is Six World Trade in
M. BRODBECK 8
the customs building right there. It was either
that or the telephone building. I'm not too
sure. Two firemen dragged me in there.
At that point I was trying to get in
touch with my battalion to find out if those guys
lived or whatever. We all met up at what I
believe was West Street and Murray, that bridge
that goes over, that other one. Near like
Stuyvesant High School, we met up there.
That was it pretty much, from collapse
purposes. I don't know if you want me to go on.
Q. Did you see anybody there, any specific
individuals at any point?
A. That ain't here no more? I walked out
with someone from 65 Engine that I grew up with.
I haven't seen him in two years. We happened to
hit the lobby doors going out.
On the way up we were with 21 Engine.
A guy from 21, I played football with, he was
with me going up. When we were coming out, they
were ahead of us. I remember seeing Billy Burke,
the captain who got killed. I think he went
left, because they all went right with us. I
assume he might have gone over to where the
M. BRODBECK 9
command post was or whatever.
That's like the overview. When we
first got to the front of the north tower, I was
watching people jump. We were actually waiting
to see if anybody was coming out of the building
on the West Street side to make sure we weren't
hit.
Q. When you were on the 23rd floor doing a
search, what were the conditions?
A. Fine. Nothing up there.
Q. No smoke? No sign of water flowing
anywhere?
A. No, not at all.
Q. The stairwell dry?
A. The stairwell was dry. No water.
Q. Do you remember what stairwell you were
in?
A. I believe B.
Q. B?
A. We came down B. From what I
understand, it was the only one that was not
obstructed. It was a good thing we were going
down B. When we were going up, there didn't seem
to be that many firemen. I believe we were
M. BRODBECK 10
probably one of the first 15 units on the scene.
We got there pretty quick.
I happened to see that thing on CNN
from 7 Engine. They were on 21. I didn't see
them. I'm pretty sure it was 23 that we were on.
There's a lot of doors. We popped a ton of
doors, looking for people.
To be honest with you, I remember
looking out the window and seeing that command
post on West Street, thinking it wasn't a good
idea to be there. I've been on six years. When
I looked down, it didn't seem like a real bright
place to have one. Little things like that stuck
out in my mind. When I looked out on that, I
felt uncomfortable about that.
We were so in the dark about the other
tower going down, we walked out of the north
tower and I looked south and I just saw the
Marriott Hotel, the corner of it. I remember
saying to myself the Marriott took a beating from
all the debris falling. You just saw the corner
of it from that angle coming back.
So up until the point where the north
tower went down, we didn't --
M. BRODBECK 11
Q. You didn't notice that tower came down
at all?
A. We didn't know that at all.
Q. You didn't feel that or hear that?
A. Oh, no, we felt it. We were in the
north tower, and we were in the stairwell. When
that tower went down, our tower went six feet to
the right, six feet to the left, and we felt the
debris falling, but it felt like an earthquake.
I've never been in a big collapse. I thought --
Q. You didn't know the tower came down?
A. No. What I heard over the radio was
that it was a collapse from the 68th through 70th
floors. I thought that's what was -- that much
of a rumble and everything else, you know. Until
afterwards, like I said, I dislocated my
shoulder .
So after the collapse, after I left
that building and I got back with 110, a doctor
from Hazollah came over and put me in a sling. I
stood on West Street for like an hour and a half
fighting with the lieutenant not to get on the
ambulance .
Then the F-16 flew overhead, I
M. BRODBECK 12
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^J They
me to go. I didn't want to go, but I was useless
anyway after that. I was taken to St. Vincent's
Hospital. I was taken to Chelsea Piers first.
They had triage, and they popped my shoulder back
in. I was taken to St. Vincent's.
I didn't get back to Brooklyn until
6:00 or 7:00. I was taken to Metrotech. I was
with John Feehan. They brought me back to the
division, I was with him, and they brought us
back to Metrotech. From Metrotech I just walked
over to 110 and went to sleep.
That's pretty much it.
Q. Okay, Mike.
CHIEF KING: The time is 1700 hours,
and this interview is concluded
File No. 9110292
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER STANLEY TROJANOWSKI
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
S. TROJANOWSKI 2
CHIEF MALKIN: Today's date is December
10th. It's 1813 hours this is Battalion
Chief Malkin, Safety Battalion. I'm
conducting an interview with firefighter
Stanley Trojanowski, first grade, Engine
238. We're at the quarters of 238. There's
nobody else present in the room. This
interview is related to the events of
September 11th, and what follows is the
interview.
Q. You start out from in quarters. When
did you get the run?
A. We received the run a little after
9:00. We responded on the fifth alarm to the
initial building that was hit by the airplane.
We made our way down Barclay Street. We tried to
make a left-hand turn on West Side Highway or
West Street, but it was all congested with
traffic. So we left the rig on West Street.
Actually I stayed with the rig on West, between
Barclay and Vesey on West.
The guys responded to the command post
which is at Liberty Street and West, and I stayed
with the rig. I hooked up, got a little bit of
S. TROJANOWSKI 3
pressure, just enough for an inch and
three-quarter, which wasn't even sufficient
because it read zero from the hydrant pressure on
the gauge. I had a little bit of water. So I
tried to be prepared there.
That's it. Later on to see what was
going on, I listened to the radio. I saw some
people jumping eventually. First I thought it
was debris from the airplane that hit or maybe
from the building itself, or birds. Once the
people got closer, I could see they were actual
human beings.
After the collapse of number Two World
Trade Center, which I actually thought was a bomb
that went off because the north tower was
blocking my view, debris and everything started
falling, people were running. I hid underneath
the scaffolding on Barclay; I'm pretty much sure
it was Barclay and West.
Things cleared up a little. I started
up the stair and tried to wash off anyone that
was still trying to escape from the collapse and
tried to help as many people as I could, this and
that.
S. TROJANOWSKI 4
I tried to contact the company. I was
pretty much sure I made contact. Someone
responded. I remember hearing "Engine 238," but
it sort of seemed like a response to my calling
them. I heard everyone was supposedly all right,
which wasn't true, which might not even been a
response to my calls on the handy talky.
The north tower came down, and I got
hit with some debris. I remember getting banged
up to the divider by the rig which was in the
street. I made my way underneath the scaffolding
again and just tried to outlast the collapse,
which I thought was just another bomb going off.
I'm trying to remember of anyone who's
still missing or was missing that I had seen. I
can't recall.
Q. Did your unit come back, your guys come
back to the rig at some time?
A. After the second collapse I radioed
again to see if they're okay. I had a response,
or all I caught was part of a response. I
thought it was them again. So I started looking
around for them. I went to the north overpass.
The response supposedly mentioned they
S. TROJANOWSKI 5
were at the north overpass. I looked around
underneath the overpass, because it was partially
collapsed on the south side, rigs sticking out on
the north side, burning, this and that. No one
there.
I was trying to put out some fires. I
used about 20 extinguishers. I tried to put out
car fires there, and some of the rigs burning. I
tried to keep it from escalating even worse just
in case we had people trapped in there still
alive so they don't burn to death.
The debris on Vesey between Vesey and
number Seven World Trade Center, three and a half
was the seven, and a couple of civilians helped
me stretch that. We had a little bit of water in
the three and a half that was stretched from
another company north of me on West Street. The
tower ladder was in front of Six World Trade
Center, I guess, because it was just north of the
pedestrian bridge. We couldn't put it out. It
was five or six stories high, the debris, I'm
going to say.
I helped tried to get a couple of
firemen out of the debris and managed to work
S. TROJANOWSKI 6
with other firemen to get one fireman out. He
was in cardiac arrest, bleeding. About five
surgeons were dropped off in the area that came
over to me, asking where they could respond,
where they could help, this and that.
I knew the command post on Liberty
Street was annihilated or whatever you want to
call it. One of them went with the ambulance
with an unconscious fireman to the hospital. The
other one -- I had no clue where the command post
was because there's no way of getting through on
the radio.
Q. Right.
A. There were all the important messages,
maydays and everything. Unless you have a mayday
I guess you don't want to interrupt important
transmissions. So I just kept on looking for our
guys, which took a while for me to find, a couple
hours. I went all around.
Q. You walked around looking for them?
A. Yeah. I went and actually met up with
some of the guys from our firehouse on Church
Street. The last transmission I heard was north
of the pedestrian overpass, the north overpass.
S. TROJANOWSKI 7
I walked around there for a while, asked the guys
that I knew. They said they had seen two of our
guys, so I knew at least two of the guys were
alive. I just kept on looking. When we met up,
we came back to West Street where my rig was just
to see what I could do.
There were a lot of things in between
that come to my mind now. I helped them stretch
a line from the rig north of me to the tower
ladder. Everyone was doing what they could.
Later on we helped a marine company, because we
had no supply of water at all on the west side.
So we helped the marine company with three and a
half inch hose. We got them off other rigs. We
supplied a pumper, I guess it would be, on North
End Avenue.
Q. Stretched a line from the marine
company onto North End Avenue?
A. North End Avenue. We managed to get a
pumper that was still working. We drove it over
there. A chauffeur from that company stayed with
that. Actually he wasn't the chauffeur that
responded with the company, but he was from that
company and he was a chauffeur.
S. TROJANOWSKI 8
So he manned that rig while we helped
to stretch a three and a half from that pumper to
the other pumper which was closer to West. I was
like in-line pumping to get some supply of water.
Q. After the tower two went down, where
were you after the first one went down?
A. I was there the whole time.
Q. Still up by Barclay Street?
A. Yeah, at Barclay. That's where our rig
was, on West between Vesey and Barclay; actually
closer to Barclay, close to the corner.
Q. Right.
A. Because the hydrant I had was around
the corner on Barclay.
Q. Did you ever see the command post where
Ganci was or the chaplain or anything?
A. No.
Q. After the first building went down, did
you see companies, where they were, any
particular firemen or companies, where they were
working or anything like that? No, you were
remote; right? At least a block away?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay.
S. TROJANOWSKI 9
A. There were a lot of cops in the area.
Q. Yeah.
A. Scattering.
Q. How did you wrap it up? Total debris,
you were hooked up over here, you stretched all
these lines? You worked there into the night,
would you say? You worked there all day?
A. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, I was there
until Wednesday. I found our officer just south
of the pedestrian north overpass.
Q. Late in the day when you found him?
A. Yeah. Actually someone else mentioned
they found him late in the day. It was dark
already.
Q. Did 238 guys get together all at once
or in dribs and drabs they got together or did
you find each other at the scene?
A. Yeah, we were looking for each other.
Actually everybody was looking for each other,
from what I heard.
Q. How late did you stay at the scene?
A. Until Wednesday. I got banged around a
little when the second one came down, the north
one. There was debris flying this and there.
S. TROJANOWSKI 10
I really don't like to talk about it
much.
CHIEF MALKIN: This concludes the
interview with fireman Trojanowski, Engine
238. I thank him for the interview. The
time is now 1826 hours.
File No. 9110293
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DAVID KELNHOFER
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
D. KELNHOFER
BATTALION CHIEF KING: Today's date is
December 10th, 2001. The time is 1815 hours and this
is Battalion Chief Stephen King, Safety Battalion,
FDNY. I am conducting an interview with Firefighter
David Kelnhofer from Engine 221, control man on
September 11th, 2001. This interview is regarding the
events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. Okay, Dave. You can start whenever you
want .
A. Basically, we came to work that morning.
Everything was normal. We saw on the TV that the first
tower was hit. We normally go into Manhattan, so we
started to get ready, figuring that we were going to
get sent there. Then we saw the second plane had hit,
and right after we saw that on the TV, we got the
ticket over the computer to go to Manhattan. So we
grabbed our stuff. Pauley Warhola, who was getting off
the night before, had jumped on our rig as an extra
man, as a fifth man.
We went down. We were told to go over the
Manhattan Bridge. We went over the Manhattan Bridge.
We ended up parking the rig on Broadway close to Dey
Street, I believe, looking at the map here, and we left
the rig with the chauffeur there. Then we walked down
D. KELNHOFER
Dey Street, I believe, or Fulton, down Vesey. We were
told to report to the command center by the World
Financial Center on the opposite side of the Trade
Center. We walked completely around and ended up right
by the World Financial Center, I believe it was the
first one, right in front of the north tower.
We stopped there. We took our gear off to
take a break while the captain went up to get an
assignment from the command post. He went up to the
command post, got an assignment, came back. We were
supposed to go into the south tower, I believe. Just
as we started to put our gear back on, the first tower
collapsed .
We ran down the loading ramp of the building,
through the loading ramp, up the opposite side of the
building, up the stairway. We tried to get out the
stairway in the rear of the building. We were trapped
there for a while and then finally it cleared a little
bit. We made our way out of the building, across the
courtyard and down towards the piers, through the
marina and down towards the piers.
Okay. Here is the building here, yes, the
second World Financial Center. That's the building
there. We made it through there. We ended up on the
D. KELNHOFER
piers with a group of, I guess, like 100 firemen. We
stopped there for a minute. Then we regrouped. We got
all our men together because we were separated a little
bit.
We started to make our way back down to the
basement to recover some gear. We figured we'd go help
in the rescue operation. Before we could do that, the
second building came down. We ended up going back
towards the pier, towards the water. We stood there
for a little while, regrouped again.
We left there, went back to the building,
made our way into that basement with a search rope,
recovered our gear, came back out, and then we were
told to go on West Street to the new command post. We
stood at West Street for a while for another
assignment. That's basically it.
Q. You didn't really see any guys, individuals
you remember who might be missing?
A. No, nothing like that. We went in front of
the command post that everybody got killed at, but we
were waiting. The captain went up to the command post
to get the assignment. We kind of waited in the back.
So I really didn't see anybody actually at the command
post. We were on the other side of the street.
D. KELNHOFER
We had picked another guy up. I don't know
whether he was lost or came in on his own. I don't
remember his name. He stayed with us most of the time,
until the collapse, he went to the pier, and then he
ended up regrouping with somebody else, I don't know
whether his own company or what.
Q. Do you know his company?
A. No. I'm not sure.
Q. Sounds like a guy I talked to the other night
from either 211 or 119.
A. No. I would have remembered that. It
definitely wasn't a company around the battalion here
because I would have remembered that. But he was kind
of lost, so he hooked up with us. The captain said
"follow me" just so at least someone had a record of
him being with somebody. The captain probably would
remember. But after the first one collapsed and we ran
through the building, we kind of lost him.
Q. Okay.
A. That's about it. We ended up staying at West
Street for a while. They didn't have an assignment for
us, so we worked our way back to Broadway. We found
our rig. We didn't find our chauffeur. We found out
later the chauffeur was hurt in the collapse, that he
D. KELNHOFER
was taken in an ambulance. So we had gotten back on
our rig and we ended up doing a four-pumper relay.
Q. Who was your chauffeur?
A. Warren Monroe. He was hurt. He'll be out on
three-quarters. He's still in therapy.
We ended up getting our pumper back, getting
it operational, and we were doing a four-pumper relay
to a tower ladder and a hand line into the Trade
Center. They were doing a rescue operation and a tower
ladder operation. So we were working both of those. I
was working I think it was Squad 44 rig. I'm pretty
sure that's what it was. I was working that rig. One
of our chauffeurs that came afterwards took our rig,
and then there were two other pumpers, 290 and somebody
else down the road. Because the hydrants were so far
away, we had four pumpers feeding the tower ladder and
the rescue hand line.
We stayed there until about 8:00, 9:00
o'clock in the morning, and then we worked our way back
to the firehouse. That's about it.
BATTALION CHIEF KING: All right, Dave.
Thank you. The time is 1821 hours and this interview
is concluded.
File No. 9110294
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH RAE
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
J. RAE
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 10th, 2001. The time is 2:30 p.m. I am
Battalion Chief Robert Burns, Safety Battalion, New
York City Fire Department. I am conducting an
interview with - -
FIREFIGHTER RAE: Joseph Rae, Engine 255.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: This is in regards to
the events of September 11th, 2001.
Q. If you could tell us in your own words, Joe,
what happened.
A. Myself, Steve Altini from 24 Engine and Craig
Monahan from 5 Truck took Craig's truck into the Trade
Center. We came through the Battery Tunnel. We drove
north on West to about I'd say 90 West is the building
where we pulled over and there's green scaffolding
there. We pulled over. We got out of the pickup.
Steve Altini went to 10 and 10 to get gear. Me and
Craig Monahan got out of the rig. We put our gear on
and we started walking north on West Street.
As we kept approaching towards the Trade
Center, there were all the rigs parked left and right.
We went under the first pedestrian bridge, which would
be about Liberty Street. We knew they were riding
heavy, the engines and trucks, because we were looking
J. RAE
for masks and tools and there were no masks. Even the
four-man engines didn't have any masks in them, and I
knew they were riding heavy because it was change of
tours.
When we got about, I would say, the Vista
Hotel, right there, we saw the 1st Battalion parked
there and we saw I think it was 10 Truck. I'm not too
sure. There was a truck parked there. We kept
walking. We got to about, I would say, probably around
the second pedestrian bridge, over there, where we
encountered Rescue 1, the 2nd Battalion, we saw 5
Truck, we saw 3 Truck, I think 1 Engine was there, too,
and in front of that was 18 Engine, which was towards
the south. That's where we found our masks. We took
the masks out of 18 Engine.
We put the masks on. We started walking
north to just about the second footbridge, which would
be 6 World Trade, and all of a sudden we heard the
explosion and the building started to come down and I
ran up --
Q. Which tower?
A. 2 World Trade Center started to collapse. We
ran and I dove under a rig and I lost sight of Craig
Monahan. I don't know where he went. I dove under a
J. RAE
rig. I'm not sure what the number was, but I dove
under a rig. It came down. I got back up. After
about ten minutes, it cleared. There was a hose line
in the street. We were hosing each other off.
I met up with Craig Monahan again and he said
come on, come on, let's take 5 Truck's rig because
there's guys on 6 World Trade, on the Customs Building,
there's a little balcony there. So we moved the
tiller. He told me turn the wheel all the way to the
right. We backed the rig up. We put the rig up. We
put the ladder up. There was a couple of Port
Authority cops, a couple of firemen, I'm not too sure
from where.
We got up the pedestal, and then the second
one came down, and once it started to come down, we
ran. I ran up north towards about Vesey Street where
12 Truck was parked on the corner of Vesey on, it would
be the east side of the street. I dove under there and
then the Trade Center, the second one came down. That
would be 1 World Trade came down. We climbed out of
there and we started walking back to see where all the
collapses were.
What I forgot to mention was, when we were
walking north before the first collapse, I actually saw
J. RAE
that command post. I saw Chief Ganci. There were I'd
say about maybe eight people there. I saw Chief
Ganci. I saw Chief Feehan. The two of them were
there. They were actually moving the command post back
a little ways because they were moving it with maybe
his driver or something. But they were all standing
there and they were trying to push the thing back.
After the first collapse, I didn't see the
command post after that. After the second one
collapsed, I crawled out of 12 Truck and we started
back to see if we could find anybody because it was
only me - - I lost sight of Craig Monahan after the
second collapse. It was only me and two or three Port
Authority cops and a civilian. That was all that was
left that I saw from where I was standing, which would
be the second footbridge by 6 World Trade, north.
There was nobody else standing after that.
So then we went back. We got through, and I
met with Ray Reilly, who was a Lieutenant in 248, and
we were trying to get up onto 6 World Trade because
there was a guy on the top floor of 6 World Trade
hanging out the window. So I tried to move 12 Truck.
I couldn't get 12 Truck started. It wouldn't move.
Then all of a sudden the chauffeur came and moved it,
J. RAE
but they still couldn't get it. They still couldn't
get him.
So we took the portable ladder off of 24
Engine's rig, put it up there, and we started up, where
I met with my captain and a couple of guys from 255 up
there, and we took a window and we went inside of 6
World Trade Center. They were carrying out the guy
from Rescue 1. I don't know his name. But they were
carrying him out. We helped them carry him out, and
then we stretched a hand line into 6 World Trade Center
to about the 4th floor to knock down some fire. Then
we went back down and we were knocking all the car
fires down and we were just looking for people.
We scuttled back towards what would be like
where the Winter Garden is, over there, and that's
where I met up with the rest of the guys from 255 and
Ladder 157, and we started digging and we found Chief
Ganci and Chief Feehan there. Then after that we just
kept just digging for people, you know, for the
brothers.
Actually, it all happened so fast. They say
it took like 40 minutes between or whatever. Still it
was just very fast the way everything went. Then I was
there until 9:00, 9:30 at night. I got there about,
J. RAE
I'd say, right before the first collapse, enough time
for me to get out of the truck, walk north with my gear
on, right under the footbridge, right to about here, to
about right in front of the 6 World Financial Center,
when No. 2 World Trade Center came down. That was it.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Okay. Thanks, Joe.
That concludes our interview. It's 2:37 p.m.
File No. 9110295
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER CHRISTOPHER FENYO
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
C. FENYO
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Today's date is
December 11, 2001. The time is 12:31. This is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety Battalion
of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with Christopher Fenyo of
Engine 35 in the quarters of Engine 35.
Q. Chris, just tell us what you saw on September
11th.
A. This is Firefighter 6th Grade Christopher
Fenyo. I live at North Moore and Greenwich Street. On
the morning of September 11, I had dropped my
girlfriend off at the subway at Chambers and walked
home, and at a quarter to 9:00 I was in the elevator of
my building when the first plane hit. I didn't hear
anything. We face north.
When I got into the apartment, I heard FD
going down the West Side Highway. I pretty much
figured the only ones that go down the West Side
Highway are probably rescue, so I took a look out the
window to see if they were going to a job nearby. I
saw a few hundred people standing in Greenwich Street
pointing up, so I figured there was a job and I'd go
buff it out. I still had no idea.
So I took the elevator down. I walked out
C. FENYO
onto Greenwich Street and I looked up and saw the north
tower, this is about maybe five to 9:00. I ran back
into my apartment, up ten flights of stairs, grabbed my
backup gear and started running down Greenwich Street.
At this point there were about ten floors of fire and
my first thought was I have no idea how we're going to
put this out. I got about three blocks running flat
out and I saw a guy on a motorcycle and we both had the
same idea. He told me to jump on. He drove me down to
Vesey and West.
At the corner of Vesey and West, I went up to
the first Battalion Chief I saw and asked him what I
should do. He said to stand fast at the manpower pool
and he pointed to a spot about 100 feet away from him
where there were some men gathering.
As rigs came down the West Side Highway, I
kept going up to them asking if there was an extra
helmet. I finally got some luck with Engine 39. They
were already in the building, so I was with the
chauffeur, Arthur, for that time being.
There was an explosion at the top of the
Trade Center and a piece of Trade Center flew across
the West Side Highway and hit the Financial Center, and
Arthur went to hook up with another chauffeur to the
C. FENYO
Financial Center. His rig was parked in the southbound
lanes of the West Side Highway just north of the north
pedestrian bridge.
At this point a Battalion Chief looked at me,
saw 39 on my helmet and told me to move my rig in front
of 1 World Trade Center to supply water to the
standpipe. I said yes, sir, but I didn't want to move
the rig. Even though I wasn't 39, I probably could
have moved the rig. I back-pedaled, looked around the
rig to see Arthur. As I was coming back to the front
of the rig, the Battalion Chief, I guess he got a
little impatient. He jumped in the rig and moved it
himself over to in front of 1 World Trade Center.
About 30 seconds later, Arthur came back and
looked at me and said where the hell is the rig? I
said it's across the street. At that point the rig was
essentially in a hailstorm of glass. There were bodies
hitting the canopy of the Marriott at that point, I
guess, right between 1 and 3 World Trade, or actually
that was the canopy of 1 World Trade. He saw the
situation, saw we weren't going to be able to hook up
without getting hurt, so we ran across the West Side
Highway, jumped in the rig, and we pulled it back
across the highway to the southbound side just north of
C. FENYO
the pedestrian bridge, as it was before, only now the
rig was facing north.
When I stepped off the rig, probably about 20
after, 25 after 9:00, I ran into George Reese of 80
Engine, who was also off duty. He was responding into
his second job when he came up from the subway. He had
gone to the quarters at 10 and 10 and gotten gear. At
that point I told Arthur that I had met someone from my
company and that I was going to go with him. He said
be safe, and I went off with George Reese to the
command post on the loading dock between 3 and 2 World
Financial Center, just underneath the Winter Garden,
where Chief Ganci had his command post at the top of
the ramp.
We were there for about ten minutes. George
went off to talk to the Chiefs to find out what we
could do. I was standing there alone. There were
several companies down the ramp behind me. One of them
I believe was 76 Engine, there was 211 Engine, about
50, 60 men, various states of dress.
About a couple minutes after George came back
to me is when the south tower from our perspective
exploded from about midway up the building. We all
turned and ran into the garage. At that point I banked
C. FENYO
down to the floor. We were trapped for a little while
in there. We went off to the right. There's a big,
big loading dock underneath there. You could probably
fit three or four tractor-trailers with the doors
closed .
We ran off into a dead end, realized it. At
that point the smoke had gotten down to the floor and
someone, who I found out later was the engine officer
from 76 Engine, had put down a search rope. A lot of
us got out through the staircase by that rope. At that
point we discovered that we were inside a fire
staircase with all metal doors, metal frames, opening
outward, and none of us had tools. There were a lot of
calls down to go get tools. But at some point there
was a facilities guy there from the Financial Center
who had a key. He let us out on the water side of 2
World Financial in between 2 and the Winter Garden.
At that point there was a lot of confusion.
There was heavy ash in the air and on the ground. We
made our way over towards the river. At that point
there were a lot of guys cut up, some broken bones, a
lot of civilians getting on the ferries. We helped
some of the civilians get on the ferries.
At that point a debate began to rage because
C. FENYO
the perception was that the building looked like it had
been taken out with charges. We had really no concept
of the damage on the east side of 2 World Trade Center
at that point, and at that point many people had felt
that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade,
and officers were gathering companies together and the
officers were debating whether or not to go immediately
back in or to see what was going to happen with 1 World
Trade at that point. The debate ended pretty quickly
because 1 World Trade came down.
At that point we ran up through Battery Park,
through the north part of Battery Park, where I lost
George because I stopped to pick up a civilian who had
sprained her ankle and wasn't able to run. At that
point, after carrying her up to Chambers Street and the
water, her friends assisted her, I believe, onto a
ferry at that point. But we were out of the danger of
the collapse of 1 World Trade.
I made my way around to Stuyvesant High
School. I still wasn't able to find George. I learned
later on that he was all right. He had hooked up with
another company and they had gone back and started
working on Vesey near the Customs Building. I made my
way with 211 Engine and a couple of other folks. We
C. FENYO
essentially just picked gear from here and there,
picked up masks, picked up gloves, picked up bottles,
tools, and we worked the rest of the night. That's
pretty much it.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Okay. The time now
is 12:39 and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110296
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER FRANK MACCHIA
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The time is 10:53
a.m., and this is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan,
safety battalion of the Fire Department of the
City of New York.
I'm conducting an interview with Frank
Macchia, firefighter 1st, from Ladder 43 in the
quarters of Ladder 43.
Q. Frank, just explain to us what you saw on
September 11.
A. After arriving on the Westside Highway, what
I know to be the collapse, after the collapse of the
south tower, Ladder 43 and myself were in a position
approximately between north of Vesey Street on West
Street when Tower No. 1 collapsed.
At that point, once we had donned our masks
and retreated to Barclay Street to allow some dust to
settle, to make sure that we weren't caught in any
debris, and then advanced out to the corner of West
Street and Vesey Street.
At that point, myself, Firefighter Suden,
Firefighter Regan were ordered by the chief to place
into operation a pumper to extinguish Fire Department
vehicles and to make searches of those vehicles. We
did so and operated that line for approximately 30 to
Macchia
45 minutes, simultaneously searching any rigs that we
extinguished, mostly Fire Department vehicles.
Twelve truck was not on fire. We searched
that rig, Haz-Mat, both Haz-Mat rigs, 132 truck and a
few rigs that were underneath the pedestrian bridge
south of Vesey Street.
Q. Were all the searches negative?
A. All the searches were negative except for a
Police Department vehicle where we extricated a Police
Department -- I'm guessing a plainclothes detective or
plainclothes officer.
At that point, after approximately 45
minutes, myself and Firefighter Long following
Lieutenant Rohan, John Colon and Firefighter
Frederickson up a ladder onto the mezzanine of World
Trade Center No. 6, U.S. Customs building.
We transported stretchers, a power saw and a
few Stokes baskets up that ladder by orders of a
chief -- at this time, I don't recall his name -- and
proceeded to search in that building, and those
searches were positive.
We did find a battalion chief and his aide
just inside World Trade Center No. 6. At that point,
myself and Firefighter Long, along with -- there were a
Macchia
couple of other firemen up there, a chief. We operated
with him, searched into the World Trade Center No. 6
building.
Q. The members you found, were they alive or --
A. Dead. Two -- I don't know the names. A
chief that we had pulled, that was alive, who was --
looked -- appeared to be disoriented, not -- at the
time didn't seem like he was injured in any major way.
We removed him from World Trade Center No. 6,
took him to the north end of that mezzanine, where
someone had got the bucket of 12 truck into operation,
and we put him in the bucket, and he was removed to the
street. I recall the name Rappe. I'm not sure if it
was him, though. Maybe it's just the chief that I saw
there that day, but from the back of his coat that's
one of the names I remember.
We then moved into World Trade Center No. 6
with the chief. I believe that Firefighter Long can
recall what battalion we were with. We operated with
him for about a half an hour, searching in there.
We then left that building on our own back
down onto the West Street side, helping extricate and
operate more hose lines and doing other searches of
rigs for the time frame, I can't recall, and then made
Macchia
our way underneath that pedestrian bridge, the north
bridge, underneath that north bridge after we had
spent, I guess, between operating the line and
searching that World Trade Center No. 6, has to have
been almost two hours gone by now, listening, hearing
the Ladder 6 Maydays throughout, went back down via the
12 truck basket down to the street underneath the foot
bridge and tried to make our way up to where the rest
of our members were operating in that separate
stairwell.
And that's what we did the entire day.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : Thanks a lot,
Frank, for all your help.
The time now is 10:58, and this concludes the
interview.
File No. 9110297
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER DEAN NELIGAN
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Today's date is
December 11, 2001. The time is 12:07 p.m. I'm
Chief Robert Burns, New York City Fire Department,
conducting an interview with --
FIREFIGHTER NELIGAN: Firefighter Dean
Neligan, Engine 262.
Q. This is in regards to the events of September
11, 2001.
If you would, Dean, just tell us in your own
words what happened that day.
A. Well, about at 8:45 that morning, the first
plane hit the trade center, which came on the TV. We
were all in the kitchen. We being located in Long
Island City, we knew we'd be going over to Manhattan,
whether to the trade center or relocation, so we more
or less got ready to go.
I believe at 9:02 we got a ticket in, which
sent us to the entrance to the Midtown Tunnel, so we
proceeded to the Midtown Tunnel.
In the process of going to the Midtown
Tunnel, the second plane hit, which we were not aware
of. There was no communication on the rig of a second
plane hitting the second tower.
We actually were at our staging area for what
Neligan
seemed to be 30 to 40 minutes waiting for them to close
down the Midtown Tunnel and the Westside Highway,
apparently set up a route for us to proceed through.
We were probably about a dozen rigs, all from the Long
Island City area.
As we started going through -- as we actually
staged there, then we heard word that the Pentagon was
hit, and there was a second plane that hit the second
tower .
As we started through the tunnel, is
apparently when the first tower came down, because we
heard a chauffeur in his rig saying there's been a
collapse. He was stuck in his rig. He didn't say it
was the tower that came down. I assumed it was some
sort of facade that came down, not realizing it was the
whole tower.
We then proceeded to go through the tunnel,
made our way to the Westside Highway, one rig after the
other. We parked on the Westside Highway. We
proceeded down the Westside Highway towards the towers,
not knowing the first tower was down.
We made it to Vesey and West and more or less
paused there looking for some sort of direction,
because there was no command post. There was nobody
Neligan
more or less giving directions on where to go, what to
do.
At that point, I looked up. I saw the second
tower. I said to one of the brothers with me, that
it's so smoky, you can't even see the first tower, not
even knowing the first tower was down to the ground.
From our angle, the second tower was closest
to us, so between the tower being behind that one and
the smoke, I just assumed you couldn't see it from the
smoke.
As we were staged at Vesey and West is when
the second tower began to come down. At that point, I
thought it was just the top of the building coming
down, the antenna. Didn't make a move initially. Then
everybody started making a move for safety. I
proceeded to follow.
I was able to duck in behind an ESU unit,
which was about 20 or 30 yards back down the Westside
Highway, got behind that, was involved in the coverage
and the darkness, which seemed about five to six, seven
minutes, and then the area cleared.
There was a parking lot on the right of us
that was about 20 cars on fire. We stretched a line
off of 220 's rig, which was parked right there and
Neligan
proceeded to operate trying to put out the car fires
because of the tremendous amount of black smoke that
was coming back towards us at the Westside Highway.
We operated there for about an hour,
hour-and-a-half with whatever little water we could get
and no tools.
At that point, we then proceeded back to our
rig, which was back at the walkway further east behind
us, and then more or less we just stayed there for many
hours waiting for instructions.
Q. When you were there, when the second tower
came down, did you see any rigs that you could identify
or any people?
A. Not offhand. There were rigs parked one
after the other along the Westside Highway, and where I
ducked in was near this ESL) unit, police vehicle, and
then 220' s rig happened to be there that we could
stretch a line off.
First I found my officer. Then we proceeded
to find two other members from our unit, which were a
little further back, and then we started operating at
the -- in the lot with the car fires.
BATTALION CHIEF BURNS: Thanks, Dean. That
concludes our interview. It's 2:12 p.m.
File No. 9110298
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER WILLIAM VAN NAME
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : The date is December
11, 2001. The time is 11:57, and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan from the safety
battalion of the Fire Department of the City of
New York.
I'm conducting an interview with William
VanName, firefighter 1st, from Engine 35, and the
interview is taking place in the quarters of
Engine 35.
Q. William, please tell us the events of
September 11 as you recall them.
A. On September 11, we were at educational day
at Randall's Island. The entire company was out of
service.
We were notified that a plane hit the World
Trade Center, to stand by, and then the instructor came
in and said another plane had hit the tower. We are on
total recall. Go back to your company and man your
rigs.
So we did. We got back to 35 engine's
quarters. We were told to wait there for six engines
to arrive. We were the staging area for six engines,
some from the Bronx and some from north Manhattan.
Five engines showed. We were waiting for 83 engine,
VanName
which didn't show up. They were on their way down West
Street, halfway down at 50 something street. The
dispatcher returned them to our quarters when they
arrived here.
Then we all went in a convoy down West Street
to the World Trade Center. Driving down West Street,
we observed the towers, both on fire. Both were still
standing. By the time we arrived down the end of West
Street, around Chambers or so, one tower had
collapsed. I believe it was --
Q. The south tower?
A. -- the south tower. We gave a 1084. We got
up to -- we were on West Street between Vesey and
Murray, where the rig was positioned. We took all our
gear. Everybody that was on the rig -- there was five
men on the rig and two on the back step at that time.
We manned all our gear. We went down. We
started walking down West Street towards the World
Trade Center. When we got to between Vesey and the
pedestrian overpass, the north pedestrian overpass, we
heard a fantastic rumble. Everybody looked up, and as
we observed it, the second tower started to collapse.
The time frame of that, I'm not sure. It was
probably between 10:10 and 10:30, somewhere around
VanName
there.
As we observed the tower falling, most people
stood there and watched for a couple of seconds, and
then as the cloud of smoke and the debris started
coming at us, we all dropped our equipment and gear and
we ran for shelter down West Street north on West
Street.
We ended up in the high school on the west
side. We stayed there for a few moments until we could
get our company together and the lieutenant can make
sure he had the roll call and everybody was present.
We started heading down towards World Trade
Center again, and we had assisted and helped with EMS
and helped the brothers -- police, firemen,
civilians -- to the ambulances and take them out of the
immediate area.
At that time we were separated. Our company
was separated. I ended up staying with Firefighter Jim
Powers. He was overcome by the smoke cloud and
debris. He went down. He became light-headed, and he
fainted. I got EMS to assist there. They treated him,
and they felt he should go to the hospital.
I was with him at that time. We got on a
bus. We went to St. Vincent's. He was admitted. We
VanName
stayed there for two hours under observation. He was
released. We immediately came back to where our rig
was positioned on West Street, and we found our
company, and after that the lieutenant said we were on
standby.
I was notified that our two chiefs from the
12th Battalion were missing, and -- could you stop it
for a minute, please?
(Recess taken. )
A. Also while we were responding down West
Street to the World Trade Center, we heard a Mayday
given by, I believe, an engine company chauffeur that
was trapped in the collapse inside the rig.
As we arrived at the staging area, we also
saw the dust cloud and the debris that had already been
from the first tower on the ground. That's it.
BATTALION CHIEF KENAHAN : All right, thank
you very much. That's fine.
File No. 9110300
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER STEVEN KLEE
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
S. KLEE 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: The date is December
10, 2001, and the time is 3:15 p.m. This
is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the
Safety Battalion of the Fire Department of
the City of New York. I'm conducting an
interview with Steven Klee, firefighter
first from Ladder 22. We're in the quarters
of Engine 76 to conduct this interview.
Q. Steve, please tell me what you remember
from September 11th.
A. I remember responding. I was the
chauffeur of 22. I got to the scene. I pulled
in. I drove down Columbus Avenue down to 24th,
then to West Side Highway. West Side Highway we
took all the way down. I remember pulling in
behind 25 Truck. Then I remember 2 Truck pulling
in behind us.
We got off the rig, grabbed our
equipment, gear, cylinders, whatever, and started
walking towards the towers, initially walked past
the command post and then walked back to the
command post, stood at the command post I believe
which was across from one for about maybe five
minutes. Then the lieutenant said, "All right,
S. KLEE 3
we ' re going in. "
We walked down West Street on I guess
it would be the -- that would be West; right?
Yeah, west side of West Street down to I guess
the south pedestrian bridge, walked underneath
that across and shimmied our way -- or not
shimmied. How would I describe that? Ran into
the hotel.
In the hotel we were told we were going
to get our orders from there. The lieutenant
said take a blow, just relax, take our stuff off.
We took our stuff off. Probably about maybe
another five minutes after that, we got geared up
and he said, "All right, we're going." I didn't
ask the officer exactly where we were going. We
just started walking.
We headed towards tower one or into the
hotel into tower one, passed Deputy Chief Galvin
on the way in. He was with somebody else. I
don't really remember the chiefs. He just told
us we were going to the 75th floor.
We got into tower one, made the turn
into tower one started heading I guess either
towards the elevators or the escalator. That's
S. KLEE 4
when we heard a rumbling. I dove for a wall and
it got pitch-black.
I just basically rode it out until
after the sound and -- how would you describe
that one? After the (inaudible) stopped. I
don't know what the heck happened then, how best
to describe it. I got up. I thought I was by
myself, and I then just started calling out for
the rest of the company.
I found the four other guys. We got
out towards the entrance of one onto West Street.
We couldn't find the lieutenant, so I told the
four of them if they go outside I'll go back in
and look for the lieutenant.
Four of the guys went out. I came back
in to look for the lieutenant. I was searching
for him. I was trying to get him on the radio.
I couldn't get anybody on the radio. I kept
going back and forth. I was grabbing civilians,
bringing them to the front, going back in,
looking around, bringing civilians back out.
I was bringing some civilians out, and
that's when debris started falling and hitting
the ground. I brought them back in, gave an
S. KLEE 5
urgent, saying I need help in getting the
civilians out, because I couldn't go out the
hotel. There was no hotel entrance anymore. I
couldn't go out through the food mall or whatever
because that was completely caved in.
I was giving an urgent. Somebody
answered me. I told them what it was, and then
they didn't answer, they didn't come back. All
of a sudden I went back to the main entrance and
I saw a bunch of firemen. So I figured they came
in to help me, but it wasn't that. They were
coming from upstairs.
I asked did they see my lieutenant.
They said no. That company I remember was
actually 7 Engine, I believe. They were coming
down. I think they were missing their control
man at the time.
I searched for the lieutenant, looked
under the debris and everything, couldn't find
him. I said he must be out because I should have
been able to see him.
That's when I got out. I believe I
remember seeing Feehan. I believe he was by the
entrance of one. I walked across the street to a
S. KLEE 6
command post, which when I got there, there
really was nobody there anymore.
I remember talking to a four-star
chief, telling him what happened. All he kept
telling me was we're going north, we're going
north. I said, "I can't find my lieutenant. I'm
22 chauffeur." I said, "I can't find my
lieutenant." He said, "We're going north. I'm
sending everybody north." So I said all right.
That's when I left and I started
walking up the street, trying to find the
rendezvous or whatever what the heck would you
call it? What do you call it?
Q. The staging area?
A. Staging area. I went up there. I
spoke to a couple of chiefs up on West Side
Highway and West Street. They said, yeah, guys
are going to the water.
So I went back down to Vesey, tried to
get to the water. I guess I got behind the
American Express building. That's when one came
down. After everything calmed down from that and
I finally made it to the water, talked to the
field comm., told him who I was missing. Our can
S. KLEE 7
man showed up there. So then I only had to find
four more guys.
I asked them have you seen the
lieutenant? I went to West Street. I walked up.
That's basically where I saw the rest of our guys
there.
Q. Before the second tower came down, did
you notice anything, a sign that it might be
coming down or anything like that or did you hear
anybody give any warning on the radios or
anything like that?
A. No, I was just trying to find out --
no, there was no -- it was still dusty out there,
and you really couldn't see. I didn't even
realize that two came down. I thought another
bomb or a plane hit the building. That's what I
thought it was. When I got out, debris and paper
was all over. Like I said, I didn't realize what
happened until after one came down and I put
together what happened when we were in one lobby.
Q. Okay. That's it.
A. I think so, yeah. Quick and easy.
Q. Thank you, Steve. I appreciate your
cooperation.
S. KLEE
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 3:24
p.m., and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110301
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER KEVIN McGOVERN
Interview Date: December 11, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
K. McGOVERN 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time is 10:24 a.m.,
and this is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan
of the New York City department Safety
Battalion. I'm conducting an interview with
Kevin McGovern, firefighter first from
Engine 53, in the quarters of Engine 53.
Q. Kevin, please tell us the events of
September 11th as you remember them.
A. I was working my second day tour. We
were in the kitchen, and we saw the first plane,
watching TV. Of course the news came on that a
plane had hit one of the towers of the World
Trade Center. So we were watching TV, monitoring
the radio.
Then there was another explosion in the
other tower. That's when we got called down
there. It was the second fifth alarm when the
second plane hit, and we got sent down to the
Trade Center. We were assigned to tower two,
which was the south tower of the World Trade
Center .
We got down there pretty fast. It must
have taken only ten minutes to get there. Once
we got to the West Side Highway, it was kind of
K. McGOVERN 3
empty and we just flew right down there. We
parked the rig on West Street approximately
between Murray and Vesey.
Then we walked down to where the
command post was set up, which was in front of an
underground garage entrance in front of Two World
Financial Center. So we reported in to the
command post on West Street and kind of just
waited there, awaiting our orders.
We were just standing there watching
people jump out of the -- we were opposite the
north tower, so we just kind of stood there.
There was a lot of jumpers coming from the north
tower on the West Street side.
I really don't know how long we were
there, maybe ten minutes. To be honest with you,
I couldn't even recall what other companies were
around us, but there were several other companies
with us, mostly engine companies.
With all the jumpers and stuff, I just
put my head down and stopped watching the
jumpers. I waited there, waiting to see what
they were going to do with us .
A chief came over to my lieutenant,
K. McGOVERN 4
Lieutenant Dorritie, and told us to move some
rigs to make a lane for ambulances coming south
on West Street. He wanted us to go back north on
West Street, back towards where we had our rigs,
and just ensure that there was a lane for
ambulances to get down West Street.
So he said leave all our equipment
there at the command post, which we did. We left
our hoses, took our masks off, and walked north
on West Street. We only had needed to move I
think two rigs, because they were blocking the
lane. It really didn't take long. It took maybe
15 minutes to take care of that. We made the
lane for the ambulances, and then we headed back
towards the command post.
We were walking south on West Street
back to the command post. Like I said, I had my
head down again. All of a sudden I heard like a
tremendous thunder. I looked up, and all of a
sudden people were just running towards me. I
looked up and, sure enough, the south tower was
collapsing. It was like a big, huge wave coming
at us .
At this point we were right before the
K. McGOVERN 5
command post. I was only a few yards in front of
the command post, but there was a fence between
the area for the Winter Garden atrium and where
the command post was. Lieutenant Dorritie was in
front of me and two firefighters, Firefighter
Cachia and Firefighter Giaconelli, were in front
of me. Two other firefighters from my company
were behind me, Firefighter Catalano and
Firefighter Schofield. They were two new guys on
rotation in the firehouse.
When I saw the thing collapse and
people running towards me, I just turned and
looked for the quickest place to get cover.
Initially I thought of ducking under the
pedestrian bridge that goes over West Street on
the north side, but I decided that wasn't going
to be safe.
So I just ran right into the Winter
Garden atrium. A lot of people were running in
that way. So I kind of just ran in there. I ran
inside and realized it was an atrium, so I had to
get out of there in case some debris had come
through the atrium.
So we went through the atrium and made
K. McGOVERN 6
a right, once we got inside which there was -- so
now we're heading north within this building.
There was an exit that led out to Vesey Street.
This is where I ran into Firefighter Catalano,
who is one of the guys that was walking behind
me, and I was asking him did he see Firefighter
Schofield. He said no. I was worried about
Schof ield.
We came out onto Vesey Street, and we
were walking around Vesey Street. A bunch of
other firemen, a bunch of civilians had gone the
same route, through the Winter Garden and made a
right and north onto Vesey Street.
So there were a bunch of ambulances
lined up on Vesey Street, and me and Mike were
walking west of Vesey, away from the cloud on
West Street, and we noticed Schofield in one of
the ambulances .
We found out how he was doing. He was
hyperventilating. He was taking oxygen inside
the ambulance. We stayed with him for a while,
made sure he was all right. He said he was
feeling better after he took some oxygen. He
said he was going to come with us. So he got out
K. McGOVERN 7
of the ambulance and walked with us west on
Vesey .
We came out onto North End Avenue.
Here I ran into another fireman that was covered
in soot, and we stayed with him. He was choking
on I guess the dust and stuff. He almost sounded
like a cat with a hairball. He was just trying
to get the stuff out, clear his own throat. I
stayed with him and was encouraging him to cough.
He was able to get some air, he was saying, but
he was trying to get this stuff out of his
throat .
We stayed with him, and we led him to
an ambulance on North End Avenue. I told him to
try and get some oxygen. We kind of left him
with an ambulance on North End Avenue.
There was another ambulance there.
There was an EMT inside the ambulance, and she
was really kind of freaking out. She was very
emotional. We stayed with her, calmed her down,
made sure she got some oxygen.
There was a big cloud on West Street,
so we decided to go north on North End Avenue and
go up a block and around. We were going to walk
K. McGOVERN 8
back down West Street, approach it from the
north. So we went up North End Avenue and made a
right on Murray street.
I was with the two rotation guys, Mike
Catalano and Dan Schofield. They were pretty
shook up. Dan was still kind of breathing heavy
and hyperventilating a little bit. He said he
needed to call his wife. He called his wife. We
ended up near Stuyvesant High School. I think
that's on Murray Street. So he made a call.
I said, "Okay, I'm going to go back
down." They were kind of hesitant, so I said,
"Look, you guys stay up here at Stuyvesant High
School. I'm going to head back down."
I started walking south on West Street
again. I probably got just before Vesey Street
when the north tower collapsed. Again, I just
turned around and looked to see a place where I
could get some cover. There was a big open lot
between Murray and Vesey, so that was all wide
open .
So I ran north back up towards
Stuyvesant High School. Basically I got to the
high school just as the cloud hit. I went inside
K. McGOVERN 9
the high school. I was in there only about a
minute, kind of let the cloud pass, gave it about
a minute.
I didn't run into the two firemen,
Catalano and Schofield, again. I assumed they
were safe inside the high school, Stuyvesant High
School, because that's where I had left them,
right outside. I just assumed they got some
cover inside, which they did, I found out later.
So I stayed in the high school about a
minute, let the cloud pass, the initial cloud. I
left the high school. I went back onto West
Street, started walking south again. There was a
big cloud out there. Everything was covered in
dust. I just headed south on West Street again
through all this debris, past all the rigs. I
just made my way south again back towards the
site, back towards the Trade Center.
There wasn't really a lot of people
around. It was kind of eerie. It was almost
like a ghost town with the cloud and everything.
I guess I got to Vesey Street and I ran into some
other guys. I ran into a guy from 43 Truck. He
said that he had seen my lieutenant on Vesey,
K. McGOVERN 10
towards the water, towards North End Avenue.
So I walked up there. I wanted to let
my officer know. We had tried earlier to get
through on the radio to notify my officer that we
were all together, me and the two other guys, and
that we were safe up on North End Avenue, but we
couldn't get through.
Like I said, one of the guys from 43
Truck said my officer was out on Vesey Street.
Somebody had to move that rig, which was actually
a pretty good move. From where the rig was on
West Street, somebody had taken it down Vesey all
the way down to the water.
Q. That was your rig?
A. Yeah, our rig.
By the time I got down there, I looked
for my officer, who I ended up running into, to
let him know we were all safe. I let him know
the two other guys were up by Stuyvesant High
School, they were okay. So we regrouped by where
our rig was, by the water on Vesey Street.
I think it was the marine unit,
Firefighter, that had pulled up to a pier there
and stretched a line to feed our rig with water.
K. McGOVERN 11
So we regrouped there.
I think at that point -- a lot of this
is murky. Sometimes I think I don't know what
came first. I think at that point we went up
North End Avenue. We went up to Stuyvesant High
School to hook up with the two other guys.
That's basically where a staging area was
starting to form up there, on West Street.
So myself, the lieutenant, the two
other guys that the lieutenant was with, I had
found out that they had ran through the garage
where the command post was. Since we were
walking behind them, our quickest route was to
run through the Winter Garden. So we got
separated that way.
Like I said, there was this fence there
between the Winter Garden and where the garage
was. They were south of the fence, so they ran
through the garage. We were north of the fence,
so our best route was through the Winter Garden.
That's how we got separated.
As I said, I regrouped with the
lieutenant and the two guys that ran through the
garage on Vesey near where our rig was. We
K. McGOVERN 12
walked up to Stuyvesant, hooked up with the other
guys, stayed at the staging area for a while.
Basically we just worked our way south
again on West Street. I think we went back to
the rig once and then we walked over to the site
and started a search at that point.
We were searching around the debris
field that ended up on West Street opposite the
north tower. We were searching around in there.
At that time Seven World Trade Center was burning
and was in danger of collapsing. After a while
the lieutenant said, "Let's move, let's get out
of here, let's take a break."
Actually I think at that point just as
we were leaving, guys -- I don't know who it was.
I guess it was a chief was saying clear the area,
because they were worried about number Seven
World Trade Center coming down and burying guys
who were digging.
So we basically went back to the rig,
because they were clearing that area out. It
took about three hours for Seven World Trade
Center to actually come down. So we were off to
the side.
K. McGOVERN 13
There was a whole bunch of firemen on
Vesey Street, and that's where we were, on Vesey,
just waiting to go back in and start searching
again. But that didn't come for a few hours. It
didn't come until after Seven World Trade Center
had come down.
Then we went back, did a little more
searching, and then we ended up taking up. I
think we took up around 9, 9:30 at night and
caught a ride back to the firehouse.
Q. Did you hear any maydays before the
collapse or right after the collapse, either
collapse?
A. Not really. I didn't have a radio.
Like I said, everything was kind of foggy. It
was kind of a weird scene. So there may have
been maydays . Probably not having a radio I
didn't take notice of them. I didn't hear any
radio traffic at all, basically.
Q. Is there anything else?
A. No, that's it.
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 10:42,
and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110302
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD BOERI
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
R. BOERI 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time is 2:05 p.m.,
and this is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan
of the Safety Battalion of the Fire
Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with Richard Boeri
of Engine 44.
Q. Richard, just explain in your own words
what happened on September 11th.
A. I was minimum manning that day,
overtime. At 9:08 the call came in. I was
control man. We ended up going out of quarters,
going down Second Avenue down to about 59th
Street, across the West Side Highway and down.
I believe we parked the rig
approximately, I think it was Murray Street or
Barclay and West, and we proceeded to go down to
the command post, which was I believe across from
One World Trade Center or the north tower.
I think we were there for about five
minutes. They said, "Put your gear down. You're
going to walk up about 80 flights of stairs, "
because the elevators were out. So we put our
masks down, rollups and everything.
I think we saw like 18 people jump.
R. BOERI 3
Then one of the officers there said, "Turn
around, concentrate on who you can save. You
can't save those people anymore." I don't recall
who that was.
There was a chaplain behind us. It
wasn't Father Judge, but one of the guys knew
him. He said a little prayer for us.
So I went through the guys from there.
I saw the chief's aide, and I talked to him for a
little bit. It had to be about 20 minutes later
when they sent us down to approximately Cedar
Street and West Street. They were there, two or
three rigs blocking the West Side Highway coming
from the south. So we were sent with 53 Engine
to move those rigs out of the way.
Myself, my whole company, Matt Shannon,
Bobby Reeg, the covering officer, and Eddie
Kennedy proceeded to walk down. Looking over, I
saw 65 Engine hooked up to the hotel, I believe,
or the south tower. I don't remember which one
because there's a high pressure pump.
The officer saw there were several
small fires at the foot of the pedestrian bridge
right there at Liberty and West. So our initial
R. BOERI 4
thing was myself and Eddie Kennedy would move the
rig away from West Street to let the companies
come up from the south. Also they told us to
bring ambulances up Washington Street, which is
on the south side of the south tower there.
Bobby Reeg, the nozzle man, he was
checking rigs up the West Side Highway for an
extinguisher for the car fire along with Matt
Shannon. So they were looking I guess -- right
in front of the Vista Hotel.
We had our backs to the tower and under
that pedestrian bridge walking south, myself,
Eddie Kennedy and the officer, when you heard the
crackling. You looked up and you saw the one
floor explode on itself and the top start to
slide.
At that point Eddie just told me to
run, and we just dropped everything and ran south
towards Albany Street. Now, we ran I guess on
the east side of West Side Highway -- we ran
across to -- the east side, we ran to the west
side of that highway, down towards Albany.
At the southwest corner there were a
few parked cars. I saw Eddie Kennedy lose his
R. BOERI 5
helmet and dive under a car. I saw a building --
I believe it's at the corner of West and
Albany -- and I was going to try to go for the
building.
Once all the debris and everything
caught up, I was pushed over a four foot fence.
The next thing, I woke up, I was spitting
everything out of my mouth, and it was just
black, silent.
When I came to, I heard a civilian
yelling on my left. So I found my helmet next to
me, picked myself up. I found the civilian, who
was over by the building. Make it Park Place, I
guess? I can't tell what building that is.
Anyway, it's right on Albany and West Street.
So I walked the civilian back. I
walked back to where my company was. Where I
last knew, Albany and West, where I found the
officer and Eddie Kennedy. I passed the civilian
off to someone else who was there.
I was with Eddie Kennedy and the
officer when Dr. Kelly showed up, her and another
guy I believe from 4 Truck, I want to say. I'm
not sure. I had cut my head. My whole face was
R. BOERI 6
full of blood. I was talking to them. I was
okay.
We were trying to radio Matt Shannon,
who was our backup man. He had the radio. He
said he knew where Bobby Reeg was, because Matt
was just going for the river up by the marina
there.
Dr. Kelly said, "Come with me. We'll
wash you up. You're hurt." So I told the
officer I'm going with him, which we proceeded to
go to Albany Street, I guess, half a block to a
parking garage, which is in the Hudson View West,
in the Hudson Tower here.
In there they had a guy on the back
board, Kevin Shea, who I guess he was hurt before
the collapse because there was something -- they
had him on a back board and everything.
I was there when they went to try to
find a gurney or stretcher to get him to an
ambulance, because they told us the whole
southern section you couldn't get to an ambulance
or anything.
I was there for a while with him, when
you heard the rumbling again. That's when the
R. BOERI 7
north tower came down. We stayed in the garage.
There was another chief there. He covered Kevin
Shea when all the dust came into the whole
garage, all the debris and everything, all the
dust didn't get into his spot because he was all
strapped down. He had a dislocated hip or
something. He kept repeating the same questions
about 15 times over and over.
We knew we had to get him out. We got
to 4 Truck on I guess it was West End Avenue over
here one block west of West Side Highway. They
got an ambulance, which we threw him in the
ambulance and we drove straight toward West
Street.
(Interruption. )
A. So we got the ambulance, and we drove
straight west on Albany Street all the way to the
river. We broke through the chain fence on the
esplanade there where the police boat pulled up.
At that point is where we proceeded to hand Kevin
over on the back board over the side railing and
into a police boat.
A few minutes later I ended up going on
a police boat also across to Jersey to Hoboken,
R. BOERI 8
where I was there until about 11:00 at night
because they wouldn't let us back. While we were
there, we made phone calls back and found out
where everybody was from our point of view.
In general that's it.
Q. Thank you very much, Rich.
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 2:12,
and this concludes the interview.
File No. 911030?
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER GEORGE KOZLOWSKI
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason
G. KOZLOWSKI
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: The time is 1620
hours. This is Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of
the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with GEORGE KOZLOWSKI of
Ladder 20. He is assigned to Ladder 20 of the New
York City Fire Department. The interview is
taking place in the quarters of Ladder 20 in the
office's quarters regarding the events of
September 11, 2001.
Q. Fireman KOZLOWSKI, tell me what happened on
September 11.
A. We just got relieved after 0900, Fireman
Escofrery and myself. We saw the plane coming over,
sort of over quarters and then the initial crash. We
heard the initial crash. 20 truck and squad 18 took
off right away and Kenny and I, we were just standing
there and Timmy Haskell with squad was there also and
he was going down there, so they grabbed -- can I say
the bread truck, their other rig.
Kenny and I got redressed and Timmy Haskell,
same thing and we took off in their hazmat spare rig,
the hazmat rig. Approaching there we could see the
tower, where the plane hit. We pulled up alongside
squad 18 's rig and just before 20 's rig, at that point
G. KOZLOWSKI
we were looking up and we saw the people jumping
already. We thought it was parts of the building
coming down, but it was jumpers. We must have seen,
while we were standing outside at that point -- because
we were looking on our rig for any tool that we could
find. We didn't have radios. I think Timmy Haskell
had a radio, but I will get back to that.
So we got a couple of tools, I think two axes
and a halogen, but no -- there was no radio around. As
we went inside on the West Street side of the north
tower into the lobby, I can't remember the companies
really. There was a bunch of companies standing fast.
I just can't picture it right now. We were right by
the command post. I did see Ganci, Chief Hayden,
Feehan, Von Essen, who else, the aide, who was it,
Kevin Wa, I think it was Kevin Wa, the aide.
We first initially, we wanted to tell
somebody that we were there, so they knew we were
there. We tried to get Chief Hayden because he knew
us. We knew us while he was at Division 1 anyway. I
think Kenny got -- did tell him.
At that point we were just standing fast. We
didn't want to go roam off far away because we didn't
have a radio. At that point we heard more jumpers
G. KOZLOWSKI
hitting the outside awning. We thought it was stuff,
but man, the sound of those bodies crashing down was
unbelievable. I mean a giant thump. We did see bodies
that got pulled out of the elevators because all the
elevators fell. Then Kenny and I just thought well,
let's just walk in the main lobby there and maybe try
and pry open and see if anybody is left in the elevator
itself .
We did a quick walk around in that section,
but there were only a couple that were closed. We
could wedge it open a little and take a look. There
were no other bodies . There was about three or four
bodies that were pulled from the elevator and they were
covered up already.
We went back closer to the command post and
at that point there were more jumpers and there were
body parts flying into the lobby. At that point, they
started to move the command post, because all that shit
was just flying in, I mean, you know, chunks.
Kenny and I -- I forgot who asked us -- it
was one of the officers. At that point there were a
lot of people coming down from the lobby, the loge
area, and they were asking us to tell the people to
keep moving, move, move. So he goes why don't you take
G. KOZLOWSKI
a walk up to the third floor, the third floor through
the B stairwell. He goes people are -- you know how
narrow those stairwells are. As big as that building
is .
There was a lot of water coming down from the
stairs. Lot of people were panicking, so we kept
pushing them out, pushed them to that second floor
lobby and then it was getting pretty bad out there,
because I couldn't tell you what side, I guess the jet
fuel and everything that was flying down was really
kicking up on the outside. We let them know too, and
we were afraid, because those big plate windows, we
wanted to get the people away from there in case it
blew and that's eventually what happened. Thank god
Kenny and I, we closed off that door so nobody could go
down there any more.
At that point, we were -- I can't remember
how long we were on that third floor pushing the people
through. That's when we felt a big giant tremble, like
a mini earthquake. That was the south tower
collapsing. We didn't see it but we really felt it.
All the lights shut down, the emergency lights on the
stairwell and everything. People were starting to
really panic.
G. KOZLOWSKI
Then there was another small explosion on
that second floor. I guess it was that plate windows,
everything going. That's when we encountered 5
Engine. They were coming down from the fourth floor or
whatever. I didn't see their officer. I might have,
but it was dark at that point too, and then -- let's
see -- there were a couple of other probies there. I
think they were probies, because you know, you look,
but it was mostly 5 Engine there working on -- to find
another -- not a stairwell, an exit to go out.
Luckily a person was coming down. I don't
know from what floor but on the third floor encountered
us. He says no, I know another exit down this way.
Well. That was the only other door that we could get
out. It was lucky, because a lot of the other people
-- because it was pitch black now. So Kenny -- well
we all lined up. It was not like a long walk, but a
good enough walk to get to the other exit. It was good
that guy found it, because I think we would have got
stuck. That he knew about it, because I don't think we
would have found it.
Okay, so then we made a line and we pushed
the people not to go through that third floor door and
we just told the people which way to go. Then we had
G. KOZLOWSKI
flashlights. Other people had flashlights so everyone
made it and we kept pushing people through, go, go,
move, move. There was one guy, we thought he was
having a heart attack. We got him up and we put him on
a chair. He was pretty heavy set. So I think it was
one of the guys from 5 Engine that said keep going. I
will stay here with him and try to get him out.
So we just kept going, moved more through,
went downstairs, got through -- it wasn't the main
lobby where the command post was. We made it through
that way. Got downstairs, and there was like a -- it
was like a giant courtyard or something and somebody
out there was a black Battalion Chief. I forgot his
name. Another guy that says no, no, keep going through
here. I don't even know what building it was that was
adjacent to the Trade Center right there. It was
closer to the West Street side.
At that point, there were more jumpers in
that courtyard and more -- there was quite a bit more
debris from the building, falling from the upper
floors. So we set up like a -- one guy stayed where
the people were coming through and another guy ran over
to the -- where that other building was or something.
Couple of us would look to see if anything is
G. KOZLOWSKI
falling and then tell the people run, run, run and then
wait to see if anything else fell. Luckily not too
many things fell. It was good hooking up like that to
make sure.
At that point, all the people that were with
us or whatever, there were quite a few. That was it.
So at that point, I think the Chief says hang out here
in case some other people come back. I know there was
a proby with us, Escofrery, and another guy. The Chief
took off. We heard like a lot of trembling and
everything. So we better get out of here. This
doesn't look good. There is no more people coming.
So we started walking the same way the Chief
went, and he was at the other end. He said the same
thing. He said we better get our asses out of here.
This doesn't look good at all. As we were walking, we
heard -- we thought it was another plane coming. It
was like a big shhhhh. A thousand times louder than
that. It sounded like a missile coming and we just
started booking. We took off like bats out of hell.
We made it around the corner and that's when
the shit hit the fan right then and there. We heard
that loud and then ba boom. I just -- it was like an
earthquake or whatever. A giant, giant explosion.
G. KOZLOWSKI
Kenny made it and those other guys made it around this
bend here. I was like the last guy and I just turned
around and I just sort of ffffffff, I just did a fetal
position. I crawled down and held -- thank god -- that
helmet saved my life: I just held onto it and the
impact, I closed my eyes -- just the impact, I could
just feel shit hitting me, flying.
I think something fell on my back that
protected me from some of the other stuff that fell.
Luckily a couple of things hit my helmet. Then it was
just that impact and I was in a fetal position, just
holding my helmet, shaking. Then this big gust came
and I just went flying, maybe 30, 40 feet. Tumbling.
I got up, got on my hands and knees because
all of the white shit was all over me. I just kept
crawling. My ears were like deaf, you know, when you
hear a giant firecracker or something. I went
crawling, spitting that shit out, and I couldn't see
anything because everything was white. I just kept
crawling. I tried to yell out Kenny, Kenny Escofrery,
but everything was so muffled. I didn't know what else
was going to happen. I just tried to fucking get out
of there.
Then I saw flashing lights. I said oh, man,
10
G. KOZLOWSKI
at least there is something there. At this point I
didn't even know -- I thought it was like a part of
the building collapsing. I got up to the car and it
was like a Suburban and the lights were still on and it
was running. I got in there, opened the door, there
was nobody in there. At first I was just going to get
in the Suburban and wait it off or something, wait
until it cleared off. I said I'm getting my ass out of
here. I don't know what's going to happen.
So I kept crawling and I saw another flashing
light and I was yelling out Kenny, Kenny, hey, anybody
out there, help. That's when I heard Kenny. He
already was walking back to see where I was. We met
up. He goes let's go, let's go. Because we were dying
of thirst now too from swallowing that shit.
Then it started clearing up a little. We
were on the West Street side. That was it. We just
kept walking and just walking, trying to find some
water. We saw some other trucks there. I forgot what
companies. They weren't affected with it, but it was
mostly everything was covered white.
We made it to the street. There was a cop
there with an open hydrant, washing everybody down.
She was very nice. She said kneel down, because we
11
G. KOZLOWSKI
were covered in shit. We made it. We were on West
Street. Got some water. We were just sitting there
wanting to catch our breath. We were looking at this
shit and saying, "oh, my god," I wonder where' s our
guys?
Took a little rest there and we started
walking back to ask people if they saw 20 or 55 or
squad. That's initially A truck or something. A truck
made it out, because they know our guys. That's why.
At this point we saw -- oh, god -- we didn't catch up
with anybody that saw 20.
We waited there. We said let's hold off.
Maybe some other companies will come out and we will
ask them. Maybe -- like the first, second, third due
companies that would know anybody if they did see 20,
because initially they probably all showed up
together. They might have been on the same floor or
they passed them on the stairwell.
Hung out there for quite sometime. Just
hoping somebody saw them or -- so at this point Kenny
and I said we can't -- let's walk back to A truck.
Maybe they know something. We got back to A truck and
-- were they back already? There were a bunch of guys
there already that got called for a recall. There were
12
G. KOZLOWSKI
some officers that retired that came down to help out.
Lieutenant Woods, remember Woodsy? He was there. |
Then a couple of the guys from A truck came
back and they didn't -- they said they did see them on
the stairwell. After that they lost them, before,
because they were making their way down from the 30th
floor or something. They saw 20 on the 35th floor or
something. 28th floor or something. They weren't
sure. I'm trying to --
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Okay.
Q. I have a couple of maybe clarifying points.
Nothing -- when you said you responded with the red
truck and you parked near squad 18 and Ladder 20, do
you know where that location was?
A. The Vesey Street. Do you know where that --
Q. Where the north walkway was?
A. Yes.
Q. That aide you said was Wah, Chris Wah, the
Division 1 aide?
A. Yes , yes .
Q. When you said you met 5 Engine, originally
you said you went to the B staircase, was that there
13
G. KOZLOWSKI
where 5 was, the B staircase?
A. Yes , yes .
Q. When you were escorting people out of the
stairway from the third floor to the second floor that
was also the B staircase?
A. Uh-huh. It might have been -- no, that was
the B. That was the B.
Q. No Fire Department personnel came out, all
civilians, other than 5 Engine?
A. What I saw. Yes. Because they were behind
us. We had to keep walking in front and these guys
would stay by the door.
Q. No other Fire Department units passed you?
A. No.
Q. That you know of?
A. Yes. Because there were a lot of probies
there, so I didn't know what companies.
Q. When this guy directed you to the other exit
down the hallway, that exit wasn't marked or anything,
was it, like C exit?
A. It was pitch dark.
Q. It was basically a mezzanine type exit, a
little wider staircase maybe?
A. No, I wouldn't say it was wider.
14
G. KOZLOWSKI
Q. The two of you and basically 5 Engine?
A. Right.
Q. When you finally did get out, you headed
towards West Street?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. That same corner that you turned was with the
walkway?
A. No, no, that wasn't a walkway.
Q. When you left --
A. Okay, we went to the north walkway, so we
were going opposite, we were opposite of that walkway.
We were away from that walkway.
Q. You headed back maybe towards Church Street?
A. Yes, maybe, probably, yes.
Q. When you came out, maybe you were on Vesey
and made your way up to Church?
A. I don't think it was Vesey, because it was
all big like courtyards that we made our -- there was a
loading dock that we went down.
Q. Could it have been Barclay maybe?
A. I don't know, maybe. We were going opposite.
Q. You were east of where you were before?
A. Right. We weren't close to that -- the
walkway. We went way around.
15
G. KOZLOWSKI
Q. When you walked back towards West Street, did
you happen to see any apparatus maybe destroyed?
A. No, not at this point. They were all by the
walkway.
Q. The only ones that you can remember are 18
and 2 0?
A. When we pulled up?
Q. Right.
A. Yes, 55.
Q. You saw 55 Engine?
A. I think so, because they were usually right
there too.
Q. They would have been parked in front?
A. Yes. They would have been on West too. You
know, when we do respond there, that's where we always
park, right there.
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: If you have nothing
else that concludes the interview. Thank you.
File No. 9110309
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER ANTHONY SALERNO
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: The date is December
10, 2001. The time is eleven o'clock in the
morning .
This is Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of the
Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with Anthony Salerno,
fireman 1st grade, of Engine Company 24 of the
Fire Department of the City of New York.
The interview is taking place at the quarters
of Engine 24 regarding the events of September 11,
2001.
Q. Fireman Salerno, could you please tell me
what happened to you on September 11?
A. On September 11, I was on my way into the
city. Being on vacation, I had just come back from a
road trip. I was going to come in in the morning and
bullshit with the guys.
I had not known at the point when I woke up
that the buildings were attacked. On my way in, I
noticed the trade center on fire, turned on 1010, and
listened to the thing on my way in.
On my way in, the recall, the active recall,
was engaged. I had gotten to the firehouse probably
around ten after nine, was on the phone with Mike
A. SALERNO
Paolone. He was the --he was working in Queens. He
had told me to look across, look at the television. I
saw the first building come down.
At that point, I noticed a bunch of guys
coming into the firehouse -- Captain Varriale coming
in, Billy McCarthy, Frankie McCutchen, Chris McArdle.
We all had come in, and we were all ready to go down to
the trade center, knowing that both companies and the
battalion were down there.
We left the firehouse probably around a
quarter after nine with two volunteers. One, a
volunteer fireman, his first name was Tony. The second
guy was a construction worker whose brother had been
working at the trade center on the 110th Floor, I
believe.
We got down to -- we got down as far as West
Broadway and Chambers Street. At West Broadway and
Chambers, we drove down with Captain Varriale in his
pickup. We took some tools that we had grabbed out of
the firehouse and some EMS supplies.
We got down to West Broadway and Chambers.
We parked the rig. We walked down as far as West
Broadway, and I would say Barclay and came back up,
noticing that there was nothing but three blocks of
A. SALERNO
fire from Barclay down to Vesey, which would bring you
to the north tower of the trade center.
We found car fires. We found buses on fire,
but we happened to find a volunteer rig from the Bronx
that was still in there. It was a old LaFrance. I got
in the rig, backed the rig out with everybody helping,
parked the rig on West Broadway, and found the rig on
West Broadway between Barclay and Park, and backed the
rig out and hooked up to a hydrant on West Broadway and
Warren, and ended up supplying whatever lines we can
get off the rig with -- using whatever fittings we
could use off their rig, and I remember the water
pressure being very low.
We ended up putting out as many fires as we
could from West Broadway and Warren all the way down to
West Broadway and Vesey.
Putting out all those fires, in that interim,
the second building had come down. I remember hearing
a lot of explosions, the street turning completely
gray, gray clouds of smoke all over the place.
Everybody had stopped what they were doing and ran back
up the block.
We ran up West Broadway past Chambers,
regrouped when the dust settled, and there was a
A. SALERNO
command post that was established at the time. I
remember seeing Chief Daly and another chief -- I don't
remember his name -- coming down to West Broadway and
Barclay and setting up a command post.
I remember finding Engine Company 6's rig,
stripping that rig of fittings and hose to hook up to
anybody else. I remember at that time also they were
worried about Building 7 because when the second tower
came down, they were worried about parts of --
actually, when the first tower came down, they were
worried about parts of Building 7 collapsing, so I
remember getting into Building 7 and searching.
I got separated from the crew that I had gone
down with, because I stayed at the pump panel. They
had gone around the West Street side of the building
and into the rubble.
I hooked up with a Lieutenant Ryan from 15
engine and Richie Cipoletti from Engine Company 55. We
hooked up with as many people as we could.
We went to the command post, the true command
post, which was set up at that day on Broadway and
Chambers. We ended up getting assigned to a Staten
Island firehouse engine company. We manned a hose line
across the street from Tower 1 or what was remaining of
A. SALERNO
it, and I remember that building taking off in fire, so
there was really nothing we could do with our one hand
line.
I remember coming out of the building now
because they were afraid of Building 7 coming down, and
all the other buildings around it getting knocked
down. So they took us out of the building.
I remember Building 7 coming down, again,
with dust clouds, getting separated momentarily. I
remember Staten Island companies all over the place. I
remember a Brooklyn company coming, a Brooklyn engine
company coming in, when I was still hooked up on West
Broadway and Warren.
I don't remember the company's name, but it
definitely was a Brooklyn company. I used their rig
for parts also, and after the second building had come
down, they had left their rig and was part of the
command post on West Broadway and Barclay.
After that I stayed with the Staten Island
company for quite awhile. We ended up working with
some Brooklyn truck companies, and some Staten Island
engine companies, a Brooklyn chief, just going through
the various buildings after the building had gone down
to see if anybody was still in there or if we could do
A. SALERNO
anything, putting out various little fires that were
about from the rubble, and got back to my firehouse
probably around 11:30, 12 o'clock, September 11 night,
back to the quarters of Engine Company 24 and Ladder
5.
And that's what I did that day.
Q. Good. And you couldn't remember any of the
numbers of the Brooklyn companies, right?
A. No, I couldn't remember the Brooklyn
companies .
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Thank for you the
interview, and that's it.
File No. 9110310
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER CHARLES GAFFNEY
Interview Date: December 10, 2001
Transcribed by Maureen McCormick
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: The date is December
10, 2001. The time is 10:30 in the morning, and
this is Battalion Chief Ronald H. Kemly of the
Fire Department of the City of New York.
I am conducting an interview with the
following: Firefighter CHARLES GAFFNEY, fireman
1st grade, assigned to Engine 24, Fire Department
of the City of New York.
The interview is taking place at the quarters
of Engine 24 in the engine office regarding the
events of September 11, 2001.
Q. Fireman Gaffney, could you please tell me in
your own words what happened on September 11 and your
experience?
A. I just got relieved by a probie, one of the
seven-week probies in Ladder 5, about 8:30. Sitting in
the kitchen, tones went off. It was for the trade
center. A plane hit the trade center.
I thought it was an accident, and I turned on
New York 1, and I could see the hole in the building.
Myself, couple of other guys that just got off crossed
the street. We looked down the block, saw the trade
center and we said, "Oh, we better get down there."
Myself, Lieutenant Giammona, Jimmy Miller, Jimmy
C. GAFFNEY
Esposito got dressed, and we started down there.
On our way, Chief Prunty came by. He got
dressed and came down with us. We walked down to
Varrick Street. An off-duty firefighter pulled over
with a pickup truck. We got in the back. We headed
down there.
On our way down there, he told us that a
second plane --he heard on the radio that a second
plane had just hit the other tower. So we were all
discussing -- not panicking but discussing, you know,
what's going on here. It kind of dawned on us that it
was a terrorist attack at that point.
He drove us down there and dropped us off on
Vesey Street right by Tower 7, and we proceeded into
Tower 1 around the corner. We saw Engine 24 parked on
the corner. We stowed our shoes that we were carrying
with us at Engine 24.
We went into the Tower 1 lobby, and I noticed
the command post was already set up, saw Commissioner
Von Essen there in the lobby, and Battalion Chief
McGovern. We went to Battalion Chief McGovern.
Lieutenant Giammona told him, "Make us a unit. Put us
to work. We're here." He said, "Okay."
Lieutenant Giammona got a radio from
C. GAFFNEY
somewhere, and they made us Ladder 5-B, and we met 9
truck on their way up the stairs. We met 9 truck on
the way up the stairs, and there was another engine
company. I don't remember what engine company it was,
but I grabbed -- they were all carrying extra bottles,
and since we had no masks or no equipment, we grabbed
their extra gear and helped them. Me and Jimmy, Jimmy
Esposito, grabbed roll-ups and a bottle and carried it
upstairs for these guys, because they were
overburdened .
We walked up. We got up to about the 10th
Floor, and there was a chief on the floor who told
us -- I don't know what chief it was. I don't know who
he was. He said guys are already working their way
down. He wanted us to start working our way up
searching floors, going in on each floor, walking
around the perimeter of the building, looking to see if
anybody was on the floors, panicking, or trapped or
whatever. So me and Esposito started doing that.
Vinnie Giammona, he flew up the stairs in
front of us. Lieutenant Giammona, I should say. He
had a radio. He went up the stairs. We lost track of
him as we were searching the lower floors.
We made our way up to about the 21st Floor.
C. GAFFNEY
We met up with Engine 65 somewhere along the line
there, and we were kind of listening to the officer of
Engine 65 's radio. We heard like a continuous roar,
like a thunder, and the building shook.
All in between there was all foggy. I don't
remember what happened in between there. Like, all I
remember was once the building started shaking, I
forgot everything else that was going on. It was like
you were being thrown around on the floor.
We made our way into the stairway, and there
were a few guys from Engine 65 in that stairway. There
were no civilians in the stairs at that time. Most of
them had -- must have gotten out by then from below the
crash, but I remember hearing a radio transmission,
"Urgent!" I don't know who gave it, but I remember
hearing an "Urgent!" that all inside operations were
off. Everybody out of the building, and we all started
running down the stairs.
I remember seeing Faust, Battalion 28, on the
10th Floor in a doorway, and he was directing guys
down. He must have been waiting for Chief McGovern,
who had gone up ahead of us. I think he was on the
24th Floor. I left out -- I thought I heard -- I heard
a radio transmission, and I thought it was Lieutenant
C. GAFFNEY
Giammona, that he was on the 44th Floor, something
about an elevator. I'm not sure if there were people
in the elevator or he found an elevator that was
working, but he was trying to get through a message.
It was his voice. It was unmistakable, that he had an
elevator on the 44th Floor.
I do remember seeing Chief McGovern when we
were on 20 or so go past me on his way up, and on the
way down I saw his aide, Faust, and I said to Faust,
"Come on, get out of here. They are ordering us out.
Let's get out." He said he was waiting for the chief,
and then when we got down, when we finally got down to
the bottom, the lobby was a mess. It wasn't like a
clear run out of the building.
I went out the same way I came in, so I knew
where I was going. There was a pile of crap in the
lobby, marble, Sheetrock, all that stuff. It was
smoky, hazy, and when I got out in the street, it was a
cloud. I had no idea what time it was, how long I was
in there.
I remember running north at first under a
scaffolding that was up and looking to my left, which
was west, and I could see, so I ran west, and as I was
running west, there were a bunch of firefighters in the
C. GAFFNEY
street. I remember guys screaming, "It's coming down,"
so I was, like, running for my life.
When I got -- I ran as far as the water, and
then I started running north when I got to the water, a
little park. That was Vesey Street, I guess, I took to
the water. I started running north, and that pier,
whatever that one -- whatever you want to call that
ended, so you had to run back east to get further
north .
By that time, the second building had already
come down. I was shedding gear as I was running, so I
went back for my gear, so that I could go back and look
for people, because I wasn't sure where the guys I had
gone down with were. We all disbursed, so I was
looking for Jimmy Miller, and Jimmy Esposito and Vinnie
Giammona. I don't know when I met up with them again,
but I think it was on West Street, maybe a couple of
blocks north of Vesey.
I remember running into John Ottrando, who
was the engine chauffeur, when I ran out of the
building. When I started running west, I remember
seeing him, and he was covered in white, and I told him
to run. I don't know which way he ran. I think he ran
north as I was running west, and then little by little,
C. GAFFNEY
you know, started running into people, and that was
really all, and then we started going back looking for
people.
Q. I have a few questions, if you are finished.
A. Yeah. There are things I don't remember,
like parts I'm sure I'm forgetting, but I think about
things sometimes when I'm home or alone or something
and something will pop in my head, and I said, wow, I
forgot that even happened.
Q. Great. I mean not great that you remember
stuff like that, but you did a pretty good job here.
You were with those three guys, Lieutenant
Giammona, Miller and Esposito --
A. Right.
Q. -- originally?
A. When I got on -- I left this out. When we
got in the back of this guy's pickup truck, Chief
Prunty was with us on Varrick Street.
Q. Right.
A. Another SUV of some type pulled up, and he
said --he must have been an off-duty firefighter, too,
because he said to Chief Prunty, "Chief, get in with
us." One of the guys got out and went in the back and
let the chief in the front seat. They followed the
C. GAFFNEY
truck we were in, the pickup truck we were in. They
followed us, and the chief got out, and he came in the
lobby with us .
Then Chief Prunty I never saw again that
day. I don't know when he went to the command. I saw
him go to the command post. I don't know where he was
assigned to go, you know, what he was doing.
Nine truck we were with on the way up the
stairs, and we were carrying their bottles and their
roll-ups, whoever 's roll-ups they had. They had
roll-ups with them. It must have been an engine with
them. I'm not sure if it was 33.
I remember seeing the guys from 65 out in the
street after we got out, like, whoever the officer was
on 65 that day. It was his radio we were listening to
to get out of the building. I remember seeing them in
the street later, and we were all glad to see one
another that we got out.
Like I said, when everyone started running
down the stairs, firemen --it was all firemen. Nobody
knew where -- everybody ran in separate directions, and
there was an ironworker in the lobby -- I remember
that -- directing people out of the building, telling
them not to walk, to run, because there was stuff
10
C. GAFFNEY
falling .
I'd say there's a lot -- there are so many
things -- like, on our way in, we had to avoid jumpers
or bodies coming down. I remember seeing one about 20
feet away from me as we were approaching the end of the
scaffolding before we went into Tower 1, and then as we
got there, one landed five feet from me.
Then one guy stood and looked up, and it was
like being in the military. He'd say, "Okay, come on.
Oh, hold up. Something is coming down. Hold up. All
right, come on. Come on," and it was bodies that were
coming down.
Q. When you say you went to the command post,
you said Tower 1, is that the north tower?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were operating basically from West
Street?
A. At the time, I didn't know that. I found all
that out later, which tower --
Q. Okay?
A. -- which tower we were in and whatever.
Q. All right. So that was where you saw the
commissioner, McGovern --
A. Yes.
11
C. GAFFNEY
Q. --in that lobby?
A. There was a bunch -- there was a command post
set up in that lobby, but when I had come back down,
they weren't in that lobby any more. That lobby was
pretty much destroyed, and there was nobody in there.
Q. Okay. So you hooked up with 9 truck. I
mean, you weren't ordered to, but you hooked -- do you
know which staircase it was, A, B, whatever, something
like that?
A. I'm pretty sure it was B. I'm not positive,
but I'm pretty sure it was B. I know I came down the
B, so I'm pretty sure it was the B I went up, because I
used that as a reference for getting out. I knew I
came up that way, so I knew my way down with that
staircase.
Q. Okay.
A. I remember being on about the 13th Floor and
opening the door. I heard a door being forced from the
outside of the stairway. A company was trying to get
in, so I went and opened the door for them, and that
was the A stairway, I believe, but I can't tell you
what company it was. I don't remember.
It was -- we were kind of like in a hurry. I
just popped the door, let those guys in, and continued
12
C. GAFFNEY
searching the floor.
Q. Okay. And the stairway that you saw 65, that
was B?
A. Yes.
Q. And Faust and McGovern, you figure were B,
the B staircase?
A. Yes, it was the staircase I was in. That was
B. I saw McGovern on there. I saw Faust. He was
standing on the 10th Floor. I don't know --he was
standing in the doorway.
Q. Okay.
A. He was, like, telling people, okay -- no, he
was, like, reassuring civilians, I guess, on their way
out, and then when I was on my way down, it was only
firemen, so I said to him, "Come on, Faust, get out.
They are ordering us out. Get out." He said, "I'm
going to wait for the chief."
Q. Okay. You came out the same way?
A. Yes.
Q. And --
A. As I came out of the stairs --
Q. -- you were running?
A. I remember making a right, climbing over a
pile of crap, and there was glass, thick glass,
13
C. GAFFNEY
everywhere. It was like running on ice, you know,
glass on top of glass sliding around.
I remember an ironworker being in the lobby,
and I ran into the ironworker later. I wound up
knowing him, but I didn't realize who he was at the
time.
Q. Okay. If you saw Otto, who was with 24 --
did you see any other rigs in the street at any time,
whether they were crushed or the way in?
A. On the way in, I saw Squad 18 's rig was right
in front, I think.
Q. In front of the tower or in front of the
hotel?
A. In front of the tower.
Q. Okay.
A. In front of Tower 1. I think Lieutenant
Giammona grabbed a mask out of there.
Q. Okay.
A. We went to 24 first on the way in, and there
were no masks left or anything.
Q. Where was he parked?
A. He was on the corner --he was on West Street
facing south right off Vesey, and then it's the same
place he was parked for the first trade center. That
14
C. GAFFNEY
sticks in my mind.
I was at that one, too, in '93, and Otto was
driving also, and he parked in the same spot for both
incidents .
Q. Okay. Now, when you were running out and
everything, you didn't happen to notice any of the
other front pieces, who they were?
A. What do you mean? The guys I was running
with?
Q. Yes, or when you came back, did you see any
other apparatus crushed or 6 --
A. I remember the civilians in the street, like
they were in the lobby, like, pooling in the lobby
instead of going out of the building.
I guess they were having a hard time getting
over the debris and stuff, but coming down the stairs,
there were no civilians in the stairway.
Q. Okay.
A. As I came out, Otto was standing in the
middle of West Street at Vesey by the island. He was
covered in white. He said he had --he dove behind a
wall or something and just got covered with the cloud.
He was in shock.
Q. Okay. If you have nothing else, this
15
C. GAFFNEY
concludes the interview. Thank you very much.
A. Thank you. I mean, that's all I can
remember. I mean, I remember seeing people in the
street not that were in the building. I remember
seeing companies, like, standing watching.
Q. Well, can you remember who they were?
A. I saw --
Q. And where they were?
A. I saw one of the guys from 55 engine on the
opposite side of West Street at Vesey standing -- 33
engine was on that corner on Vesey facing east, I guess
on the west side of West Street.
Q. And this is after the collapses or before?
A. This was after the first one, which I didn't
even realize was a collapse until I got down to the
street, but before the second.
Q. Okay, so they were on Vesey and West?
A. Right. They were on Vesey actually facing
east .
Q. Anybody else?
A. I remember running into guys from 8 truck who
were coming from company medical. They were -- they
sent them back from the medical office.
Q. You don't know where you met them?
16
C. GAFFNEY
A. I met them by the water. I met them by the
water. I met -- there were also two guys from 55
engine. I don't think they were working. Paddy
Schuppel and Pete Metzger. I don't know if they were
working or not, but I met them by the water. I don't
think they were working. They must have come later.
They were clean .
Q. Okay. If there is nothing else, we can
conclude the interview.
A. I think that's about all I can remember right
now.
Q. You can keep going as long as you want.
A. No, that's all I can remember really.
BATTALION CHIEF KEMLY: Okay, thank you very
much .
File No. 9110314
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL PALONE
Interview Date: December 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
M. PALONE 2
CHIEF KEMLY: Today's date is December
12, 2001. The time is 1515. This is
Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of the Fire
Department of the City of New York. I'm
conducting an interview with the following
individual: Michael Palone, fireman first
grade, Engine Company 24 of the Fire
Department of the City of New York. The
interview is taking place in the office of
Engine Company 5 regarding the events of
September 11th, 2001.
Q. Fireman Palone, please tell me what
happened in your own words on September 11th,
2001.
A. On September 11th after the two planes
hit the World Trade Center, I heard about the
recall over the phone and headed into the city.
When I arrived at the firehouse, a bunch of guys
were getting into Captain Variale's pickup truck.
I grabbed my stuff, jumped in the back of the
pickup truck and went down Seventh Avenue down to
the site.
As we got down to the site, there were
also two car fires. We tried extinguishing car
M. PALONE 3
fires on the way down. We had a problem with the
water pressure. There was no water pressure out
of the hydrants. We tried hooking up to a
pumper, basically trying to put out the car
fires, not too much success because of the water
problem.
We went into World Trade Seven to try
and get their standpipe system to possibly use
their water off their tank on the roof. Then
from there we met a bunch of people outside of 5,
hooked up with Darren Lebow and Kevin -- what's
Kevin's last name that used to work there?
Anyway, I hooked up with a couple of
guys and went into the basement of five, got
right next to the collapse, searched for people,
searched through the cars in the bottom of five,
couldn't find anybody. I went back up to the
street level and ended up going around to the
front of five where 5 Truck, 24 Engine was and
went up onto the mezzanine into the building
there and searched through there for a while. We
were ordered out of there. We came out of there.
We went back down and hooked up with
Craig Monahan, I believe, Jeff Anstead, myself,
M. PALONE 4
Bobby Beddia and went from where we were on West
Street under the walkway bridge. That would put
us in between the two walkway bridges and across
the pile of rubble into I believe it was the B
stairway, where they were searching for Ladder 6.
We hooked up with a guy from rescue who
was lowering down a civilian and tied the rope
off from him. A guy from rescue in the top of
the staircase lowered the civilian down and then
slid down himself and then went down those
stairs.
They were getting the woman Sylvia out,
basically helped carry her out on the stretcher.
6 came out somewhere there when we were there. 6
Truck came out. We were there for a while trying
to get Battalion Chief Prunty, who was trapped
under the steel in the bottom of the staircase.
There were a couple of other companies
down there; I'm not sure who. We were down there
for a while until we were ordered off, because
they were worried about Seven coming down. We
ended up coming out of there and going off the
rubble and then over towards the marina, cleaning
up our eyes and just basically getting ourselves
M. PALONE
back together until we went back to the
firehouse. I don't really know times.
Q. Just a couple quick questions. Darren
Lebow --
A. 5 Truck.
Q. He was from 5 Truck?
A. Yeah.
Q. You operated with him for quite --
A. Right. When we went down into the
bottom of five, we got right next to the bottom
of the collapse, and we were in there pretty
close. Kevin Anderson was with us. It was me,
Lebow, Kevin Anderson.
We basically grabbed any tools we could
out of a Port Authority suburban that was down
there. Anything that we thought we could use we
grabbed and tried to do whatever we could.
Q. But it was just the three of you at
that point?
A. It was the three of us at that point.
Then when we came back up, we hooked up -- I
think 5 Truck was there with the captain of 5 and
the rest of 5 Truck and then hooked up with
Monahan and Beddia and Anstead and then actually
M. PALONE 6
went over to that B stairway.
Q. You saw 5 and 24 's rigs?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were they located?
A. 5's ladder was going up to Five World.
I believe that was five world, and 24 Engine was
just behind them.
Q. On what street?
A. On West Street.
Q. When you say the chief ordered you
out -- you didn't say chief. You said somebody
ordered you out of the building.
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. I think it might have been Blaich. I'm
not sure. It was a division chief who was
ordering us out for a while.
Q. When you said you hooked up with
Monahan, Beddia and all of those guys, those are
the members of Engine 24 and Ladder 5, just to
clarify that?
A. Yes.
Q. And the guy from rescue that was going
down, do you know what rescue it was?
M. PALONE "i
A. I don't know what rescue it was. I
think it might have been -- I'm not sure. I
don't know.
Q. Okay.
A. He was up above us. He was looking to
tie the rope off, I tied it off to the banister,
and Jeff Anstead was with me. He went up to see
if he could help him, but it was up there and
everything was a little compromised. He didn't
know what he was stepping on and everything else.
It was just a little unstable.
Q. Okay. If you have nothing else, this
will conclude the interview.
A. That's it.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
File No. 9110317
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER GEORGE RODRIGUEZ
Interview Date: December 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
G. RODRIGUEZ 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time is 11:01 a.m.,
and this is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan
of the New York City Fire Department, Safety
Battalion. I'm conducting an interview with
George Rodriguez, firefighter first grade of
Ladder 22, in the quarters of Ladder 22.
Q. George, just tell us the events as you
recall them on September 11th.
A. On September 11th we weren't dispatched
to go down to the World Trade Center until the
second plane hit the building. We responded by
getting on the West Side Highway at 96th Street
and subsequently went southbound until we reached
the towers.
I was assigned to Ladder Company 22,
but I'm a recent transfer from the engine. I
happen to be an engine company chauffeur and was
assigned to drive Engine 76 that day.
En route we met up with Ladder Company
25 on the West Side Highway. We traveled
southbound together and arrived at the towers at
approximately the same time.
Upon arrival I dropped off the members
of my company, which was Engine 76 that day, on
G. RODRIGUEZ 3
Vesey and West. They proceeded with their
equipment to the command post, and I proceeded to
go east on Vesey to seek out a source of water
and/or to assist any other chauffeurs I saw down
there.
I first parked my apparatus
approximately 75 feet east of West Street on
Vesey. I sized up the situation. Pretty much
all the hydrants in the area were taken.
At that point I grabbed some standpipe
tools from my apparatus, and I proceeded to walk
east on Vesey to assist any other chauffeurs as
necessary. Pretty much all of that was being
done.
I remember at that point looking up at
the towers. The operation was growing in size.
Many civilians were coming out the windows or
being blown out the windows.
As much as I didn't want to, I went up
on the concourse in between the north and south
towers to actually see if there was any help I
could render to anyone; there wasn't.
I came back down to the street. I met
up with Commissioner Von Essen at that time. I
G. RODRIGUEZ 4
told the Commissioner what I saw on the
concourse. His response is not that important.
So I proceeded to get back into my rig
and drive down Vesey. I took a L) turn and I came
back. I saw the maintenance crew to Seven World
Trade Center standing there watching the
building. I gathered them up and asked them if
they had fire pumps in the building. They did.
I had a Siamese directly across
Washington Street on Vesey going into the towers,
so I used the maintenance men and an engine
company chauffeur from 26 Engine named Mike
Incantalupo. I used him to hook up a source of
water from their fire pumps to my rig and into
the World Trade Center, which the Siamese was
located right below Six World Trade Center, the
U.S. Customs building.
At that point we were supplying the
standpipe Siamese. All was going well with that.
The operation was growing in intensity. At that
point the preliminary sounds of the collapse
started, the loud crackling sounds. We all
started running, because I think the energy
coming down through the cylinders of the building
G. RODRIGUEZ 5
because of the pancake, the energy came out first
and then the actual debris started coming.
So we all ran. Myself and the
chauffeur of 26 Engine grabbed about 30 civilians
as well as the maintenance men, and we put them
all in the basement of Seven World Trade Center.
At that point all power was off in the buildings.
The only means of egress was out onto Washington
Street, which was totally covered with debris and
ash. You couldn't get out the door. There was
no means of egress from that particular point in
the basement.
So I gave a mayday. I heard a lot of
other maydays on the radio; I couldn't even
pinpoint to you which ones. I gave a mayday:
"Mayday, mayday, mayday. This is Engine 76
chauffeur to command post. I'm trapped in the
basement of Seven World Trade Center with
approximately 30 civilians and another fireman."
I got no answer, but I figured guys were in much
worse situations, so I just shut up on the radio
and listened.
Two of the civilians didn't want to
stay in the basement. They wanted to get out
G. RODRIGUEZ 6
because it was a smoke condition down there and a
lot of ash. You couldn't really breathe that
well, but it was much better than outside.
We tried to block the door so they
wouldn't go out. The situation wasn't going to
get good with that, so I stepped aside, let them
run out. Unfortunately for them they ran to the
left, which happened to be right towards Vesey
Street, which was the wrong way to go. I never
saw those two again.
It seemed like an eternity. As it
started lifting, myself and the chauffeur of 26
Engine removed all the civilians to the right
down Washington Street towards Barclay and
evacuated them from the area.
At that point we still were hearing
maydays over the radio from right in our area,
from Vesey and Washington. So we made our way
down to try and see if we can help another
fireman. Actually the mayday was coming from --
I'm not sure if it was Vesey and Washington.
There was a bridge there going from the Trade
Center to seven world, and it was right under
that area we were hearing the maydays from.
G. RODRIGUEZ 7
So we went down Washington, took a
left, which is east on Vesey, and we started
looking for this guy that was in trouble. No
luck in finding him.
At that point that sound came back, and
the second tower started to go, which happened to
be tower number one. We did everything we could
to make it back to Washington and turn northbound
on Washington. As we turned the corner, the
rubble started coming down, but the energy caught
us first. I think it was a lucky thing because
the energy actually picked us up and threw us
about 40 feet.
We rolled on the ground. We kind of
got separated. I had my mask on.
Q. You had your face piece on too?
A. No. I just had the mask on and the
cylinder turned on. The other chauffeur didn't,
so when we got separated he was in a real bad
way.
I looked up. That was it. I didn't
really realize I was alive until I started
hearing him call my name. I searched around for
him. I donned my face piece. I searched around
G. RODRIGUEZ 8
for him, found him, buddy- breathed with him. I
took him down Washington, east on Barclay, north
on whatever street that is and put him in an
ambulance.
At that point I went back and I started
searching for my company, which I thought both
companies were gone because they had gone into
the command post. After the second collapse
there wasn't really much chatter on the radio.
So the silence was actually the worst part of it
all, you know?
Basically that's it. I really can't
recall which companies I saw going into the
buildings.
Q. Okay.
A. I saw companies going up on to the
concourse. That's where a lot of civilians were
coming and hitting the ground like water
balloons. Prior to the collapses we grabbed a
couple civilians out of there.
It was so crazy at that moment. There
was just no answers on the radio. You just did
all you could. My rig was gone. I thought my
companies were gone. I knew a lot of other
G. RODRIGUEZ 9
companies were gone. You just picked an area and
started digging.
You actually had to pass over seriously
injured people to help more seriously injured
people. That was insane in itself. The
conception of that is crazy.
Q. Were you able to meet up with your
company later or not?
A. The first person I saw was Chief
McNally. I guess whatever situation he had been
involved with, as soon as the situation got to a
point where he could make it towards the
buildings again, he came back in. He could
barely even talk because of everything that was
going on, myself included.
I heard Chief Harten from the 10th
Battalion on the radio trying to get in touch
with McNally, and McNally 's radio died. So I
said, "Don't worry, Chief, I'll send it for you."
I couldn't get Harten either on the radio. The
reason I know them, because they were both
battalion chiefs here.
I told Chief McNally, "I'll go over
there and I'll go personally deliver your
G. RODRIGUEZ 10
message." I went over and I did that. On the
way we had helped a couple people out. On the
way to go deliver the chief's message, I ran into
my engine officer, Frank Farrington.
At that point we started to try and get
a head count, all right, what have we got, who's
alive, who's not alive. Let's start with our
company, we'll group up, we'll go and get whoever
is there.
There was a lot of firemen. The
firemen that were remaining after the collapses
were trying to regroup with their guys and then
go back and help other people. That's pretty
much what I found.
It turned out that all the guys in the
engine that day made it. Then we started hearing
the different truck names, they made it, and the
only one in question at that point was Chief
Picciotto and his aide, Gary Sheridan.
Then we got the orders that we were
going to regroup. Bring out another command
post. I'm not sure exactly where it was. It was
probably north on the West Side Highway. Way
north on the West Side Highway, they got another
G. RODRIGUEZ 11
command post ready. They had a full recall. I
met up with my company, and I came back and we
started searching for people.
That's pretty much my whole account of
the situation.
Q. All right. Thanks a lot, George.
A. Thank you, Chief.
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 11:13,
and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110318
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER FERNANDO CAMACHO
Interview Date: December 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
F. CAMACHO 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time is 11:17 a.m.,
and this is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan,
Safety Battalion of the Fire Department of
the City of New York. I am conducting an
interview with Fernando Camacho of Ladder
22, in the quarters of Ladder 22.
Q. Fernando, describe the events as you
recall them on September 11th.
A. On the morning of September 11th I was
on house watch, and it was about 8:00. A little
bit after 8, because I was watching the news, I
saw the first airplane or it would seem, an
explosion on one of the towers; I believe it was
the north tower. Chief Picciotto came down,
called the dispatcher and went out on his way
down.
Approximately 15 minutes later, both
the engine and the truck, we got our tickets to
go down to the World Trade Center. It took us
about maybe 20 minutes to get there. We came out
of our truck prepared to receive our orders,
walked down to the command post which was across
the street on the West Side Highway. It was
across the street from the north tower. We
F. CAMACHO 3
waited there approximately about 15 minutes for
our orders.
After we waited for a while, we were
told to go into the lobby of the Vista Hotel. We
proceeded along the right side of the highway,
basically the same side of the command post, down
to the south pedestrian bridge, under the
pedestrian bridge, to avoid being hit by bodies
and debris going down.
We came in through the corner of
Liberty and the West Side Highway into the Vista
Hotel. There was a setup, a small command post
or small gathering of firefighters there with a
couple of chiefs. I can't tell who they were. I
don't remember that.
We were in there approximately another
ten minutes. Lieutenant Riley came back from
talking to the chief, and we were assigned to go
to the 75th floor. We got our equipment together
and started walking up. Ladder 25 had gone ahead
of us about five minutes before we got assigned
to go to the 75th floor.
We went across the lobby of the hotel,
going north, and we exited and made a right going
F. CAMACHO 4
towards the second tower, the south tower. We
must have walked about 100-200 feet to revolving
doors, which led into a hallway to where the mall
was. I could see maybe 20, 25 civilians and I
believe Ladder 25, which was about another 100 to
150 feet ahead of us.
As we came in through the revolving
doors, the lights went out. A second or two
later everything started to shake. You could
hear explosions. We didn't know what it was. We
thought it was just a small collapse.
As I looked straight ahead of me, I saw
total darkness. Everything was coming our way
like a wave. The firefighters that were ahead of
us and the civilians that were ahead of us
totally disappeared.
We turned around. We were all pretty
much within ten feet of each other: lieutenant,
chauffeur, roof, OV, can. As we turned around, I
ran probably maybe ten feet and that's when the
body of the building or body of the collapse hit,
and we were flying through the air basically. I
must have flown 30, 40 feet through the air.
Then total quiet. You couldn't
F. CAMACHO 5
breathe. You couldn't see anything. None of the
equipment worked. My face piece was gone,
flashlight, helmet. There were about maybe five
or six civilians around us. We tried to get them
out, as we tried to make our way out.
We did a perimeter search. Everything
behind us was blocked and to our sides. We came
back out basically through the same way we came
into the building. We were facing the West Side
Highway now, but there was a hole in the side of
the building. So that's how we found our way
out .
The only thing I know is that it was
the roof, the OV and myself that got out. I had
the can. Lieutenant Riley and the chauffeur we
couldn't find. We didn't know if they were
trapped or they made their way out in some other
fashion. We found out later that they did make
their way out, through another exit or behind us.
The West Side Highway was still pretty
clear. There wasn't a lot of debris in front of
us. We made our way north underneath the
pedestrian bridge that's to the north. As we
approached the rig again, I was being tended by
F. CAMACHO 6
EMS for head wounds.
Five minutes after that the north tower
started to lean.
Q. You saw it leaning?
A. Yeah.
What happened was that as I was
standing there and getting bandaged, somebody
said the tower is leaning. So me and Gorman --
he had the irons. We turned around and looked,
and we could see the tower leaning. As it
started to lean, it just came straight down. Now
we're running again.
Q. Which way was it leaning? Towards West
Street?
A. The tower was leaning not towards -- it
leaned somewhat northwest but not -- it came down
pretty straight after it leaned. It didn't
really continue to lean. It just leaned a little
bit and then came straight down.
Basically that's it. We ran and we
went into the high school that's I believe
somewhere --
Q. On Chambers.
A. Chambers, yeah. It might be Chambers,
F. CAMACHO 7
a little further up from Chambers Street. We
came back out after the cloud passed us and
started helping out people that couldn't breathe
or were injured.
That's basically the bulk of the
information I can give.
Q. Fine. Let me get one thing straight.
From the time you noticed the leaning to the time
of it coming down, are we talking about seconds
here?
A. No more than three, four seconds.
Q. All right. Thank you for all your
help, Fernando.
A. No problem.
CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 11:27,
and this concludes the interview.
File No. 9110319
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOHN MALLEY
Interview Date: December 12, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins
J. MALLEY 2
CHIEF KENAHAN: It's December 12th,
2001. The time is 11:31 a.m., and this is
Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan, Safety
Battalion of the Fire Department of the City
of New York. I'm conducting an interview
with Firefighter John Malley of Ladder 22,
in the quarters of Ladder 22.
Q. John, just tell us the events as you
recall them on September 11th.
A. We responded on the second fifth alarm,
work our way down. The streets were kind of
cleared, and the police had everything opened.
We got there pretty fast; I don't know how fast,
but record time to get all the way down there
from here.
We pulled up on West Street, maybe a
block away from the north tower, maybe half a
block; I'm not sure. We grabbed our gear and
worked our way down. We were right under the
north tower when we realized people were jumping
right very close to us. So we had to run across
the street to avoid being hit by debris and
people.
As we're halfway across the street, we
J. MALLEY 3
hear on the radio about an urgent message or a
mayday message about a third plane en route. So
we kind of froze there. We said now what do we
do? Do we go back into the building or take
cover under where the command post was in the
garages.
So the men went to the garage, and the
officer went to the command post. We stood there
and watched everybody jumping and waiting for our
assignments, for our officer to come back.
People started to jump with such a --
it was maybe one jumper every five seconds at one
point, every ten seconds. Then they just started
jumping like one every one second, two seconds.
There were people just coming down like it was
raining people.
One of the officers -- I don't remember
who -- said that's it, we've got to do something.
Truck companies on the left, engine companies on
the right, we'll start going single file. We
can't wait any longer.
So we were going in not knowing where
this third plane, whether this plane was coming
or not. I remember hearing I think it was Ganci
J. MALLEY 4
asking if we could get confirmation on whether
the military can down the plane or not. I didn't
hear whether it was or wasn't. All I know is we
were going in regardless.
We proceeded to hug the west side of
West Street to avoid any debris. We went from
the north walkway to the south walkway pedestrian
bridge, where we went from the pedestrian bridge
one at a time, ran into the Liberty entrance of
the Vista Hotel.
At that point we were just mulling
around in the lobby, waiting for our assignments.
I believe I might have seen the guys from 25. I
was kind of shocked, so I don't really know who I
was talking to.
I was dreading walking up the stairs.
I was worried about having to hump those stairs,
because my heart was already racing about 150
beats a minute. It was racing, and I knew that
claiming those stairs were going to make it
almost unbearable.
We proceeded. We got our assignment to
work the 75th floor and above of the south tower.
We proceeded through. We went north through the
J. MALLEY 5
Vista Hotel lobby into the atrium, I believe, of
the north tower, made a right turn, proceeded
east in the atrium, preparing to go through
revolving doors into -- I don't know because it
was pitch-black. We were walking into darkness.
As we walked through those revolving
doors, that's when we felt the rumble. I felt
the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at
me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my
mind it was a bomb going off.
The pressure got so great, I stepped
back behind the columns separating the revolving
doors. Then the force just blew past me. It
blew past me it seemed for a long time. In my
mind I was saying what the hell is this and when
is it going to stop?
Then it finally stopped, that pressure
which I thought was a concussion of an explosion.
It turns out it was the down pressure wind of the
floors collapsing on top of each other. At that
point everything went black, and then the collapse
came. It just rained on top of us. Everything
came. It rained debris forever. I was
semiburied. I thought I might be the only one
J. MALLEY 6
alive at that point, because it was just an
incredible amount of debris falling around us.
Although I was relatively unhurt -- it
was miraculous. I couldn't believe I was still
alive, with the amount of debris that came down.
At that point I was amazed I was still alive.
When I stood up, I thought I was going to drown
in the dust, because I didn't know the dust was
coming because it was pitch-black.
Then I went to put on my mask to don
the face piece. I don't know if my face was so
covered with dust or the mask was covered with
dust, but it was pretty useless.
I hopped up when I could. I heard one
of my members calling Ladder 22 to have a roll
call. So we pretty much were scurrying around in
the dark, we found each other, everybody but the
lieutenant. We couldn't find the lieutenant. We
had all five members.
There were secondary explosions, I
don't know, aerosol cans or whatever. But we're
in the darkness. We see basically the glow of a
flashlight and still things coming down. The
noise, the explosions, whatever it was. I don't
J. MALLEY 7
know, we just realized we had to get the heck out
of there.
We still couldn't breathe. There was
still heavy dust. So we started to make our way
out. We said let's dig our way out and then
we'll come back for the lieutenant.
As I started to proceed in the
direction I felt was the way I came in, I felt
wind, so I walked towards the wind. The guys I
was with were getting further away, and I was
trying to explain to them that it's this way. I
said, "It's this way. It's this way. I can feel
the wind." They were saying, "No, no. It's this
way." So I continued on my own.
I met a civilian. The civilian asked
me what he should do. I said, "Stay with me.
I'm going to walk into the wind, and we'll get
out of here." I continued to walk, and then I
realized that I was about a foot away from a fire
truck. I felt I must be outside now, although I
wasn't a hundred percent sure because I could
have been in a garage. I don't know because it
was still completely dark.
As I was at the fire truck, I heard my
J. MALLEY 8
lieutenant calling me, so I answered him. I
relayed to him that everybody was okay and we
were working our way outside. He said he's on
his way outside, that we would meet outside.
That's when I realized I was outside,
because something landed right behind me. It
sounded like a body. The same sound that I heard
before when the bodies were landing was similar
to the sound that I just heard.
Then it occurred to me that I was in
harm's way right now, because I'm underneath this
thing and I could get hit and not know because I
can't see it coming. So I decided to run what I
thought was west. It turns out it was. I ran
across the street. I was tripping over people
and hoses and everything.
I worked my way up to that green fence.
There was a green fence. I had worked my way
back into the Vista Hotel, and that's how I got
out. I could start to see daylight north. So I
started walking towards the daylight. The first
time I stopped I was under the north foot bridge.
While I was standing there, things
started to clear up. One of the chiefs that I
J. MALLEY 9
know, Chief McNally, told me to stand post on
Vesey and West Street and try to get everybody I
could to go north to get away from the collapse
zone.
So while I was standing there, EMS
workers started to try to clean me up because I
was completely covered in dust. My eyes were
almost sealed shut with the dust.
While I was there I saw a few guys,
Kevin Gorman and Camacho. I told them we have to
work our way north from here. I don't know where
the other guys were. I just remember pretty much
at that point hearing on the police radio that
the building looked like -- the north tower was
going to come down.
At that point I didn't know the
building came down. I thought I was still in the
explosion. I didn't know the whole building had
come down.
So while I was on the corner of Vesey
and West, the police, everybody, started herding
everybody north of there, saying that the
building was coming down, the building was coming
down.
J. MALLEY 10
So I got to about Barclay and west, and
I looked up and I started to see the building
crumbling down. That's when I turned around and
just started running. I believe I dove in the
bushes around Murray Street and was engulfed
again in the cloud.
That's pretty much it. Then we worked
our way north to the command post. We were
relieved there by the guys that were on the
recall. They started taking our masks and gear
and everything.
I was so covered with insulation dust
and everything, I was itching like crazy. I
hosed myself off on West Street. It wasn't doing
anything, so we all got together at that point.
We were standing at the command post, wherever it
was, north of the Trade Center.
At that point the lieutenant said he
was going to go let them know that all our
members were accounted for. We told him that we
were going to try to find a local firehouse to go
shower off.
That was it .
Q. Okay, John. Thank you very much.
J. M
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